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Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Rivendell
Aug 8 2015, 1:57am
Post #26 of 66
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But there are those of us who do care about Fili as a character.
And many people did have a reaction to his death, most likely due to the brutality of it, but it was still a reaction.
Justice for Fili
(This post was edited by Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf on Aug 8 2015, 2:02am)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 8 2015, 2:00am
Post #27 of 66
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If they wanted to keep the dwarves exactly how they were in the book, they should have done that from the beginning. Instead, they gave us a decent amount of character moments for them in the first two movies and then suddenly decided they didn't matter at all in the final movie. The issue isn't whether or not they were sticking to the book. The issue is whether or not they were staying consistent with their own storytelling within the movies, and I don't think they did.
It's like if Arwen suddenly disappeared in RotK until the very end. You can't say "well that's how it was in the book" because by that point in the movies, her character was already featured more than she was in the books. The filmmakers had created certain expectations that were completely separate from the books.
They had a chance to develop Fili into more of a standout character, but instead they essentially made him "the other one that dies." Meanwhile, a completely made up character gets several (repetitive) scenes focused on him, and Legolas gets his own action scenes even though his role didn't really end up having enough substance to justify his inclusion.
It's just bad writing/narrative IMO - telling a story, you set your pieces in place, give the reader or audience time to know the characters, and follow their arc. Never, never, would I have thought along this journey I'd be saying to myself, "one of the reasons I enjoy AUJ and DOS so much is because I can enjoy these hairy little guys and Bilbo without it being "contaminated" - and I never thought just to give these guys and/or Beorn their due, I'd have to be cobbling fan-fic in my head, or that re BOFA the forward button would be getting a workout
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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Elanor of Rohan
Lorien
Aug 8 2015, 9:50am
Post #28 of 66
(800 views)
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In franchises with lots of characters, story-lines and of course several different movies, directors and scriptwriters can't always predict who will stand out from the crowd and become a firm favourite (apart from the obvious protagonists).
Comic reliefs are tricky and run the risk of back-fire. I don't want to compare Alfrid to the infamous Jar Jar Binks (that would be too much), but I think that Pj and Co would be surprised to hear our generally negative comments about him: they loved Ryan Gage (who is a good stage actor btw), and tried to give him much space in order to illustrate life in Laketown.
But the contrary also happens: in the SW universe everybody loves Boba Fett- I bet George Lucas was surprised when he realized it.
With two dashing Durins (and a change of actor) Pj did not give much thought to the third Prince. Fran and Philippa were already busy drooling over Aidan, and WB wanted to exploit this potential with a newly made "love story", or kind of, anyway.
On Tumblr, but also here, I reckon, the number of people disappointed by Fili's treatment has considerably grown: this has come (or would come, because I really don't know if anyone has ever enlightened PJ about this) as some surprise to PJ, and maybe to Philippa
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Aug 8 2015, 10:18am
Post #29 of 66
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It's just bad writing/narrative
It is more bad editing then writing, because the scenes exists it is just not shown
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Goblin Mutant
The Shire
Aug 8 2015, 11:06am
Post #30 of 66
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Thorin is supposed to be inconsistent
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Thorin is supposed to be inconsistent. That is part of the journey his character makes, he forgets about his companions in lust for gold and succumbs to dragon sickness.
I do not understand how Thorin being inconsistent makes the films inconsistent.
Here's to Dwarves that go swimming with little hairy women.
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Macfeast
Rohan
Aug 8 2015, 11:20am
Post #31 of 66
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He had just overcome his dragon sickness at that point.
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He had his whole "will you follow me, one last time"-moment just a minute or so prior, suggesting that he had left the gold lust behind and gone back to being the heroic leader that we know from the first two films; His character arc, his journey, had already progressed past the point where he was supposed to have forgotten about his companions, it had entered the redemption-stage. If he falls back to acting like he's under the dragon sickness this quickly, then the poignancy of Thorin coming to his senses and apologizing to his men is wholly undone, it is meaningless.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Aug 8 2015, 11:30am)
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Goblin Mutant
The Shire
Aug 8 2015, 11:33am
Post #32 of 66
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But what are the stages of dragon sickness? Maybe it is like Alzheimers where you have moments of clarity? Or maybe you think that the films muddle it to much and should spell it out that Thorin has a moment of clear head in that case?
