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Cirashala
Valinor
Aug 8 2015, 3:10am
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Calling Tolkien scholars/knowledgeable tornsibs- I have a debate with a friend and could use your help!
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Ok, I rarely post in the reading room so you will forgive my ignorance on things that are not found within the LOTR, TH, The Sil, or the appendices. I am not in possession of lovely sets like HoME, though it's definitely on my wish list!
Here's my question:
Are the Sylvan elves strictly descended from the Teleri that abandoned the Great March when confronted with the towering peaks of the Misty Mountains? Or did they eventually mix with Avari?
The reason I ask this is because I, with what I have read in Tolkien's works, understood that the Avari never actually heeded Orome's call to journey to Valinor and remained in Cuvienen, never to be heard from again. That's why they were called the "Avari"- the Unwilling. The Sylvan elves of Mirkwood and Lorien thus descended from these early Teleri, and thus are not Avari or possess Avari blood.
My friend found information on the Tolkien Gateway website that claims that the Sylvan elves are descended from both Teleri and Avari elves, after the Avari eventually wandered east to Mirkwood and mixed with them. This honestly doesn't ring a bell with me, because I cannot recall at any point in what I have read that references the Avari beyond that they refused the call and never left Cuvienen.
Does Tolkien ever address this issue and either confirm or deny Avarin blood in the Sylvan elves of Mirkwood and Lorien?
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Faleel
Rohan
Aug 8 2015, 3:47am
Post #2 of 30
(2008 views)
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isn't it spelled Silvan?
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Magradhaid
The Shire
Aug 8 2015, 3:49am
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This topic is not one that I'm too familiar with, having not reread some of the books for years - lately I focus more on the languages. I will, however, note that both the "Nandor" and "Avari" articles on Tolkien Gateway are flagged as needing to be rewritten to fit standards, and are also lacking sources. So it could be true, or could be false, but sources aren't given, and it entirely depends on how knowledgeable the person who wrote those sections is on the topic ... and for that matter, how much later editors tinkered with his/her contributions. You should take wikis with a grain of salt - especially ones that have infrequent sources.
An article having adequate sources, however, is not a guarantee that the information is correct. Sure, the source being referenced could say exactly what the editor is claiming, but that might be inappropriate in context (e.g. chronology), and other editors may not have noticed. While TolkienGateway is definitely a step above LotR.wikia (which is terrible, and unfixable at this point), it still has issues. Some areas are awful and need massive revision.
So what you're seeing on wiki articles isn't "finished", and the quality of individual articles greatly varies. If something has very few sources, or perhaps only links to websites containing others' speculation and not Tolkien's actual writings, I'd assume it's bunk until confirmed otherwise. It might be accurate, or parts of it might be, or it could all be hogwash. But without sources, there's no way of knowing - even for other editors who aren't versed in that topic.
A better thing to do is use the sources referenced within the article to look up those pages in the relevant book and see for yourself what Tolkien had to say. That may not provide proper context, but at least it's a start. Unfortunately, that isn't as viable for someone who doesn't own those particular books - though one can always ask about what they say on forums (here, for example).
Back onto topic: I don't know whether the Silvan Elves had Avarin blood or not, though I am more familiar on what Tolkien had to say about their languages throughout the decades (which changed a good deal).
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Cirashala
Valinor
Aug 8 2015, 3:51am
Post #4 of 30
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I am very sick right now with an infection and complications from a chronic issue, and am in pain and very much sleep deprived, so forgive the error in spelling 
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Cirashala
Valinor
Aug 8 2015, 3:54am
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I am fully supportive of your take on wikis
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I also agree that they are about as reliable, if not less, than wikipedia 
However, the person I'm in debate with supposedly acquired a PDF of the HoME series online (not legally) which states some quotes to support the Avari being Silvan argument. That's one of the reasons I asked on here- I figured SOMEONE on here has got to have the hard copies of HoME and can either confirm or deny my thoughts 
Where is Elthir when you need him? 
(This post was edited by Cirashala on Aug 8 2015, 3:56am)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Aug 8 2015, 8:18am
Post #6 of 30
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The Encyclopedia of Arda is pretty definitive.
