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MirielCelebel
Rivendell
Aug 11 2015, 1:43pm
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Thorin and Aragorn: Exile Kings
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Hello everyone!
Below is a brief synopsis of one of my latest essays. When I write these articles (for submission to anthologies or for my own book projects) I love incorporating thoughts of average people into my writing. It isn't enough (for me at least) to just put my own opinion out there but to also say what others feel. Please let me know what you think of the snippet below. These are two very important and interesting characters in Tolkien's world. I am looking for how you may feel about 1). Each character individually, 2). How the two represent the concept of "hero," and 3). How, if at all, their roles in the films altered that concept. Thanks for your input (which is always so unique) and I hope you spark some conversation on this thread!
"There is a lot in common between the characters of Thorin Oakenshield from The Hobbit and Aragorn from The Lord of the Rings. Both are displaced kings who must vanquish an evil before they can reclaim their throne. The greatest difference between them is how they approach their individual journeys and their unique transformations. Thorin comes from a refugee family forced to flee their home but he is always surrounded by the support of his people and this is most evident by those who travel with him during the story. Aragorn has grown up among those who are not his kin and yet also wanders alone. Aragorn achieves his goals through selflessness and sacrifice both of his true love and in escorting Frodo to Mordor, but Thorin chooses a different path and falls victim to the dragon sickness which lies upon Erebor. Fans have still placed both characters in the hero category and this essay will address how each one contributes to the greater part of Tolkien’s legendarium."
"The Road goes ever on..."
Writing Bliss
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Aug 11 2015, 5:44pm
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let the hobbit do a crucial task
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I certainly see the parallels you are making between Aragorn and Thorin. I was also wondering whether there's an interesting contrast. Thorin nearly messes it all up by refusing to share Smaug's loot. But the last act of his life redeems this mistake somewhat - this is reminding me of Boromir more than Aragorn.
Aragorn doesn't mess things up notably, though he goes pretty wobbly in the latter half of Book II, torn between the apparent appointment with destiny that requires him to go to Gondor on the one hand, and his belief that, as a Gandalf surrogate, he ought to accompany Frodo. Book-Aragorn has that decision taken out of his hands (c.f. movie-Aragorn, who send Frodo off before turning back to fight the Uruks).
Maybe Thorin muffs his crucial decision - he ought to let Bilbo negotiate a fair share of the dragon horde, whereas Aragorn is backed into the correct decision (again, let the hobbit do a crucial task?)
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Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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MirielCelebel
Rivendell
Aug 11 2015, 9:51pm
Post #3 of 8
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I'm so glad you mentioned Boromir
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because in the essay I'm writing I also touch upon the similarities between Boromir's sacrifice and Thorin's. Very astute observation and I'm happy to see I was moving in the right direction. Thanks for the input!
"The Road goes ever on..."
Writing Bliss
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Aug 11 2015, 10:16pm
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...is the length of the exile. Aragorn was separated by many generations from the fall of the Northern Kingdom. The only living memory of those days resided in the Elves of Rivendell (and Gandalf, of course). For Thorin, of course, it was far more of a personal experience.
I think the emphasis on "dragon sickness" in the movies is greatly exaggerated from the book, in which Thorin was really sort of a selfish jerk right along. I don't think Tolkien saw the Dwarves as possessing the kind of inherent nobility of the Children (Elves and Men), although they were clearly tough, brave, and loyal.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Aug 12 2015, 9:36am
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They both have Ancestors who failed
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Much is made of this motif in PJ's films: Movie-Aragorn worries that he has "the same weakness" as Isildur. Movie-Thorin denies being like his gold-crazed ancestors, but this is immediately undermined visually by showing his profile in a series with grandiose statues of his predecessors.
Moving to the book, Thorin's father Thrain tried to use the treasure map of the Lonely Mountain, Gandalf tells us, and had "all sorts of unpleasant adventures" culminating in capture by Sauron. I don't recall book-Aragorn expressing any doubts about his ability not to repeat Isildur's mistake in taking the Ring. But still, both these exile Kings have examples from their forebears to ponder.
Of course there's more than one way of looking at Isildur's example. Isildur in LOTR can be read very consistently with his movie treatment - his end is ignominious, probably because of the influence of the Ring. In one of the Unfinished Tales, however, Tolkien was experimenting with a more noble Isildur, who (Thorin like?) has overcome his weakness, but to late to survive.