Here's to Dwarves that go swimming with little hairy women.
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Macfeast
Rohan
Aug 8 2015, 11:47am
Post #33 of 66
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... the film makes a very big deal about Thorin overcoming the dragon sickness; When Thorin enters the battle, I am left under the impression that he has left it behind him. I suppose it is possible that the dragon sickness could momentarily relapse, but I don't think that would make for very satisfying storytelling, when Thorin is supposed to be in the redemption-stage of his journey; To contrast, there is a reason why Boromir, when he lies dying at the end of FOTR, doesn't momentarily relapse and go "I wants the precious".
In any case, Thorin's decision to leave most of the company behind when he goes for Ravenhill is, in my eyes, thematically inconsistent; It could be justified in many ways in-character and in-universe, but that is not where my point of contention lies.
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Aug 8 2015, 11:49am
Post #34 of 66
(696 views)
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do you mean that Thorin had the dragon sickness again when he is out on The battlefield?
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Aug 8 2015, 11:56am
Post #36 of 66
(682 views)
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I diden't saw your other post when I wrote mine.
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Macfeast
Rohan
Aug 8 2015, 11:57am
Post #37 of 66
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No need to apologize, happens to everyone :) //
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(This post was edited by Macfeast on Aug 8 2015, 11:58am)
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Goblin Mutant
The Shire
Aug 8 2015, 12:13pm
Post #38 of 66
(668 views)
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My understanding it that the dragon sickness is something that Thorin is able to hold back and surpress. I don't think that there is any evidence that he somehow makes it disappear.
On the other hand, If they wanted to have him lapse into sickness and back into a clear head they could have illustrated it with a scene where Thorin stops and have a head ache and then go against his previos behavior.
But I'm thankful that they didn't use the heavy handed illustrations as in when Théoden got released from Sarumans spell. It is my pet hate in all the films. I'm ok with the mist in his eyes being removed, but anything beyond that is just silly. A magical haircut? But I'm disgressing from the subject.
Here's to Dwarves that go swimming with little hairy women.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 8 2015, 2:01pm
Post #39 of 66
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Did Thorin leave two thirds of the dwarves behind? I don't think he did, at any point in the story.
He left Kili behind at Laketown because Kili was ill. The three who also stayed stayed by their own choice or by accident - and with Fili at least that was very much against Thorin's will.
Once Thorin had broken free of the dragon's hoard he led all twelve into the battle - "Will you follow me..." was addressed to them all.
When he saw Azog's death as the only chance of victory he led what was effectively a raiding party with his three best fighters while the other nine - presumably under Balin's command - continued fighting on the battlefield. No one was left behind: every dwarf was in the battle and every dwarf had a part to play. And surely the intention was that if Thorin had succeeded he would have returned to them on the main battlefield. He was diverting to deal with a particular problem - think of it in modern terms as a side-attack on an enemy machine-gun post to make progress in the main battle possible.
I don't see any inconsistency there at all. When Thorin said "I would take each and every one of these dwarves..." he was talking about the quest to Erebor: he had no way of knowing that it would end in a pitched battled against goblins. He took them all just as he said; they stuck together through all the dangers of the journey. And when it did come to the unforseen battle he deployed them all on the battlefield as any commander would - and as he did before, in the fight inside the Mountain. I think the story - the adaptation - is fine as it stands.
If the film slipped up it was in not showing enough of what the other nine dwarves were doing in the battle. I would have liked to see more of them but I don't have any problem believing that the battle carried on and they played their part in it.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 8 2015, 2:22pm
Post #40 of 66
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Comic reliefs are tricky and run the risk of back-fire. I don't want to compare Alfrid to the infamous Jar Jar Binks (that would be too much) I've read critical comments quote "the movie's [BOFA] "Jar Jar Binks..." tho for me, I loved Ryan Gage's Alfrid , the little nuances he makes with his face, etc. IMO it's no different that EL's Tauriel, who "was surprised she didn't do more fighting" or OB's Legolas.
