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brotherbeck
Rivendell
Aug 8 2015, 6:11pm
Post #51 of 66
(667 views)
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Watching this film is so incredibly frustrating and it makes me really wish PJ worked with a better editor / editors. I don't just mean technical editing ability, but someone who would really go to bat for the story so-to-speak and say things like "Hey, you know what? This funeral scene is actually far more important than a seventeenth scene of Alfrid literally just doing the exact same stupid thing over and over. This funeral scene is an extremely important and emotional scene and it gives the audience a chance to grieve for and say goodbye to much loved characters that they have fallen in love with over the hours of this trilogy so far. It is much more important to the story than Tauriel learning about love or Legolas learning that his mom loved him."
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Macfeast
Rohan
Aug 8 2015, 6:29pm
Post #53 of 66
(650 views)
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... from an in-universe perspective, but not very narratively satisfying, in my mind. Of course, it could be that I feel this way because the remaining dwarves are not seen again in the context of the battle; If we had seen the remaining dwarves do their thing on the battlefield, if we had seen someone like Balin take command, if we had seen the nine dwarves collaborate in aiding the Iron Hills army and turn the tide of the battle, then it might have seemed more like a deliberate plan. I don't necessarily need to have the entire plan spelled out, but I would have liked to see it play out.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Aug 8 2015, 6:32pm)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 8 2015, 7:00pm
Post #54 of 66
(628 views)
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Because there is so much good and beauty here, and so much potential, and what a cast!
And it's not even that Ryan Gage isn't superlative or Legolas isn't Legolas and so on...but I hafta think that some of PJ's staff were also watching the TE before it went to theaters - maybe even with spouses around, friends, girlfriends and EVERYONE is afraid to say "you know that scene with Alfrid pushing everyone aside is a bit much - abandon the cripples?" (And besides, re the DOS EE, I am not sure that Alfrid is all THAT bad, not in DOS anyway, they really hammed it up in BOFA so there's some inconsistency there anyway for me).
And no-one says, in the editing room, that a few lines/scenarios are pretty cringe-worthy, when in the same production you have scenes like Bilbo/Balin?
No-one says "so, what, Fili seems to have been misplaced somewhere" - and what about the funeral - IMO tho for me it wasn't as critical as some other things - I was just reading last night an essay talking again why Gimli and Legolas' relationship was so significant - so with Thorin and Thranduil's history, Thranduil being at the funeral, and the funeral itself, wasn't worthy of attention?
Beorn? (I am still smarting over Beorn and especially, Beorn coming for Thorin - for me that is a significant book moment and honor for this Mountain King).
I suppose none of these things perhaps would be of interest to young children which evidently was a concern of PJ & co., but IMO BOFA was never a children's movie anyway - and there were funny-looking trolls, cool monsters, and Bard's kids to engage the younger set, without having filler that took screen time and was a fail IMO.
Because watching Tauriel cry or Legolas having father issues that come out of nowhere, really, probably didn't engage young children either. IF that is why some decisions re screen time were made. It might well have been PJ, Fran and Philippa doing something and liking it, and PJ said he was going to make these movies his way, and so we have this "romp" of a film through some pretty serious stuff.
Although - a thought - if PJ & co. really believe folks will watch these films back-to-back, maybe - tho I hope this isn't the case - BOFA was kept lighter in that if you watch FOTR immediately after, he didn't want to "shortchange" the "epicness and gravity" of LOTR. If so, for me it's a fail - it's unlikely I will ever watch the Hobbit and LOTR back to back, and not focusing on making the Hobbit films as good as they could be and worrying about LOTR I don't think helped the Hobbit films.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Aug 9 2015, 3:42am
Post #55 of 66
(553 views)
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But Alfrid IS the Jar Jark Binks of this trilogy
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In his case I'd say a LITTLE would go a long way, but we got way too much. People wonder about the change in actors for Fili (and whether that hurt his character development), but WHY was the Master's role after Laketown given to his underling? It's not like Stephen Fry is a bad actor or anything. And really, they could edit out every one of Alfrid's scenes from the time Bard stopped his lynching to his dressing in drag, and it would make no difference to the movie - except free up a few minutes to focus on more important characters, like the Dwarves
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Aug 9 2015, 5:48am
Post #56 of 66
(542 views)
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Don't forget, the revised timing statement from Bill Hunt still quotes most of the additional material
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as being added to the battle at the end..