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They have a good discussion of Sylvan Elves, Basically, they are a branch of the Teleri, with sub-branches in Mirkwood and Lorien. I do not think they are intermingled with Avari; in fact, I have not seen the Avari discussed in Tolkien except to note that they exist. If you have or can get hold of a copy of the Sil, there are official genealogies of Elves, Men, and Dwarves in the back.
HoME is certainly not a requirement for participation in the Reading Room! Some of our greatest participants haven't read beyond LotR (which, in fact, we will be reading in detail starting in September -- please join us!). Even brand new Tolkien readers are welcome, because they often have new insights, which we love!
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Aug 8 2015, 8:26am
Post #7 of 30
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HoME is, itself, not a reliable source.
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Tolkien revised his concept of Middle Earth history from the 19-teens until his death, and changed his mind many times about many matters, completely re-thinking things in contradictory ways. For example, depending on which section of HoME you read, Celeborn might have been a Sindar whom Galadriel met in Doriath, or a high-born Teleri whom she met in Aman before the exodus. And they might or might not have had a son. Etc.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 8 2015, 12:30pm
Post #8 of 30
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I think that there is no definitive answer.
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I believe that Tolkien never made this entirely clear. Members of the Avari might have eventually wandered into western Middle-earth to mix with the Teleri, or not. He did state that the Silvan Elves were much more like the Avari in language and traditions than the other Elves that took part in the Great Journey.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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dreamflower
Lorien
Aug 8 2015, 12:36pm
Post #9 of 30
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I'm not very knowledgable about Elves (my area of expertise is hobbits) but I can make suggestions about reading/acquiring HoMe and others of the more difficult to get volumes of Tolkien's work. It took many years to get them all, but here are some pointers.
If you just want to read a certain volume, the library can be your friend. Most local public libraries are probably lacking, but ILL (inter-library loan) can be useful. It's how I first got my hands on People of Middle-earth (Vol. 12) and
The Annotated Hobbit. If you have access to a college or university you might even find them on the shelves.
Keep an eye out at used book and thrift stores. I was able to pick up volumes 1 and 2 of The Book of Lost Tales for a dollar apiece at a thrift store. And sometimes you can find paperback editions of some HoMe volumes at used bookstores. If you order online, used copies are almost always way less expensive
Finally, did you mean it literally about the "wish list"? If so, it's a great strategy. I had put any of the books I didn't have on my Amazon wish list, About five years ago, my husband got me the remaining few volumes I was missing for Christmas, as well as The Father Christmas Letters and a couple of other books about Tolkien and his work.
If you are in no hurry and keep your eyes open, and don't care that some are paperback and they don't all "match", you can eventually get them all without breaking the bank.
Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.
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squire
Half-elven
Aug 8 2015, 2:38pm
Post #10 of 30
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Such a debate should first set terms for what is 'proof'
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I agree with Elizabeth and others that your friend may or may not be using HoME correctly, i.e., in context and with understanding of the author's past and future writings on the same subject. And of course, more generally, debates about 'canon', so -called, in Tolkien's work are very difficult because of the odd existence of extensive and detailed works published by his estate without his approval of the contents.
I do have most of the books in question, although I have never put much time into the history of the Elves. From a brief crawl through some of the indexes of the HoME books, I am reminded of how insanely complex the matter is. For one thing, an awful lot of Tolkien's efforts in naming the various branches of the Elves and in sketching out their travels, was done almost entirely to explain the differences in the resulting dialects and languages that he was tinkering with. As he famously said (though not about Lord of the Rings), the stories followed the languages, not the other way around.
Thus, for instance, in the early HoME volumes, in the parts corresponding to the Silmarillion chapter about the awakening of the Elves, there is no mention of the 'Avari' at all. None were unwilling; all followed the Valar to the west.
By the late 1930s he had decided that some did, in fact, remain in the east, refusing the call. But they were not called "Avari"; that term was used to describe the "Departed", i.e., those who left, not those who stayed. Later on, by simply redefining the word or changing what language it came from, Tolkien wrote that the "Avari" were the "Unwilling", those that refused the call of the Valar. That is the later meaning, and that is what we see in Christopher Tolkien's Silmarillion.