IMO take Elijah Wood's cameo - it was just right, enough to delight the fans (well, myself anyway) and segue nicely into the NEW story.
I think if the arc had stayed with Bilbo, dwarves, Bard, Smaug, Beorn, Thranduil how different I would have felt, e.g. less of Alfrid, Tauriel, Legolas would have been so much MORE, I may have even been wistful there wasn't more, without being upset about it. 
I see Fili as different, perhaps, besides being someone the audience took to - because IMO, flat out, by default, both book and film, that's the PART - Fili and Kili, sons of Durin, Fili - heir to the Throne, the sister sons who will fall defending Thorin shield and body, the bonded brothers.
Fili as a role is IMPORTANT - if RA is correct when he talked about gathering clues as to a writer's meaning when a writer changes a name - well, why did Tolkien use his "rhyming names" so that Fili and Kili are so similar? Did he not want this "group/brothers" together, as a pair? Fili & Kili, like the lines of a song or a poem.
Never mind the fact from AUJ on the way Fili and Kili are presented (together) and in DOS, or even the publicity and even the companion books.
On Tumblr, but also here, I reckon, the number of people disappointed by Fili's treatment has considerably grown: this has come (or would come, because I really don't know if anyone has ever enlightened PJ about this) as some surprise to PJ, and maybe to Philippa
Well, that's the thing I guess, about not being able to see the forest because of the trees - because I IMAGINE - without knowing if this is the case - that in this "organic filmmaking process" and these "forums" that PJ and Philippa had - where the actors are on set and they actually see what they are working with - that PJ and Phillipa were delighted w. Ryan Gage and started giving him more to do, wrongly or rightly seeing him as an opportunity for comic relief for a family film, a way to lighten things up.
Then there is their evident fondness for the idea of a female elf and Legolas.
PJ once said something to the effect of "you make something and put it out and hope people like it" - well, tho, IMO somewhere PJ & Philippa got bogged down a bit with what THEY like. It just doesn't seem as tho there was any neutral party on set, looking at raw footage, who may have known the material or just plain narrative construction, who might have said "er, you have all these dwarves and they don't seem to be saying much, and Fili and Kili had this big brother bond and now they don't - you know, audiences get frustrated when they get to know a character and there is no payoff".
"Unless, of course, they may have started resenting the character so much for whatever reason they can't wait for the character to be gotten rid of."
Which seems to be happening re Alfrid, sadly. PJ & co. have alluded to Alfrid's demise - IMO I should feel bad about that. A little regretful - like I am sorry the Master is not around any more. Instead of resenting the screen time being taken up over it, potentially.
Fran and Philippa were already busy drooling over Aidan, and WB wanted to exploit this potential with a newly made "love story", or kind of, anyway.
Rightfully so - Aidan Turner does a fine job. BUT. Again, evidently there was no-one around that PJ & co. might have listened to, that Tauriel as a character had developed an alarming number of "Mary Sue" attributes, that the degree of Alfridness had increased to the point of being wearisome and unfunny, that the concept of bonded brothers (and yes, attractive ones) had its own appeal and audience and people were interested in that, that this love story was tepid and there are some bad script lines, and folks - paying customers - KNOW how the story is supposed to go. They also know that the oldest prince, by default, would kind of be important, yah know?
So I wouldn't be surprised that the 'net community - like TORn - keeps coming back to the "missing Fili", the dwarves, Beorn. It's like we are still waiting for the actual film in parts. And it really bothers be that I have never heard of an interview where PJ & co. even mention the dwarves outside of the funeral - big deal, IMO, I want to see Thorin TALK to his HEIR, or something. At this point just a few little lines between Fili and Kili - anything. Fili and Kili commenting on Erebor would have been nice - and logical - considering this is "the halls of their fathers" and it's the first time they were ever there.
Well, at least the banner got it right.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 8 2015, 2:59pm
Post #41 of 66
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Like any battle, after the company left Erebor together, I assume they got swept apart at least somewhat in distance - possibly the family groups sort of staying close as tiny units because that's how they naturally behave....
