|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
DainPig
Gondor
Jul 19 2015, 3:26am
Post #1 of 27
(3253 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Do the people of Middearth know something about Gandalf's origin?
|
Can't Post
|
|
Gandalf is very known in Middearth. But the people don't question themselfs: who is this guy?
Theoden, Bilbo, Thorin, Denethor, Aragorn, Borormir.... they know Gandalf is a Maia?
(sorry for the bad english)
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 19 2015, 7:33am
Post #2 of 27
(3193 views)
Shortcut
|
The White Council knows, including (obviously) Cirdan, who is or is not on the WC (we don't know its official makeup), but is clearly very powerful in his way. The rest seem to know him as an exceptionally long-lived Wizard who's good at fireworks, or maybe some peculiar variety of Elf (since they're known to live forever). Folks in the Shire, Bree, and other places are just used to him, in a fond sort of way, and clearly some circles (e.g. Denethor, Grima) as an irritant and adversary.
Tolkien devotees spend a lot of time parsing these questions, but there's no indication that the characters themselves did.
|
|
|
squire
Half-elven
Jul 19 2015, 1:51pm
Post #3 of 27
(3160 views)
Shortcut
|
|
At one point Pippin actually does reflect on who or what Gandalf is, but it's presented as an oddity.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Good point that Tolkien does not explore his characters' self-consciousness very much. Certainly, within the story, there is no such category of beings as the Maiar; that term was devised by Tolkien for his own reference when he rewrote the Silmarillion after finishing LotR, and is so much of a catch-all that it isn't very useful in actually understanding who is who, aside from the intrinsic semi-divinity of such a being's spirit.
Since much of Lord of the Rings is written from the hobbits' point of view, we do occasionally get a hint of how they regarded Gandalf and what they knew of his nature as a wizard. In the first book, Strider tells them (and us) the surprising news that Gandalf is one of the most powerful beings in Middle-earth. But the hobbits shrug it off as uninteresting or irrelevant to their situation:
‘I do not know of anything else [than the Black Riders] that could have hindered him, except the Enemy himself,’ said Strider. ... 'Gandalf is greater than you Shire-folk know - as a rule you can only see his jokes and toys.'
Pippin yawned. ‘I am sorry,’ he said, ‘but I am dead tired.' - LotR I.10
Much later in the story, we return to the same question, and we are shown for perhaps the only time a hobbit with some vague curiosity about the nature of the great beings he has become attached to:
Pippin perceived that Gandalf had the greater power [than Denethor] and the deeper wisdom, and a majesty that was veiled. And he was older, far older. ‘How much older?’ he wondered, and then he thought how odd it was that he had never thought about it before. Treebeard had said something about wizards, but even then he had not thought of Gandalf as one of them. What was Gandalf? In what far time and place did he come into the world, and when would he leave it? - LotR V.1
Notice the quite remarkable point, in a Tolkien story, where Pippin actually reflects for once on his own incuriousity!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Jul 19 2015, 2:34pm
Post #4 of 27
(3154 views)
Shortcut
|
As Elizabeth already touched upon, Gandalf -- itself not a Westron name but a substitution for a Westron name of similar meaning -- meant "Elvish wight with a magic staff" according to Tolkien, who notes (Unfinished Tales) that while Gandalf was not an Elf, he would be associated with Elves, by some, due to his alliance and friendship with Elves.
Ultimately JRRT worked the "elf part" of Mithrandir's Westron name in nicely, in my opinion.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jul 19 2015, 2:38pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 19 2015, 3:06pm
Post #5 of 27
(3140 views)
Shortcut
|
As has been noted, Cirdan and the other members of the White Council know that the Istari are from the West (obviously the other Istari know exacty who is Gandalf). A few (Galadriel, Glorfindel, Cirdan?) might have even known him in his Maia form. Aragorn becomes a good friend to Gandalf and might know his origins. I think that Legolas and Thranduil probably know, as does Celeborn.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 19 2015, 3:07pm)
|
|
|
Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jul 19 2015, 11:04pm
Post #6 of 27
(3092 views)
Shortcut
|
|
We as readers don't really question
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
In the Hobbit or in the early chapters of Lotr we just assume that he is a mighty Wizard, here to help and leave it at that. Then later on we see him do remarkable things, but his origin is never questioned until later for the more inquisitive of readers!
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 19 2015, 11:33pm
Post #7 of 27
(3090 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I'm not at all sure it would matter...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
...to readers who never go beyond the scope of TH/LotR. Gandalf, as "mighty Wizard" is perfectly satisfactory. Do people really wonder who this "Elbereth" that Frodo and Sam invoke might be, or are we just swept along with the action?
It's really those of us who find out about The West and all that that implies that are intrigued and awed to know that there has been a genuine maia among us right along!
|
|
|
Meneldor
Valinor
Jul 20 2015, 1:39am
Post #8 of 27
(3085 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Yes, I remember when I read the Sil for the first time
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
and first made the connection between Olorin and Gandalf.
Mind. Blown. 
