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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Apr 7 2008, 4:29pm
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TTT: "The Departure of Boromir" I
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The first chapter of the second volume of The Lord of the Rings begins with Aragorn running up the hill toward the seat of Amon Hen, searching for Frodo. He stops to sit in the high seat himself and sees an eagle, then hears the horn of Boromir and voices of Orcs. He runs toward the sounds, drawing his sword and crying, "Elendil!"
1. What might stand out for the first-time reader, having waited four months since FotR was published? What might be going over his or her head?
Aragorn finds Boromir all alone, surrounded by dead Orcs, and pierced with many arrows. Boromir in his dying words confesses that he tried to take the Ring, tells that the Orcs have taken "the halflings", and asks Aragorn to go to Minas Tirith and save his people. Aragorn reassures Boromir, then Boromir dies before Aragorn can find out if the Orcs had taken Frodo.
2. Which part of this brief death scene is most significant to you or to the story?
Aragorn is overcome with grief and despair and kneels by Boromir, weeping. When Legolas and Gimli arrive on the scene, they stopped and bowed their heads in grief too, "for it seemed to them plain what had happened."
3. What do they think happened?
Aragorn tells them what has happened and asks what should be done now. Legolas answers that they must somehow pay their respects to Boromir and not leave his body laying in the open. After a brief debate, Aragorn suggests "burial at sea" by putting Boromir in a boat and sending him over the falls.
4. Is this a commonly accepted form of burial? I'm sure someone out there knows some history of watery graves.
Where's Frodo?
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One Ringer
Tol Eressea
Apr 7 2008, 7:18pm
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1.) I think the beginning was very well done. Aragorn searching for Frodo was a great introduction. It reintroduced key characters, the situation, and the setting. It was nicely paced, and and veru suttle in a way. The reader may have been thinking, "Right, this is where we were," or, "That's right!" I wouldn't know. I think we need some input from readers at the time.
2.) What I enjoy most about this scene is that Boromir has been freed by the power of the ring. He's admitted to trying to take it from Frodo, and he knows that what he has done is wrong. He tells Aragorn as much as he can before his death, because he knows that the journey is over for him. After all of the bad times, in the end, Boromir was honorable, and brave. IN many ways, he'd freed himselg from the ring's grasp over him.
3.) Legolas and Gimli obviously realize that Boromir has fallen, and see that it is only out of respect to bow.
4.) I'm not sure if this is commonly accepted, but I see nothing wrong with it. It's no different then putting someone underground, only now you're putting them underwater. There might also be the idea that Boromir's body may float ashore (which it eventually does) and then someone may recognize him and give him a proper burial. You can never truly know.
Great start to The Two Towers! 
Ash nazg durbatulûk, Ash nazg gimbatul,
Ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.
My Upcoming Discussion Leads:
SCREENCAP OF THE DAY: Week of April 14th
THE TWO TOWERS READING DISCUSSION: The Uruk-Hai - April 21st-27th
(This post was edited by One Ringer on Apr 7 2008, 7:19pm)
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Milady
Rivendell
Apr 7 2008, 7:26pm
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1. What might stand out for the first-time reader, having waited four months since FotR was published? What might be going over his or her head?
I didn't wait the four months, having read the books after all of them had been published, but when I first opened TTT and found the first line to be "Aragorn sped on up the hill" I was a little overwhelmed. FotR began nice and slowly, giving me time to adjust to the story, but TTT opened right in the middle of the action.
2. Which part of this brief death scene is most significant to you or to the story?
The briefness of it; I was still surprised with the quick beginning, so I didn't really comprehend the death scene.
3. What do they think happened?
To me it seems like, from the description, they only know Boromir's dead, which is supported by the later line "The last words of Boromir he long kept secret." Legolas and Gimli don't know that Boromir has atoned for any sin, but they know he is dead and respect him as a great warrior.
Has anyone ever wondered what would have happened if Smaug had ate Bilbo, and therefore the ring? It would be interesting to see Sauron send orcs to go diving for the Ring.
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Apr 7 2008, 11:46pm
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1. What might stand out for the first-time reader, having waited four months since FotR was published? What might be going over his or her head?
Perhaps it took the reader a month or two to get FOTR & then a month or two to read the book, so the wait wouldn't be that long at all.........
Aragorn finds Boromir all alone, surrounded by dead Orcs, and pierced with many arrows. Boromir in
2. Which part of this brief death scene is most significant to you or to the story?
The fact that Boromir just says "halflings" & Aragorn is left to figure out which "halfings" were taken by the orcs.