The "Silvan Elves" don't appear at all in the volumes of HoME that cover developments before the writing of The Lord of the Rings. The term was invented to account for the appearance of Elven lands in that book and its prequel The Hobbit, that did not then exist in the Silmarillion tradition. By the time Tolkien had finished his great epic, he realized that substantial sections of his nearly-complete Quenta Silmarillion were out of date, incomplete, or wrong. He spent a lot of the later 1940s and 1950s tinkering with the Silmarillion narratives, and trying to compress parts of it to fit with the Appendices of LotR, which were published in the mid 1950s. This is the period, for instance, in which Galadriel, the Ents, and Gandalf/Olorin were retrofitted into the Sil tales; there is no trace of them, or many other details relating to LotR, in the HoME volumes from before the second world war.
I did find one passage about the Silvan Elves in HoME XII, which covers the writings that became the LotR Appendices. As Tolkien tried to work out the ancestry of Imrahil of Dol Amroth, he realized he had to account for the legend that the prince had 'elven blood'. In a footnote to the anthropological essay "Of Dwarves and Men", Tolkien says:
The Silvan Elves were Middle Elves according to to the Numenorean classification, though unknown to [those Men] until later days: for they were like the Sindar Teleri, but were laggards in the hindmost companies who had never crossed the Misty Mountains and established small realms on either side of the Vales of Anduin. (Of these Lorien and the realm of Thranduil in Mirkwood were survivors in the Third Age.) - note 67, HoME XII, 329.
So by this passage, the Silvan Elves are specifically the Elves just east of the Misty Mountains, whom we encounter in The Hobbit and in The Lord of the Rings. There are no Silvan Elves further west, in Eriador or Beleriand; there are no Silvan Elves further east, in Rhun or other lands equivalent to Cuivenen the Elves' birthplace. There are none further south; none further north. The term was invented to fit later works (Hobbit/LotR) into earlier works (Sil), not to extend or explain a new language idea or make a moral statement about the travails of the First Children.
Of course this doesn't address the question of whether some of the Avari, so called, could not have drifted west and mixed with these lingering tribes of the Teleri. Perhaps there is another passage in HoME that says just that! All we would need to discuss it would be a fairly specific citation.
squire online:
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 8 2015, 2:45pm
Post #11 of 30
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In Quendi and Eldar Tolkien noted that yes, at some point Avari from the Third Clan had mingled with the Elves of the Anduin Vale.
'...the Lindarin elements in the western Avari were friendly to the Eldar, and willing to learn from them; and so close was the feeling of kinship between the remnants of the Sindar, the Nandor, and the Lindarin Avari, that later in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin they often became merged together.' (...) "The Avarin forms cited by the Loremasters were: kindi, cuind, hwenti, windan, kinn-lai, penni ... The form penni is cited as coming from the 'Wood-elven' speech of the Vale of Anduin, and these Elves were among the most friendly to the fugitives from Beleriand, and held themselves akin to the remnants of the Sindar.'
In this conception (noted elsewhere) some Avari had even migrated to Beleriand* (but see below)
However a later text published in Unfinished Tales reads:
'The Silvan Elves (Tawarwaith) were in origin Teleri, and so remoter kin of the Sindar, though even longer separated from them than the Teleri of Valinor.' (...) 'The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari; but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, members of the Third Clan, and they welcomed those of the Noldor and especially the Sindar who did not pass over the Sea but migrated eastward [i.e. at the beginning of the Second Age].'
No mention of Avari here, except to note that these Telerin Elves were hardly to be distinguished from Avari, a description which itself distinguishes them in my opinion, at least for the reader.
So... is this later text simply a less detailed description?
Or a new conception in itself (the Silvan Elves are all Telerin), compared to the earlier, more detailed Quendi And Eldar?