The Durins together w. Dwalin probably sticking close w. Balin, Dori fighting hard but keeping an eye on Ori with Nori, Bifur, Bombur, Bofur....
We don't see it, but if Thorin is looking around for a fast raiding party, he's going to grab his scouts and "bodyguard" of sorts Dwalin, and go for it - knowing Balin and Dain are still there to carry on.
Agree with:
Did Thorin leave two thirds of the dwarves behind? I don't think he did, at any point in the story.
And in any case, IMO one thing that BOFA does right IMO is the bonds between the company are never broken - Fili & co. immediately head for Erebor and their distress when they arrive is evident -even w. the little screen time given.
Everyone seems into fortifying the gate at Erebor, everyone is defiantly lined up when the elven army arrives, and everyone waits until Thorin comes back to himself.
The real fracturing IMO we see w. Dwalin and Thorin, and even then Dwalin stays. And even in his madness Thorin could be hurt, which he wouldn't have been if even in his mind he had "left the company behind" - e.g., that's why he threatens to kill Dwalin.
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Macfeast
Rohan
Aug 8 2015, 3:05pm
Post #42 of 66
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I think my problem lies very much in what we do not see.
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I'm not opposed to the concept of Thorin leaving two thirds of the company on the main battlefield so that he might pursue Azog, as long as it is justified within the story. If we had seen Thorin actively deploy the remaining dwarves and demand that they stay behind so that he and his best fighters could mount a side-attack, and if it had been shown that the remaining dwarves had a part to play in the battle, then I think it would have worked better. As it is, Thorin leads his twelve followers into battle, and then leaves nine of them behind all very suddenly, and they are paid no heed until the battle is over. "Presumably under Balin's command" is not satisfactory to me, and Gandalf's "he's taking his best fighters" should have been spoken by Thorin.
When it comes to Thorin's words at Bag End, I reference them for the sake of narrative and thematic coherence. Consider Gandalf's "true courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one". Gandalf doesn't know that Bilbo is going to end up in a situation where he is given the choice between taking and sparing a life; Gandalf says it to establish a narrative theme, which later gets its payoff when Bilbo spares Gollum's life. It would have been very strange had Gandalf spoken these words, and the film had treated the moment as the significant, poignant moment that it is... and then the film never gives Bilbo the opportunity to spare someone's life. Spoken words in a film often carries more meaning than the immediate in-character and in-universe meaning.
When Thorin says that "I would take each and every one of these dwarves", it is, as you suggest, probably meant to refer to the quest of Erebor. However, I felt that these very words also carried a sliver of thematic importance, which the films then reinforced; For most of the story, it was Thorin and Company, and I feel that what we saw from the Company as they did battle against the trolls, the goblins, the spiders, against Smaug, and so forth, reinforced and gave poignancy to Thorin's words. Thorin's words were given a thematic meaning.. and it feels to me like that theme - which I very much enjoyed, it was one of the highlights of the films for me - was abandoned a bit too suddenly when Thorin went to Ravenhill; We lost Thorin and Company in the climactic battle, and instead got Thorin and His Best Fighters. It might have made sense from a speculative in-universe perspective, but not from a thematic perspective.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Aug 8 2015, 3:19pm)
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brotherbeck
Rivendell
Aug 8 2015, 4:23pm
Post #43 of 66
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Speaking only for myself, the disappointment I am now feeling with regards to the Extended Edition of BOTFA only being 164 minutes long really boils down to the fact that it now seems like the EE is really just going to be what the theatrical cut should have always been all along. It's going to still be a tightly-paced action-oriented climax to the trilogy, only now *hopefully* some of the bizarrely edited and extremely choppy scenes will make a little more sense and flow better.
This is disappointing because the EEs have, up until now, been treats for the fans. The fullest versions of these films that let the stories and characters really breathe without having to worry about things like runtime restrictions.
This makes it seem alike PJ really is in love with the idea of the third Hobbit film being paced like a thriller, and is going to stick with that even for the EE. This is an idea that makes absolutely no sense to me. I had always hoped in the back of my mind that it was a reaction to the studio's demand for a limited run-time, as if PJ was just making the best of the situation he was being forced into by the studio. With no restrictions on length I was hoping he would go back and more properly align BOTFA with the other two films in the trilogy.