The rest of the death & repentence scene is pretty standard literary & Hollywood fare to be honest.
3. What do they think happened?
That Boromir was killed in battle of course. Remember, Legolas & Gimli say they came when they heard the horn blasts.....
4. Is this a commonly accepted form of burial? I'm sure someone out there knows some history of watery graves.
Actually, I am reading TLOR to my ten year old son & we just finished FOTR & are currently in TTT at 'Treebeard' (boy, one of the chapters that bogs down the story in my opinion, but we all have our favorite & least favorite parts). Anyhow, I recall that in this place, there is a discussion about how Boromir might be buried. A cairn is suggested, but no rocks are available, no tools for burial......
It's only that the best option available is 'burial at sea', so that's why the 3 use this method.
I would guess the only other method available is burning & this seems reserved only for enemies in Middle-earth: it's used by the Rohirrim on the orcs; Many times against evil creatures such as Glaurung & the Fell Beast that The Lord of the Nazgul rides in the Battle of Pellanor Fields.
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Beren IV
Gondor
Apr 8 2008, 5:50am
Post #5 of 24
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The Fellowship ended on a cliffhanger
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How much would be lost four months later? That would depend on whether the reader re-read the last chapter of FotR before starting TTT immediately after picking it up. After all, we ended in the middle of an action scene, or one going on in the background at least!
I think it is plainly obvious what happened here: Aragorn is paying Boromir his last respects, and the Hobbits that were with Boromir are gone. That means they were taken.
The next scene, however, indicates that Legolas and Gimli do not know what is going on - it isn't until Aragorn realizes what the S-rune really signifies that the full gravity of the situation dawns on them!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Apr 8 2008, 8:35am
Post #6 of 24
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1. What might stand out for the first-time reader, having waited four months since FotR was published? What might be going over his or her head?
The chapter starts out with Aragorn's name, and then Frodo's. I think within a few sentences, a reader would remember pretty much what had been happening when the last book stopped.
Tolkien didn't intend for the book to be published as three volumes, of course, and I've never heard whether any adjustments were made to allow for this - I suspect not.
One question that occurs to me is why the publishers decided to break the volumes here, splitting one action sequence into two, when the end of this next chapter is a more natural break in the story. I can only assume that they liked the idea of a cliff-hanger, to be sure the punters would come back for another volume! (I've always had a one-volume edition of LotR - the first was this one, which I still regret losing - so the breaks between volumes never made any impression on me!)
2. Which part of this brief death scene is most significant to you or to the story?
It's interesting that Tolkien chose not to show any of Boromir's last stand against the orcs. We see this part of the story only through Aragorn's eyes. From Aragorn's point of view, this scene is yet another source of self-reproach - first that he allowed this to happen, then that he was too late to find out from Boromir which way Frodo went. And Boromir, as he dies, once again lays on Aragorn a responsibility that he doesn't know how to square with his other responsibility: "Boromir has laid it on me to go to Minas Tirith, and my heart desires it; but where are the Ring and the Bearer? How shall I find them and save the Quest from disaster?"
Aragorn's words to Boromir are far-seeing:
"Farewell, Aragorn! Go to Minas Tirith and save my people! I have failed."
"No!" said Aragorn, taking his hand and kissing his brow. "You have conquered. Few have gained such a victory. Be at peace! Minas Tirith shall not fall!"
Aragorn seems to be giving absolution to Boromir, who has confessed his sin ("I tried to take the Ring from Frodo") and paid his penance.
3. What do [Legolas and Gimli] think happened?
They think that Aragorn is wounded too, because he is still kneeling beside Boromir, so they assume that both Men were attacked by the orcs.
4. Is this a commonly accepted form of burial? I'm sure someone out there knows some history of watery graves.
There is a burial of this kind at the start of Beowulf:
The stretched out their beloved lord in his boat,
laid out by the mast, amidships,
the great ring-giver. Far-fetched treasures
were piled upon him, and precious gear....
And they set a gold standard up
high above his head and let him drift
to wind and tide, bewailing him
and mourning their loss.
And there were Anglo-Saxon ship-burials such as Sutton Hoo, where the ship wasn't set afloat but was buried in the ground.
Celtic legends also associate the death of a king or other leader with crossing the sea (most famously King Arthur, who after being mortally wounded was taken across the Sea to the Isle of Avalon, never to return).