*there is also description in a later text (later than Quendi And Eldar) called Of Dwarves And Men which appears to say that no Avari had reached Beleriand.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 8 2015, 2:56pm)
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Cirashala
Valinor
Aug 8 2015, 3:45pm
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So it would appear that Tolkien was, indeed, inconsistent with the notion that the Avari wandered eastward long after the Great March. Therefore, it would depend on the timing of his writings and notes as to whether or not they did in the lore
So, if I understood everyone correctly, Tolkien's last notes on the subject indicate that the Avari never actually left Cuvienen? Therefore, logically we can deduce that his final thoughts on it would be established as being the most accurate, given that he'd tinkered with the Silmarillion and his elf origins and travels for the better part of a century. However, if I recall correctly, his final thoughts on Galadriel and Celeborn don't match up with the published novels either, so...
I have a feeling that this debate will end somewhat like the "Balrogs have wings" scenario- there is never going to be a firm resolution as to whether they were or not simply because Tolkien himself either wasn't sure (hadn't made up his mind by the time of his death), or because he didn't leave any indication that absolutely confirms or denies the subject in finality in writing.
I suppose it truly depends on what one views as canon- the published works by Tolkien himself, the published works including posthumous publishings (as far as the Sil and Unfinished Tales goes), or everything Tolkien ever wrote or noted about Middle-earth. The dangers of the last scenario is that, as everyone has said, he changed his mind so darn much that his notes are rife with inconsistency 
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 8 2015, 7:38pm
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author published
Hmm, for starters I'll add that I don't think Tolkien ever published any reference to "Avarin" Elves (someone correct me if I'm wrong about that). Description published by Tolkien himself reveals that the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien are "East-elves" and these are not considered Eldar according to Appendix F. The "West-Elves" are Eldar.
And we can say this much (for what it's worth) with respect to author published material: certain Silvan Elves of Lorien are said to have passed Over Sea according to Legolas, a notion also suggested in Appendix B. The description seems to refer to "Silvan Elves" in general, but again, that could be a simplification of the matter.
posthumously published
When moving into the world of posthumously published descriptions we can see that Tolkien imagined a migration of Avarin Elves. We even have various names for different clans, all based on variations of the term kwendi, including the Avarin Penni (kw- becomes p- in this Avarin example, and -nd- becomes -nn-), a clan associated with the Wood Elves of the Anduin Vale.
But as I say, then you have the later texts published in Unfinished Tales, including The Silvan Elves And Their Speech and Amroth and Nimrodel, where there doesn't seem to be any mention of Telerin Elves being mingled with Lindarin Avari. Unless I missed a mention here (again corrections welcome, if so).
Some might say that the Quendi And Eldar scenario (in which there is mingling in the Anduin Vale) is never later specifically denied.
Avari migrating to Beleriand is at least arguably denied in Of Dwarves And Men, but there the matter of the Anduin Vale is simply not referenced either way with respect to this question. And so the argument might go that the more detailed scenario is merely not mentioned in these later accounts, and can be nudged in...
... others might say that according to the latest accounts the Silvan Elves are Telerin, no mention of Avari merging with them, which agrees, generally speaking at least, with the Silvan Elves of Lorien passing Over Sea in The Lord of the Rings. Amroth's words to Nimrodel are (essentially) that those kindred who took up the March but abandoned it East of the Misty Mountains are allowed to pass over sea.
And (some might argue) a true Avar at heart would still be "unwillling" to pass Over Sea, as the very name Avari suggests. Proponents of the "nudge in certain stuff from Quendi And Eldar" argument will likely note that while the Silvan folk of Lorien could pass Over Sea, the Avari among them would not, or need not, although they had essentially become "Silvan Elves" after merging with them.
I think there is a case for the later texts perhaps simply not delving in the Avarin question, although on the other hand, one might think at least one reference to the Quendi And Eldar scenario would appear, if in fact it still was "true" in Tolkien's imagination.
Not very helpful I know
One "inconsistency" with author-published works concerns the characterization of the Silvan Elves as Eldar. In one of the late texts (the one I quoted earlier) Tolkien notes that the Silvan Elves are "Eldar in origin", but whatever that means, he had already published that the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood and Lorien are East-elves and not Eldar.