At the end of the day I am someone who thinks BOTFA is a pretty bad movie. I had hopes after watching AUJ, but as the trilogy went along all of the things I disliked about that film really got pushed to the forefront and the things I did like were pushed way off to the background or dropped altogether.
Now obviously these films still have some magic to them or I wouldn't be hanging around on a messageboard talking about them. The actors are absolutely incredible pretty much across the board. The work done by the production and costume designers bringing Middle Earth to life is absolutely astounding.
When I try to watch DoS and BOTFA now the feeling I honestly get is one of PJ actively getting in the way of the story that I love. It's like he creates these amazingly rich and detailed worlds filled with absolutely glorious characters and wonders beyond the imagination... ...and then insists on showing you only the absolute worst, most vile and stupid aspects of it. I know everyone is sick of hearing about Alfrid, but honestly he is the perfect example: the problem with Alfrid isn't that he's a poorly-written one-note grossly out of place character - even though he is all of those things - the problem is that he is featured so heavily in this movie while literally ANY AND EVERY OTHER THING happening all around him in the world of the film is so much more dramatic and compelling.
I don't mind things like Alfrid if there is enough of the good stuff to balance him out. With BOTFA the balance felt so far off that 19 minutes and 56 seconds just doesn't seem like enough time to right the ship. I hope I am wrong.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 8 2015, 4:42pm
Post #44 of 66
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When Thorin says that "I would take each and every one of these dwarves", it is, as you suggest, probably meant to refer to the quest of Erebor. However, I felt that these very words also carried a sliver of thematic importance, which the films then reinforced; For most of the story, it was Thorin and Company, and I feel that what we saw from the Company as they did battle against the trolls, the goblins, the spiders, against Smaug, and so forth, reinforced and gave poignancy to Thorin's words. Thorin's words were given a thematic meaning.. and it feels to me like that theme - which I very much enjoyed, it was one of the highlights of the films for me - was abandoned a bit too suddenly when Thorin went to Ravenhill; We lost Thorin and Company in the climactic battle, and instead got Thorin and His Best Fighters. It might have made sense from a speculative in-universe perspective, but not from a thematic perspective.
Thanks for this, because I hadn't thought about before how poignant Thorin;s words ARE in Bag End - e.g., I hadn't thought about the evolution of the members of Thorin's company -
E.g., I took too much for granted, in that "dwarves are supposed to be fighters" but really - "there are a few warriors amongst us...."
I mean, what is Dori - re the films...a fussy dwarf, maybe he ran an inn or something. Maybe Bofur was tending bar, Bifur making toys, Bombur a sort of odd-job man, and Ori most of all. Ori, like Bilbo, who had probably never seen the kind of terrible things they had seen on the journey.
So Thorin takes these dwarves as his own company with little more than their loyalty - and yet, while the movies don't make an issue of it, for Thorin - look how much that loyalty pays off, and look what fighter these "ordinary" dwarves turn into.
Thorin's words were given a thematic meaning.. and it feels to me like that theme - which I very much enjoyed, it was one of the highlights of the films for me - was abandoned a bit too suddenly when Thorin went to Ravenhill; We lost Thorin and Company in the climactic battle, and instead got Thorin and His Best Fighters.
Maybe PJ will edit this a bit - the "Baker's Dirty Dozen". *sigh*. I would have like to have seen Nori and his knives. Each and every dwarf deserved their hero moment.
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AshNazg
Gondor
Aug 8 2015, 4:49pm
Post #45 of 66
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More reason to see less of it IMO //
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Cirashala
Valinor
Aug 8 2015, 5:14pm
Post #46 of 66
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though not directly. When Dain says, "I hope you have a plan." Thorin confirms that he does, then they hop on the rams and take off foward Ravenhill.
Therefore, though we do not see it specifically stated onscreen, the inference is made that Thorin actually discussed his plan with the others PRIOR to their running out of Erebor, and once on the battlefield everyone dispersed according to his plan after the initial charge.