This form of burial for Boromir probably echoes these legendary tales, and also perhaps foreshadows the sailing of the Last Ship at the end of the story.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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sador
Half-elven
Apr 8 2008, 10:29am
Post #7 of 24
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1. What might stand out for the first-time reader, having waited four months since FotR was published? What might be going over his or her head?
Well, the book starts with Aragorn looking for Frodo and Sam, but then descrubes Amon Hen, which might require looking back and checking what exactly Frodo saw there.
2. Which part of this brief death scene is most significant to you or to the story?
Well, it's clearly confession and absolution (in Numenor, the king was considered to be the High Priest), but FarFromHome beat me to being the first to pointing this out. Does the kiss resemble extreme unction?
Aside, I'm surprised at TolkienForever not mentioning this as one place where PJ, Ph. & F. badly reduced the story. How can "No, Boromir. You have fought bravely" (which nobody ever doubted) compare to "No, you have conquered! Few have won such a victory. Be at peace!"?
But to say a good word about the films, they conveyed well the essence of this scene. Aragorn takes over from Boromir, and is specifically asked by him to deliver his people. What could be more significant?
3. What do they think happened?
Legolas fears Aragorn is badly hurt, and Tolkien's words imply he and Gimli were wrong. They are sure both Men stood together against the Orcs (before they started running after Frodo, the two Men did stand together) - and how could they know that while everyone else was fighting, Aragorn was sightseeing uphill?
I must observe, though, that as they survey the battlefield, they (after hunting and slaying 'many Orcs' in the woods) assume those on this field were killed by both Men together. In fact Boromir did it alone - which does say a lot about his prowess as a fighter.
4. Is this a commonly accepted form of burial? I'm sure someone out there knows some history of watery graves.
Had Boromir been buried at Parth Galen, he would join Anarion and Isildur as a doorkeeper of the realm. But instead, he flows down the River - a messenger from the North, bearing the cloven horn of the house of the Stewards (symbolising the end of it's tenure), but more beautiful than ever in life (as Faramir says), with tokens of new friendship between the races (Galadriel's belt), and being untouched by any Evil. And it is not for nothing that Faramir is the one who sees him, and takes this to his heart.
But I'm afraid I didn't express myself properly. But the I have confidence in the average reader here; you'll understand what I've meant.
"I am sorry. I have paid" - Boromir
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Apr 8 2008, 2:11pm
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one place where PJ, Ph. & F. badly reduced the story. How can "No, Boromir. You have fought bravely" (which nobody ever doubted) compare to "No, you have conquered! Few have won such a victory. Be at peace!"?
You point out a major difference here - Aragorn in the movie is not a "High Priest" at this point in the story (maybe at his coronation, but certainly not before), and absolution is not in his power. So he consoles Boromir in human terms, including one reassurance that would be particularly meaningful to Boromir: "You have kept your honour."
One thing I do prefer in the movie version is the way the practical details about the hobbits are handled, early in the dialogue and as a part of Boromir's confession. In the book, Aragorn changing the subject abruptly after his "High Priest" moment always rings oddly to me:
"No!" said Aragorn, taking his hand and kissing his brow. "You have conquered. Few have gained such a victory. Be at peace! Minas Tirith shall not fall!"
Boromir smiled.
"Which way did they go? Was Frodo there?" said Aragorn.
This dialogue is the BBC radio dramatization, and I find the change of tone almost comically jarring!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Dreamdeer
Valinor
Apr 8 2008, 4:34pm
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Others have answered the questions beautifully. (I would only add that "You have conquered" seems to refer to Boromir conquering himself--a more important victory than besting the orcs.) So I will move on to points which additionally impress me about this segment.
1) Aragorn's ADD moment, suddenly dropping all responsibilities right in the middle of a crisis and giving in to the temptation to sit on Amon Hen--and then not experiencing any magical properties from it at all--illustrates precisely what's been wrong with him. He keeps trying to peer too far ahead, and stumbling over what's near. He winds up tangled in "what ifs" and becomes overwhelmed with sorting out all manner of possible decisions, resulting in doubts and insecurity that he passes on to those trusting him to make the decisions.
2) Aragorn finally expresses, repeatedly, the full realization of just how bad his leadership has been up to this point. This is a huge step in the right direction. As Dr. Phil is fond of saying, "You can't fix what you don't admit to." Like the pettiness of hobbits, this also draws in the unheroic reader, with the lesson that those who face their failures can learn from the experience and later enjoy victories.
