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lionoferebor
Rohan
Aug 11 2015, 5:04pm
Post #1 of 9
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'Throw him over the ramparts'
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...yes, we all know the scene. Thorin is crushed by Bilbo's betrayal and orders the Dwarves to dispose off Bilbo. When no one makes a move he searches the crowd and randomly selects Fili. At least that is how I saw it, until I watched BOFA again the other day...now I'm not so sure Fili was randomly chosen.
While Thorin could've chosen anyone, he probably would've first chosen someone close to him. Someone whose always been loyal to him not just on the quest, but throughout his life. The most likely candidates are: Dwalin, Kili, and Fili.
(I would count Balin but I think even in his dragon-sick mind Thorin knows Balin would not even to begin to consider following through with such an order).
First Thorin looks to the Dwarves behind Bilbo, who include Dwalin. Dwalin, has been a loyal friend and shield-brother of Thorin for years. Up until that moment in the films he's followed Thorin's orders without question. Yet Thorin doesn't call on him.
He then turns to the group at his right which includes Kili, who - as another poster has previously pointed out - has remained close to Thorin since arriving at Erebor. Even before, Kili was on of the most loyal of the Company, always eager to please his uncle and King. And while Kili did plead for Thorin to help the Lake-men, unlike his brother up to that moment he has not been openly defiant toward Thorin. Yet Thorin doesn't call in him.
Last Thorin turns to the group where Fili stands. Heir status aside, Fili is equally faithful to Thorin and overall is also eager to please him. However, unlike Dwalin and Kili he has openly gone against Thorin's wishes...i.e. 'I belong with my brother.' Yet the moment Thorin's eyes land on Fili, he's grabbing and yelling at him to carry out his orders.
Of course Fili refuses. And while Thorin was a bit taken back when no one volunteered, the look on his face is utter disbelief. As if he had actually expected Fili to follow through, but instead Fili twisted the knife in his back.
Think about it. Thorin looks over eleven other Dwarves - two of whom are loyal to the core and equal likely candidates as Fili - before choosing Fili.
It could be random, but I don't think so.
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Elanor of Rohan
Lorien
Aug 11 2015, 5:19pm
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I don't know if it's wishful thinking, but I am sure they wanted Thorin to choose Fili, because Fili ... well he should be special to Thorin, at least in theory.
Fili is the heir, the continuity of the line of Durin: who can follow in Thorin's footsteps? Who is the next in line?
Therefore, this is one of the few scenes which underline this hidden motiv. Pj knew that, but he made other "more popular" choices: in this scene we have something more faithful to Tolkien's idea.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Aug 11 2015, 5:20pm
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I still think he specifically singled out Fili, and I think it was deliberate on the part of PJ to again show that Fili is the chosen heir to the Throne. But as for the first part, he had been facing the dwarves behind Bilbo while talking to Bilbo. Those dwarves included both Dwalin and his cousins Oin and Gloin, so I suppose Thorin did expect them to do what he said. But of course they didn't. As you said, he looks around in disbelief. Also, when Fili first heard the command he actually turned his back on Thorin - I mean, that said something right there! Which I think is the reason Thorin grabbed him, to turn him around and MAKE him comply. But instead Fili physically breaks free from Thorin and again turns away. Then when Thorin grabs Bilbo Fili says "No!" while attempting to stop him. I believe that's the only line he has after getting to Erebor
And while we're on the subject, notice that the first scene on the ramparts, after Bard rides away and Bilbo is questioning Thorin about the elves and being surrounded, that Fili has an expression of doubt on his face. He's thinking the same thing Bilbo is thinking, but unlike Bilbo isn't questioning or objecting at all. None of the dwarves are, which probably explains why Thorin expected them to throw Bilbo over, and why he was so shocked when they didn't.
*Sigh* Another Fili thread - because he deserved better!
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 11 2015, 5:39pm
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I think you're right, and it's a good point...
[In reply to]
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I think it links back to the moment Fili defied him before, in Laketown, when Thorin tried to make Fili act like his heir rather than Kili's brother. I can't remember the exact words but he reminds Fili that he will one day be king. And it's not the first time Thorin singles Fili out in BotFA either - there's also the moment when he throws the jewel to Fili.