That is actually pretty realistic for battle scenarios. You discuss your plan when you're in a safe spot to do so (meaning when you aren't surrounded by enemies wanting to kill you  ) and then execute the plan once you're on the battlefield.
The part that I'm mixed about in that whole scene is Thorin and Dain managing to hug and have a quick chat in the middle of the freaking battle. But they presumably haven't seen each other in a LONG time, they're close kin, and it was basically two leaders of two separate factions meeting on the field for the first time. So in a way, it makes sense, because while Thorin doesn't get the opportunity to outline his entire plan to Dain (and why would he in front of the enemy? It would have ruined the plan had an orc overheard and taken off for Azog to tell him- of course, the audience knows that it was Azog's plan regardless, but Thorin doesn't know that) but that's also because they're in the middle of a freaking battle.
In my humble opinion, Thorin simply stating that he had a plan to Dain is enough explanation for the company's disbursement. It heavily implies that a plan was discussed, and everyone was simply acting out their role in that plan once the initial charge/rally had taken place.
However, I am in FULL agreement with you in that I would have liked to see the battlefield with the other dwarves getting their chance in the spotlight and the resolution of that side of the fray close up as well, rather than the entire thing being forgotten in favor of briefly Dale and then Ravenhill, which turned the situation into more of a skirmish than an epic battle cinematically speaking. The battle atop Ravenhill (excluding the stupid Legolas and Tauriel scenarios) was incredibly important and climactic, but the larger battle should not have been completely omitted for the sake of that. Rather than cutting to Legolas and his bat riding, troll gaming, rock skipping antics, they should have split that sequence between Ravenhill and images of the battle below- then it would have felt connected rather than two separate frays. Ravenhill would have felt more like one crucial part of a BATTLE, rather than a separate conflict altogether.
(This post was edited by Cirashala on Aug 8 2015, 5:15pm)
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Aug 8 2015, 5:15pm
Post #47 of 66
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So I wouldn't be surprised that the 'net community - like TORn - keeps coming back to the "missing Fili", the dwarves, Beorn. It's like we are still waiting for the actual film in parts. And it really bothers be that I have never heard of an interview where PJ & co. even mention the dwarves outside of the funeral - big deal, IMO, I want to see Thorin TALK to his HEIR, or something. At this point just a few little lines between Fili and Kili - anything. Fili and Kili commenting on Erebor would have been nice - and logical - considering this is "the halls of their fathers" and it's the first time they were ever there.
I keep hoping in re to the Dwarves that PJ and co. will "get it right" with the EE. Especially with Fili who - being the next King under the Mountan ONLY after Thorin - should have a bit more prominence than "background Fili". That they will put these characters back at the forefront of their OWN story. After all Bilbo went on an adventure with thirteen DWARVES...not Elves, Men, or any other race/creature of Middle Earth...but DWARVES.
However, even if our cries for more of these hairy little guys were miraculously heard with only 20 minutes of additional footage - some of which is already earmarked for a chariot chase and Orc killings - and several subplots - some IMHO that should never have existed - in need of conclusions, I fear the Dwarves will take a backseat yet again.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 8 2015, 5:52pm
Post #49 of 66
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*Sigh* - completely agree with this
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This makes it seem alike PJ really is in love with the idea of the third Hobbit film being paced like a thriller, and is going to stick with that even for the EE. This is an idea that makes absolutely no sense to me. I had always hoped in the back of my mind that it was a reaction to the studio's demand for a limited run-time, as if PJ was just making the best of the situation he was being forced into by the studio. With no restrictions on length I was hoping he would go back and more properly align BOTFA with the other two films in the trilogy.
Especially:
the disappointment I am now feeling with regards to the Extended Edition of BOTFA only being 164 minutes long really boils down to the fact that it now seems like the EE is really just going to be what the theatrical cut should have always been all along.
Yep. *meh*. Tho I never personally believed BOFA's length was so much to do with the studio as with PJ's desire not to repeat himself with a kind of like "LOTR tone" e.g. "competing with himself";
and at times, as a director, seems to inexplicably feel that once characters are in place, there is no point on dwelling on certain aspects. IMO sometimes this is effective (not spending a lot of time on the trolls turning to stone) and other times a lost opportunity for what would have been a cherished moment ("the dwarves are there, you just want to get them in the cells" e.g. the Thranduil/dwarf scene and Faramir/Eowyn.