2) Legolas provides precisely what Aragorn needs to recover from his slump. Right when Aragorn confesses that everything he has done has gone amiss, and asks the others what to do next, Legolas grounds him into the present moment, telling him first things first, deal with Boromir's body. From that point on, Aragorn bases all of his decisions on whatever is the most essential thing to do right now this minute. He gets back on track, and stays there for the rest of the story. When he takes leadership one step at a time, it doesn't overwhelm him anymore.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Apr 8 2008, 6:53pm
Post #10 of 24
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1. What might stand out for the first-time reader, having waited four months since FotR was published?
"Er, wasn't this story about a hobbit named Frodo?"
What might be going over his or her head?
The story is no longer just about Frodo. We are entering The World of Men.
2. Which part of this brief death scene is most significant to you or to the story?
That the Uruks have taken the halflings. (But which halflings? Where’s Frodo?)
Aragorn is overcome with grief and despair and kneels by Boromir, weeping.
Er, what about Frodo?
When Legolas and Gimli arrive on the scene, they stopped and bowed their heads in grief too, "for it seemed to them plain what had happened."
Hey! Remember Frodo? Sure it's been a few months, but jeez!!
3. What do they think happened?
Hmmmm. In shame and despair Boromir shot himself with a bow umpteen dozen times front, back, and sides? (Hey! It's not as farfetched as it sounds. I could tell you stories about certain county coroners.)
Aragorn tells them what has happened and asks what should be done now.
Find Frodo?
Legolas answers that they must somehow pay their respects to Boromir and not leave his body laying in the open.
What about Frodo?
After a brief debate, Aragorn suggests "burial at sea" by putting Boromir in a boat and sending him over the falls.
At least they're heading in the general direction of Frodo.
4. Is this a commonly accepted form of burial?
Well, they know the Elven boat won't sink. (Even pushed over the falls?) And maybe they'll notice one of the boats is gone and it'll remind them about Frodo.
I'm sure someone out there knows some history of watery graves.
A watery grave is a quick and easy way of disposing of bodies. (See the Wiki entry for “Cement Overshoes”. They really don’t have much time since they should be looking for Frodo. At least as soon as they remember that’s who they were supposed to be looking for in the first place!!
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 8 2008, 6:54pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 8 2008, 9:07pm
Post #11 of 24
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"Go to Minas Tirith and save my people!"
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Pukel-man once had a cute line about how Boromir's remarks here show his character: even as he dies, he's giving orders.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Apr. 7-13 for "The Departure of Boromir".
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Apr 9 2008, 3:06am
Post #12 of 24
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I like your answer on #2 as well.
Where's Frodo?
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Apr 9 2008, 3:12am
Post #13 of 24
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Your #4 answer was well said indeed, sador. I like your remarks on Galadriel's belt symbolizing renewed friendship between Elves and Men, and I hadn't thought of that. Also, I agree with you in #3 that Legolas and Gimli seemed to think that Aragorn was hurt. It didn't occur to me that they would also think that the dead Orcs were the work of both men when in fact it was only Boromir. It doesn't make a difference to the scene, but only in the way I think about the scene, and I thank you for that.
Where's Frodo?
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Apr 9 2008, 3:26am
Post #14 of 24
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Dreamdeer, nice articulation of Aragorn's floundering, and that's a fresh perspective on Legolas' role for me.
Where's Frodo?
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Apr 9 2008, 3:32am
Post #15 of 24
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I'm with you -- things happen fast here compared with other chapters, and I never had an emotional connection with the death scene until the movie.
Where's Frodo?
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 9 2008, 10:17pm
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Aren't "Ph. & F." on the record
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I'm surprised at Tolkien Forever not mentioning this as one place where PJ, Ph. & F. badly reduced the story. How can "No, Boromir. You have fought bravely" (which nobody ever doubted) compare to "No, you have conquered! Few have won such a victory. Be at peace!"? ...as saying (on the commentaries, to which I have not listened) that this is one scene where they improve on the book?
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Apr. 7-13 for "The Departure of Boromir".
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sador
Half-elven
Apr 10 2008, 9:14am
Post #17 of 24
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I guess they think so. But I've heard the commentaries only once, and while doing something else simultanously - so I might have missed it.
Anyway, I was surprised at TolkienForever since (to judge by these forums) he seems to generally have a lower opinion of PJ, Ph. & F. than myself.