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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Belegorn
Registered User
Aug 14 2015, 5:58pm
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Aragorn did have some kin he grew up with. Elrond is really his uncle, and Arwen and her brothers are his cousins, and "with his mother was taken to dwell in the House of Elrond;". [Appendix A: The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen]
Aragorn was "the most hardy of living Men" [The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen] due to his many travels throughout Middle-earth. He knew land of Eriador like the back of his hand, he fought for both Rohan and Gondor in disguise, and went east and south among other men. I think he was severe like probably all of the Dúnedain, but he did draw people to him. Frodo said he would have asked him to come with him on his journey if Aragorn were not chosen by Elrond, and the people of Gondor held him in great esteem.
As a hero Aragorn did not seek self glorification although through his deeds he won the hand of Arwen from his uncle. He seemed like Gandalf in this regard, known among different people by different names and when he was done helping the people disappeared without a whisper. He was always fighting the long fight against Sauron, did not wish to take up Sauron's greatest weapon, and led the forces of Rohan and Gondor against Sauron in a final stand to give the Ring-bearer time and advantage to do his work.
During LotR I believe you sort of see the king slowly revealed in Aragorn. Faintly at first at the Council of Elrond and there is one instance where his station stands out strongly at Rohan.
It is not clear to me that the will of Théoden son of Thengel, even though he be lord of the Mark, should prevail over the will of Aragorn son of Arathorn, Elendil’s heir of Gondor… I command you not to touch it, nor to permit any other to lay hand on it. In this elvish sheath dwells the Blade that was Broken and has been made again. Telchar first wrought it in the deeps of time. Death shall come to any man that draws Elendil’s sword save Elendil’s heir. [TTT, bk. 3, ch. 6, The King of the Golden Hall]
His use of the Palantir, the wielding of Elendil's sword, and finally his healing abilities which were at first shown with Frodo and its significance revealed by Ioreth that "The hands of the king are the hands of a healer. And so the rightful king could ever be known." [[RotK, bk. 5, ch. 8, The Houses of Healing] There are of course instances where he even appears like a king, to the enemy, and to friends alike, but usually it was as a king in exile.
Thorin himself was a great warrior who fought at Moria where he got the nick Oakenshield. I don't know that he was bad or succumbed to evil. Like Boromir when he sees the Hobbit he does not think much of him, but who can blame him for that? He grew to trust Bilbo after he had proved himself.
Aragorn and Thorin both come from a long line of kings, the former from Elros to Elendil to Arvedui, and the latter from Durin's line.
I liked the movie Aragorn but I don't think it's clearly shown how he and the other Dúnedain are like supermen compared to other men and I think the only Palantir scene was with the Hobbit and you do not get to see him in action and him explain why he did what he did and how he could do it. < Cool run on sentence. Anyways I can't think much about Thorin right now, but those are my thoughts on Aragorm.
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Felagund
Rohan
Aug 23 2015, 2:22pm
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Aragorn (cont'd); Thorin & Aranarth
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A great idea to compare these two!
I wonder sometimes if the whole "Aragorn as hero-loner" theme gets a bit overdone. Certainly he went off into the wild for many years but (as Belegorn mentioned elsewhere in this thread), he also spends several years living amongst the Rohirrim and the people of Gondor. He also grows up in a pretty benign environment - Imladris well and truly being the historic foster home of the Heirs of Isildur by the time Aragorn is born. And then there are the other Dúnedain of the North, including kinsmen like Halbarad - he must be mixing with them from time to time. And although Tolkien only hints at their settlement situation (the Marquette Papers), it's clear enough that the Dúnedain of the North aren't totally-dispersed tent-dwellers - they have a home of some sort in The Angle, south-west of Imladris. Aragorn, I'd argue, isn't a rootless loner. In fact, you could argue that his lonely years were, like his years of service in Rohan and Gondor, were all part of a long apprenticeship for being supreme leader of the Free Men of Middle-earth.
A more direct comparison between Thorin and one of Isildur's Heirs might be with the first Chieftain of the Dúnedain, Aranarth. Like Thorin, Aranarth was on the scene as a young man when his patrimony was destroyed by a great evil. And like Thorin, Aranarth leads his people into exile. As an analogy, it all starts to break down on the issues of choice and necessity. In theory, Aranarth could have tried to rebuild the kingdom of his ancestors within his own lifetime, but chooses to go into exile.
And still on Thorin, you could make the case that he, unlike Aragorn, is the individual who is responsible for personally pulling his people back from the brink of extinction. He is there when Erebor falls, there when Durin's Folk wander through Dunland & Eriador, there for the War of the Dwarves & Orcs and the catastrophic losses at Azanulbizar, and there when Durin's Folk finally find a home of sorts in the Blue Mountains. Not to belittle anything that Aragorn does (!), but he inherits a relatively healthy support network. Alright, I reckon I've stretched this Devil's Advocacy as far as it can go!
Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk
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