"East-elves" can be a fairly general grouping in my opinion. That doesn't necessarily mean there are Avari in Mirkwood or Lorien, but merely that the term is large enough to include the Telerin Elves who began the March and stopped east of the Misty Mountains, and Avarin Elves who remained somewhere in the East, even if they split up and moved from the Waters of Awakening...
... as long as they remained "East enough", they can be East-elves
In other words, when I claim the East-elves of Mirkwood and Lorien are not Eldar that doesn't mean I am characterizing them as Avari, as some seem to think, especially those going by posthumously published descriptions of Eldar (the constructed Silmarillion)!
Somewhat like "West-elves" includes those Elves who passed Over Sea, plus the Sindar only (Appendix F), as the Sindar still passed "West enough" apparently, compared to other Elves.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 8 2015, 7:53pm)
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squire
Half-elven
Aug 8 2015, 8:23pm
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Everything you say makes great sense.
I would add that, in the published accounts, we have also the passage in The Hobbit where the "Silvan" or "Wood-elves" first appear in the legendarium:
The feasting people were Wood-elves, of course. These are not wicked folk. If they have a fault it is distrust of strangers. Though their magic was strong, even in those days they were wary. They differed from the High Elves of the West, and were more dangerous and less wise. For most of them (together with their scattered relations in the hills and mountains) were descended from the ancient tribes that never went to Faerie in the West. There the Light-elves and the Deep-elves and the Sea-elves went and lived for ages, and grew fairer and wiser and more learned, and invented their magic and their cunning craft, in the making of beautiful and marvellous things, before some came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon but loved best the stars; and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost. They dwelt most often by the edges of the woods, from which they could escape at times to hunt, or to ride and run over the open lands by moonlight or starlight; and after the coming of Men they took ever more and more to the gloaming and the dusk. Still elves they were and remain, and that is Good People. - Hobbit VIII
Of course no one had heard of The Silmarillion at this point, and it's unclear just how much connection Tolkien intended these Mirkwood "Wood-elves" to have with the specific kingdoms and such in his fully-written-out but never-to-be-published tales. From this description alone they could be either the Sindarin, or the Avari!
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 8 2015, 8:45pm
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I often forget The Hobbit description, even if it remains open about things, as you note. JD Rateliff, author of The History of The Hobbit argues that at the time of writing, these Elves were part of the "Sea Elves"
'For example, the third group Tolkien mentions in The Hobbit, the Sea-elves, became divided between those who actually crossed the sea and reached Elvenhome (the Teleri) and those who remained behind in Beleriand with Thingol (the Sindar or Grey Elves); this latter group became the wood-elves of our story -- cf the reference in the first sketchy outline to the Dwarves' 'capture by the Sea elves' (p. 229), meaning the wood-elves of Mirkwood.'
JD Rateliff, History of The Hobbit
Then JDR notes that 'Dark Elves' could sometimes include those who set out, by fell by the wayside. So at the time The Hobbit was written, JDR seems to say that Tolkien equated the Wood-elves, conceptually I mean (compared to later terms and ideas), not with the Avari but with lingering Teleri.
Unless I've missed something here too
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 8 2015, 8:49pm
Post #16 of 30
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The term Silvan Elves isn't even very helpful as, semantically, it is just a more fancy way of saying Wood-elves. Even that passage in The Hobbit only specifies that most of them (meaning not all) were of one kindred, meaning that at least some of them (the Avari?) were somehow different than the others.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 8 2015, 9:44pm
Post #17 of 30
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I think there were "Avari" in BOLT
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... at least in essence. I once chose to utter;
"In Qenta Noldorinwa (1930) Tolkien does not mention the 'Avari' as in the Elves who did not leave the Awakening Waters, but this could be due to compression, as they were noted in The Book of Lost Tales. Or so CJRT wonders, although it's not certain. In any case QN reveals that: "Many of the Elfin race were lost upon the long dark roads, and they wandered in the woods or mountains of the world, and never came to Valinor..." These are the Ilkorindi, or Dark Elves, but we still have the Sea-elves' or Solosimpi in this text as well, with Elwe as their lord, and some of these remained in 'Middle-earth' and had reached the coasts. In essence the 'Sindar' of later tales!"