"I am sorry. I have paid" - Boromir
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Apr 10 2008, 10:11am
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Here's the commentary transcript
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courtesy of TORn member Aragorn_Elessar's site:
Peter (cont.): ...[Boromir: “I tried to take the Ring from him”] This moment between Boromir and Aragorn is iconic from the book, you know, you can read the book and imagine our Boromir leaning against the base of the tree with the arrows in him, and Aragorn leaning over him and –.
Philippa: I think this moment is better than the moment in the book. There, I said it! [laughs] I do.
Peter: Yeah, well we definitely enhanced [Philippa: I think we did] the dialogue: we made it –.
Philippa: Not just the dialogue, but I actually think the emotional content [Peter: Yeah] of this moment, and the connection between these two characters. And I do think it was a failure of Professor Tolkien’s. I wanted more when I read that moment in the book.
Peter: Yeah. (beat) [Aragorn: “I will not let the White City fall”] As it is in the movie, this scene really becomes as much about Aragorn as it is about Boromir’s death, and it is… It’s really a moment for Aragorn to declare to us, the audience, his intention now to embrace his birthright as a noble King of Men, and to pursue that, which is obviously what… really what Aragorn’s story is over our next two movies.
Philippa: And it’s the simple identification with the world of Men, “Our People,” he says, and you can see… and Sean plays it so beautifully.
Reading this, and thinking of the comments earlier in the thread about Aragorn as a High Priest here, I think you can see that constant tension in the movie away from the mystical and towards the "realistic" and human-focused. That was a deliberate choice of theirs from the start, but I think it's missing the point really to say one approach is "better" and one is "worse". They are just different, and it's really these sorts of differences that make the movies so interesting for me.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Apr 10 2008, 12:23pm
Post #19 of 24
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Philippa: I think this moment is better than the moment in the book. There, I said it! [laughs] I do.
FarFromHome: That was a deliberate choice of theirs from the start, but I think it's missing the point really to say one approach is "better" and one is "worse".
So PB missed the point of what she had written?
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Join us Apr. 7-13 for "The Departure of Boromir".
(This post was edited by N.E. Brigand on Apr 10 2008, 12:24pm)
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FarFromHome
Valinor
Apr 10 2008, 1:21pm
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So PB missed the point of what she had written?
I don't think she missed the point of what she had written - she was deliberately expanding on what is in the book a very spare scene. But I think she was missing the point in saying that what she had written was "better" than the book. This what I actually said in my post:
it's missing the point really to say one approach is "better" and one is "worse"...
The book scene works fine in the book, because it focuses on Boromir as an idea rather than a person - Boromir is the embodiment of "prowess", insufficiently tempered by humility and wisdom. And his death illustrates the powerful idea of redemption through sacrifice. What we don't get, in the book, is much sense of Boromir as a person, or what his loss might mean personally to Aragorn. Even the elegy is very formal, and again focuses on the idea of Boromir - as a lost hero, and a lost son of Gondor, rather than on Aragorn and Legolas' personal feelings about the individual they are honouring. That's Tolkien's choice, and I think it perfectly suits the way the character of Boromir is presented in the book. But for movie-Boromir, who is a fully-rounded, complex and very attractive character, the book's death scene really would leave you feeling short-changed, I think.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 9:06am
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…FF is referring to the original appearance of FOTR and TT.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 9:07am
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It would be a cliffhanger either way.
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One question that occurs to me is why the publishers decided to break the volumes here, splitting one action sequence into two, when the end of this next chapter is a more natural break in the story.
The division of LOTR into six books was Tolkien’s plan, not the publisher’s, who merely bundled his books into three groups of two, so far as I know. If Book II had ended with this chapter, readers would be equally in the dark about Frodo and Sam, and rather more anxious for the next book.
It’s interesting that Tolkien chose not to show any of Boromir’s last stand against the orcs. We see this part of the story only through Aragorn's eyes.
We get a little bit in flashback form from Pippin later.
Aragorn seems to be giving absolution to Boromir, who has confessed his sin … and paid his penance.
Michael Drout emphasized this scene in his J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia entry on “Penance”.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 9:07am
Post #23 of 24
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Good point about the king as priest. And Boromir’s prowess. //
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 16-22 for a free discussion on the entire book.
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 22 2009, 9:07am
Post #24 of 24
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Nice thought about Amon Hen. //
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Mar. 16-22 for a free discussion on the entire book.
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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