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Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Rivendell
Aug 11 2015, 6:58pm
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Like others have mentioned, Thorin expects Fili to obey him; he's an actual prince now, and he needs to follow orders. In Thorin's mind, he has reclaimed the kingdom for himself and his nephews, and he's most likely shocked that Fili would defy him (again) here.
That brings up a question...would Fili officially be the second in command?
Justice for Fili
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Aug 11 2015, 7:12pm
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and am writing a "fanfic" around the idea that Fili decides to cut a deal with Bard, and gets a fair amount of support. The pros and cons are that 1. he's heir to the throne, and 2. he's proven himself in battle, BUT 1. There are older dwarves there who may not follow him, and 2. Thorin could always disinherit him. I think Balin could also be a potential leader, simply in that he negotiated with Bard for passage, he's both knowledgeable and experienced, he can fight, and he's one of the oldest dwarves there, plus he's a cousin of Thorin so he's probably got some claim to the throne as well. It would be interesting to see which way Dwalin would go - he's extremely loyal to Thorin, but even HE questioned Thorin's decision regarding Dain; and after all, Balin is his older brother.
Hm, now THERE'S an interesting "what if?" What if, instead of giving away the Arkenstone, Bilbo convinced the Dwarves to choose another leader - either Fili or Balin - and cut a deal with Bard & Thranduil? Technically, if Bilbo gave the Arkenstone to one of them, wouldn't that make him King Under the Mountain??? I don't know if that would ever happen, though, Dwarves are "loyal to a fault," as Bilbo says.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Elanor of Rohan
Lorien
Aug 11 2015, 7:45pm
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and would not make alliances with men lightly.
Anyway, the Laketown survivors could have reasonably looked upon Fili as their leader, because chances were that Thorin was killed or wounded after Smaug's escape.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Aug 11 2015, 10:22pm
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I really hope there's an extended moment where Bilbo talks to the rest of the dwarves on the ramparts after he questions Thorin. He has this look on his face like "Come on, guys. Back me up here." Maybe this is where the rumored dialogue between Bilbo and Fili is supposed to happen. Of course that's probably just wishful thinking...
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 11 2015, 10:23pm
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I can't find an image I had, that talks about the importance of the dwarf king - but we see Thror never functioned not as king, that the dwarves do not mutiny against Thorin, and I think tellingly - tho the movie doesn't spell it out and it may have been for "heroic effect", that Dain calls for Thorin - the point being, from what I have read, the Dwarf King is a big deal, and Thorin is a direct descendent of Durin. It sounds as tho the true king is practically sacred to dwarves. At least the image I can't find talks about how dwarves would die for their king, and we do see in the movie a point being made of "rallying to their king".
This is just one comment, but to me, again, even the Poetic Edda refers to the creation of the King of the Dwarves, not just "dwarves". Thorin, Dain, Fili, and Kili would have been part of that tradition, which I am sure Tolkien knew.
http://freya.theladyofthelabyrinth.com/?page_id=21
In the Poetic Edda, dwarfs appear on the cosmic scene after three giantesses, “much knowing”, have arrived at the court of the Aesir. The three giantesses probably represent fate, being the same as the “much-knowing” norns that appear after human beings were created after the dwarfs. So it is fate that demands that the gods must create the dwarfs. The entry of the giantesses leads to all the powers meeting to a first cosmic parliament:
9. Then all the powers went to the high chairs of fate the sacrosanct gods to discuss this: Who owed the King of Dwarfs to be shaped from the blood of Fire and the limbs of the Dead [1]?
E.g., I suspect if the Arkenstone had been given to a dwarf they would have returned it to Thorin, probably sooner or later, or at most, "lost" it. Balin refers to the stone as the "birthright of their people" and Thorin is king irregardless - the stone is the "King's Jewel" and confers power, but I don't think that it confers RULE, per se - only a promise of allegiance by the other dwarf kingdoms.
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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But
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