And PJ can be baffling about what he DOES linger on or pay attention to - sometimes exquisite moments, at other times for me it does get slow.
In any case tho, for me, the EE was an opportunity to richly fill out BOFA, to have heard the comments from critics and fans that as far as too-tight editing the pendulum had swung too far in the other direction, that folks often like the lavish treatment of LOTR and why not repeat yourself in a sense, if it is beautiful? Certainly a stellar cast was in place to make those moments that may or may not have been filmed very special, we have already seen some wondrous moments in AUJ and DOS. I still can't get over that there's not one real conversation between Thorin and BOTH his nephews, among other things.
Another poster commented "even more reason to see less of it then" - well, yeah, in way. Because a weeknight is a bit of an off night for me personally to go to the movies - especially early in the week - and while at 30 minutes more it was a must-go, that 10 minutes less to see what should have been the TE doesn't seem that special - if you've already seen BOFA 6 times in theaters and own it, too.
It's not that I won't go, but it's not a "must-go" at this point, because even if unique and beautiful things are put back into the film, with 20 minutes more how are they not going to be at the Road-runner pace? And I am going to guess that at least 1/3 of that is stuff I personally could well wait to see, or don't care about. So for me we are talking about 15 or so minutes.
Heck, I could have seen many, many, minutes spend on the funeral alone, a slow procession with the theme playing, something truly MOVING, flickering light playing over Thorin's face, at peace at last, the stone laid on his breast - and based on other's estimates, sounds more like an epic, even spiritual moment will be dealt with in terms of quick reaction shots - what, 3 minutes devoted to the single most-complained about missing scene? Well, maybe that's too harsh, IMO the entry to Erebor is one of the most beautifully done scenes for me in any film, and Philippa and the actors have made mention of it. So I am going to assume that is taken good care of.
I don't mind things like Alfrid if there is enough of the good stuff to balance him out.
*Sigh*. I guess after this re the films, the wait begins, which may be a long time, for a possible complete re-edit and/or the news that the licenses have been made available for a re-boot. But I am missing this cast already.
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Macfeast
Rohan
Aug 8 2015, 6:07pm
Post #50 of 66
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The poignancy of Thorin's words grew something immensely in retrospect.
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Thorin isn't just referring to a number of random dwarves that are there simply to fill out his roster; They are all important, if not as individuals, then at least as a group. In retrospect, I see now just how much all that teamwork between the dwarves we saw in AUJ and DOS really reinforced the concept of Thorin and Company.
Dwalin acting as a springboard for Thorin to leap against one of the trolls? Dwalin directing his fellow dwarves to swipe goblins aside with a pole? Bombur being saved from a spider by his fellow dwarves ripping its legs off? The dwarves throwing weapons back and forth during the barrel-ride down the river? The company collaborating to keep Smaug distracted, while they seek to get the forges of Erebor firing? These are not isolated incidents, they all contribute to establishing an image of the Company of dwarves that Thorin would take over an army from the Iron Hills. They all contribute, they all work together.
To me, "I would take each and every one of these dwarves" is more than an in-universe response to Balin's skepticism, it carries meaning beyond the literal Quest of Erebor; It reflects upon everything the dwarves do in the first two films. These words carry a lot of thematic meaning to me, which AUJ and DOS follows up on, and reinforces. If BOTFA is going to split up the Company for the climactic battle - by no means a faulty thing to do; Even the oh-so-important Fellowship of the Ring split up - then it should be more coherent than simply "Thorin, Dwalin, Fíli, and Kíli each find a convenient goat and ride off, and we don't see anymore of the remaining Company until the battle is over".
When I say that two thirds of the Company was left behind, I don't mean it in an in-universe way, that they were literally left behind somewhere, not allowed to be in-universe participants; They very clearly are participating. I mean that they were left behind thematically.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Aug 8 2015, 6:22pm)
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