First, it’s going to be about 20 minutes longer than the theatrical cut (in the neighborhood of 164 minutes long). Jackson had said previously the extended matertial would be about 30 minutes, but I’ve managed to confirm the 164 minute runtime with sources directly involved, who tell me that the footage is “significant” and most of it has been added to the battle at the end.
Of course we don't know yet exactly how much is left for elsewhere, other than PB definitely thought we'd get more Dol Guldur, but your list could be pretty accurate for the sort of things not to expect. Personally I dearly hope we get the Bilbo-Bofur conversation as he slips out of Erebor, but looking at how the TE structure flows at that point, we get Thranduil telling his guards to shoot anything that moves, then camera cuts to Bilbo coming down over the battlements. So inserting the Bofur moment there would ruin that link. <shrug>.
I would also have loved to see a scene with Bilbo giving Thranduil a necklace and being named Elf-friend, but I'm pretty much resigned to that never happening... 
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
(This post was edited by Eleniel on Aug 9 2015, 5:52am)
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Aug 9 2015, 6:00am
Post #57 of 66
(532 views)
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You guys are too pessimistic imo.
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I actually expect quite a bit of the scenes you listed to be in the EE. I think many are overestimating how long certain bits will take.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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adt100
Rohan
Aug 9 2015, 8:57am
Post #58 of 66
(491 views)
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The final 3rd needs the most focus!
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The first 1/3 was pretty much perfect for me, the last 3rd though is where most of the attention is needed clearly. Dol Guldur could do with a bit of extension but there aren't many scenes in the first half that need to be added to in the way the last half does.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Aug 9 2015, 6:36pm
Post #59 of 66
(424 views)
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In his case I'd say a LITTLE would go a long way, but we got way too much. People wonder about the change in actors for Fili (and whether that hurt his character development), but WHY was the Master's role after Laketown given to his underling? It's not like Stephen Fry is a bad actor or anything. And really, they could edit out every one of Alfrid's scenes from the time Bard stopped his lynching to his dressing in drag, and it would make no difference to the movie - except free up a few minutes to focus on more important characters, like the Dwarves
Personally I think given the *unholy* chemistry LOL between Ryan Gage and Stephen Hunter it would have been amusing to have both of them survive into Dale, bickering all the while - and IMO there was some room for some genuinely amusing moments there.
Well, OK, as a kind of satisfying conclusion to wholesale greed that didn't go on and on in a TE, one or the other had to go, I guess. And I can see with Alfrid being younger, more mobile, and used to functioning as a toady to anyone in power, so there's a decent logical flow when he latches onto Bard. IMO the interactions and the LOL looks that Bard gets dealing with Alfrid are pretty good *snigger*.
So I can see, re this organic film-making process, Philippa and PJ and Fran are watching the monitors and getting amused and start writing for this character - but. Re:
And really, they could edit out every one of Alfrid's scenes from the time Bard stopped his lynching to his dressing in drag, and it would make no difference to the movie - except free up a few minutes to focus on more important characters, like the Dwarves
Yep . Just seems in a desire to focus on certain characters in BOFA - which as movies go seems to be considered a good thing as too many stories going on with too many characters can confuse an audience - that with all the tight editing, the dwarves as a Company and individually got sidelined mostly. That as delightful as Alfrid could be, his scenes were really "EE material" that may have been enjoyable filler of sorts.
And, outrageously, Alfrid ends up with more lines and focus than the heir to Erebor, the superb dwarf actors - the Company we had followed across Middle Earth. But who can say? If it's really true that PJ sat in a theater viewing BOFA like the rest of us, just as a fan, maybe for the first time, really, it hit home that there were some real imbalances in BOFA.
I hope so.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Aug 9 2015, 7:52pm
Post #60 of 66
(402 views)
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I think the question about the Master's role is easily resolved....
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They had to get the Master off the scene quickly to bring Bard forward as leader of the Lake people. Tolkien does it by leaving the Master in charge of the women and children beside the Lake while Bard takes the army to the Mountain. They didn't have time for that in the film and wanted the women and children in Dale - just as they wanted the women and children at Helm's Deep: it raises the emotional stakes in the battle. So rather than waste time they found a quick and dramatic way to despatch the Master.