I wrote that in 2013, and I assume I meant Christopher Tolkien wonders if the Avari were simply not mentioned due to compression, rather than he wonders if "refusers" (if not called Avari) existed in The Book of Lost Tales.
You didn't say otherise in any case, as you began with the early Silmarillion versions, which are different from BOLT, but it is interesting now, given that compression might be the explanation for lack of the Avari in QN, compared to compression possibly explaining the "lack" of mention of Avari (in later texts) among the Telerin Silvans of Mirkwood and Lorien.
But then again, it's hard to judge by "lack of mention" in both cases!
So I have added nothing, in a sense 
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Aug 8 2015, 10:16pm
Post #18 of 30
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Or at least I remember someone saying that.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 9 2015, 3:31pm
Post #19 of 30
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It might have been my brother again. I'm handsomer than him, unless you ask him of course
I think there is another late text in Unfinished Tales where it's said that the Silvan Elves "were never wholly free of an unquiet and a yearning for the Sea which at times drove some of them to wander from their homes."
Was Tolkien thinking about (and including) "some" Avari here, when he wrote this?
Looking at three web sources:
1) according to (the current version of) Wikipedia it is stated rather factually that there are Avari among the Silvan Elves, but there is no reference to The War of The Jewels (Quendi And Eldar) or any other source for this statement. Although the page does link to...
2) ... Tolkien Gateway, which agrees and does reference War of the Jewels. They employ the term Nelyarin Avari, which is Avari from the Third Clan using the numerical name.
3) The current version of The Encyclopedia of Arda does not seem to reference the matter, nor the text Quendi And Eldar.
Sorry, sometimes I find the confusion interesting! Although I am skipping over the further confusion here with respect to certain draft descriptions for the Appendices.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 9 2015, 3:44pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Aug 9 2015, 5:02pm
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You may be handsomer (since he is older)
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But he is more galint (sic].
And how can you "think there is another late text in Unfinished Tales" and then quote it exactly? Methinks you "know" that there is such a text. Since there is, which Christopher says dates from 1969 or later.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Aug 9 2015, 6:07pm
Post #21 of 30
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LOL! The answer is: I did remember the source but couldn't remember the date, and my silly, lazy, more galint brother had the quote, but not the date! I just copied him, as I too am lazy sometimes.
I was pretty sure it was late though. As you confirmed. Thanks
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Aug 10 2015, 9:37am
Post #22 of 30
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Glad you got some helpful answers (after a less than helpful initial response)
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Just wanted to second Elizabeth's comment that we are about to resume our read-through of LOTR, starting on Two Towers in mid September - see my 'subtle' footer for links. Also, that expert levels of knowledge are definitely not a requirement to join in - all you need is to have read this week's chapter and have a question or an opinion, or a personal reaction to what you've just read.
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Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Aug 10 2015, 4:10pm
Post #23 of 30
(1658 views)
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...we remember that it is very likely to look like a put-down if someone just comments on spelling (or grammar, punctuation etc.) without offering any other help whatsoever with the substance of the actual query?
That's true whether or not that a put-down was what was intended.
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Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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Darkstone
Immortal
Aug 10 2015, 4:52pm
Post #24 of 30
(1649 views)
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Despite (or perhaps because of) the Reading Room's intimidating reputation, comments on mistakes of spelling, grammar, and/or punctuation are generally frowned upon. Or at least they were in my day.
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Mathom House Bestsellers:
All I Really Need to Know I Learned in the Pits of Orthanc
Zen and the Art of Cockle Boat Maintenance
Fifty Shades of Gandalf the Grey
Coney Stew for the Soul
Rhosgobel Rabbits - Unsafe At Any Speed
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Cirashala
Valinor
Aug 10 2015, 5:01pm
Post #25 of 30
(1649 views)
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I wasn't offended
Here in the US, there is a place called the Sylvan learning center, so while I am typically exceedingly good at grammar and spelling, sometimes that one slips the mind Especially if I am tired and in pain.
No worries here
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