Seems pretty obvious to me and I think it was a good choice on their part. The problem it left, which they didn't solve and perhaps didn't even see, was that while Alfrid made a very good foil for Stephen Fry's Master, both of them being overstated and larger then life, Alfrid did not work nearly so well as a foil for Bard. He is there to show up Bard's qualities as leader and he does do that, but Bard in the film is much more understated and subtle. Against him, everything Afrid does feels exaggerated. They needed to tone him down a bit and use him less. But as Elanor from Rohan pointed out, it isn't easy to predict which characters will become audience favourites and Peter Jackson and co. were impressed with Ryan Gage's performance - and to be fair, there were very few complaints about Alfrid before BotFA.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Aug 9 2015, 11:12pm
Post #61 of 66
(374 views)
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I know hobbits are easily unnoticed by most, but are Thranduil's elves blind?!?! Never thought I'd put "blind" and "elf" in the same sentence....
Sorry, a wee niggle about that point. Inserting Bofur might actually cause the focus to go away from that rather obvious blunder on Thranduil's company's part (or have him wearing the Ring while climbing down the wall, in which case it suddenly makes sense).
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Aug 9 2015, 11:23pm
Post #62 of 66
(366 views)
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in the film you have Legolas and Tauriel at Gundabad -> Thranduil giving the order -> Bilbo coming down over the battlements.
In the EE you have Legolas and Tauriel at Gundabad -> Bilbo and Bofur -> Thranduil giving the order -> Bilbo coming down over the battlements.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Aug 9 2015, 11:41pm
Post #63 of 66
(358 views)
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I doubt the Bilbo/Bofur conversation will make it in, and here's why:
They already had a heart to heart chat prior to Bilbo "leaving" in AUJ right before they fell into the goblin tunnels.
Now, I've REALLY disagreed with PJ regarding some omissions he has made (like the dwarves coming before Thranduil, etc) and some of the additions he's kept (pretty much everything Legolas/Tauriel after leaving Mirkwood, and too much Alfrid), but if he omits that scene, in this moment I'd have to agree with him.
The scene in AUJ was beautiful, and no doubt was reminiscent of the scene we wish to see (just put in a different part of the film).
But to put another heart to heart prior to Bilbo leaving would be repetitive at this point, as we've basically already seen it within the trilogy, which was, for all intents and purposes, meant to be watched back to back.
So from a filmmaking perspective, it would be like having two "Blunt the knives" dishes sequences just with the song tweaked a bit to mean "That's what Bard Marley hates!" at Bard's house- one is great, but the second one ends up being too repetitive and wastes screentime that could be meant for things we haven't already seen yet (something BO5A is sorely in need of!)
If we were going to have an extra hour of footage, I'd say go for it! But with only an extra 20 minutes, it would be far better to have other scenes involving the dwarves (like Fili questioning Thorin, or a brotherly moment between Fili and Kili) and quiet moments and things like the funeral and ways to tie things up and help the pacing of the last 1/3 of the film than it would be to have a conversation that's 90% similar to one that we have already seen back in AUJ.
IF they decide to keep the scene, how about we put Bombur in Bofur's place? Then we'd get to hear more than one line from him (and see him actually saying it, since his line in AUJ was spoken from the troll dinnertime heap so we don't actually see his mouth moving, just hear it and subtitles credit him with it).
(This post was edited by Cirashala on Aug 9 2015, 11:43pm)
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Aug 10 2015, 6:26am
Post #65 of 66
(313 views)
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Of course it would be great to give Bombur that scene instead, you know, the character whose part it actually was in the book!  But that opportunity is long gone...
It depends how different that second Bofur conversation is to the AUJ one, naturally, and whether it adds or takes away anything from the suspense being built at that moment. Does it work for Bofur to know that Bilbo has the Arkenstone ahead of the later reveal on the battlements? Should Bofur be given the dilemma of choosing between loyalty to his king or a friend trying to do what he thinks s the right thing, and so on....
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Aug 10 2015, 6:33am
Post #66 of 66
(310 views)
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On the contrary, I'll be really surprised if we don't get that scene.
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Rather than seeing it as "too reminiscent" of the AUJ scene, I expect it to be in BECAUSE of its similarity. The two scenes will work as bookends to their friendship.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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