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
|
|
|
Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jul 20 2015, 1:01pm
Post #9 of 27
(3019 views)
Shortcut
|
At times he would take on an Elvish form,
and at times he would:
Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
-JRR Tolkien
|
|
|
Entwife Wandlimb
Lorien
Jul 20 2015, 3:59pm
Post #10 of 27
(3004 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Gandalf as a prophet or school teacher
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
In a letter that was made public last year, Tolkein wrote:
All teaching is exhausting, and depressing and one is seldom comforted by knowing when one has had some effect. I wish I could now tell some of mine (of long ago) how I remember them and things they said, though I was (only, as it appeared) looking out of the window or giggling at my neighbour And I get the feeling the the wise in Middle Earth are generally regarded as school teachers are by their students -- people who are useful in so far as they can help them achieve their goals, but people who are regarded with astonishment when seen at the grocery store or swimming pool, as if they have no life beyond the school room, and no personal history themselves.
I think Gandalf and the Rangers are also similar to Jesus in the gospels, where he would say and do astonishing things but even his own disciples didn't understand who he was or the magnitude of what he was doing until he revealed it to them after Pentecost. Like the persecuted prophets of the Old Testament, their miracles and prophesies were not met with wonder and affection so much as annoyance and dismissiveness.
I am reminded of an adult child wondering about the youth of a deceased grandparent -- you take them for granted until it is too late to ask them to tell them about their life before you.
http://www.theguardian.com/...en-letter-lord-rings
|
|
|
squire
Half-elven
Jul 20 2015, 5:52pm
Post #11 of 27
(2997 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Nice thoughts, great letter, and welcome back
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Funny how these letters from Tolkien drop out of books or show up at auction, decades after his death and the publication of his Letters. I love that he wishes his teachers could know that he was, in fact, paying attention.
I'm not sure I exactly agree that this is a good analogy for us to think about how the folk of Middle-earth regarded Gandalf. The world of Middle-earth - medievalized but populated by many sentient and semi-sentient races, immune to progress, threatened by the incarnation of Evil in a way we are not, and suffused with actual magic - is so different from ours that I always hesitate to project my own perceptions of such things onto the people in the stories. Adventure, moral qualms, love of life and beauty, those I feel I can identify with. Seeing the great and the powerful as people with no "personal lives" does not seem right, somehow; it implies that the lesser folk do have what we call personal lives, and there's very little evidence of, or emphasis on, that in this story/world.
But I also like your extension of the original question, about Gandalf and his reception, to the Rangers. Tolkien deliberately makes them mysterious and weirdly powerful also, showing us that there are hierarchies of greatness above the common throng, as it were. And just as with Gandalf and the wizards, we see that the folk of Bree and the Shire have, it seems, almost no curiosity about the wanderers' origins, homes, and histories. It seems that reflection and inquiry, in a scientific or knowing sense, just isn't a card in Middle-earth's deck - the mark, perhaps, of a society or world in a state of decline or depression, which is what I think Tolkien wants to convey to us.
And welcome back to the Reading Room, Wanda! We've missed you!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
|
|
|
Entwife Wandlimb
Lorien
Jul 20 2015, 6:49pm
Post #12 of 27
(2988 views)
Shortcut
|
Thanks very much, squire! So good to "see" you again!
I think you make a good point about the dangers of over-generalizing the people of Middle Earth, and applying modern values to ancient people. I still think that it is pretty safe to do with the Hobbits, who I think are often stand-ins for 20th century Englishmen. If you consider LotR and The Hobbit coming-of-age tales, then I think it's natural for the hobbits to regard Gandalf as a teacher. For example, when Gandalf leaves the company in The Hobbit, he says he has "some pressing business away south; and I am already late through bothering with you people." Do they say, really, anything we can help with? Or, so sorry to keep you, who's waiting? No, they simply look understandably glum.
DainPig asked if the people don't question, "who is this guy?" And if Theoden, Bilbo, Thorin, Denethor, Aragorn, Borormir know Gandalf is a Maia. As you mentioned in your post about Pippin, we can't really know what those other than the hobbits know. I'd say maybe Aragorn would know, but probably not the others, although it seems the information would have been in the library of Minas Tirith but disregarded - back to your "society in decline" problem.
But you get me thinking that the ignorance of the common people isn't entirely their fault since the Rangers and Gandalf seem intent on concealing themselves. Wormtongue accuses Gandalf and the three hunters as being "ragged wanders in grey, and you yourself the most beggar-like of the four!" Wormtongue is twisted, but Gandalf is pretending to be a weak old man in need of a staff. Their humble appearance is seems to be a test of the virtue of others -- will they be met with hospitality and courtesy when they appear to be beggars? Gandalf being grey - undefined, not what he seems -- is part of the "All that is gold does not glitter / Not all those who wander are lost" theme. Is Fangorn evil or good? Is the Queen of the Woods? How are people to discern if Denethor or Theoden or Saruman or Gandalf are to be trusted? Even the hunters in the woods can't tell if Gandalf the White is good until he reveals himself. So, Gandalf seems to be deliberately mysterious.
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 20 2015, 10:18pm
Post #13 of 27
(2964 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Hmm, what does the library at Minas Tirith know?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Somehow, Gandalf's nature and origin seems to me unlikely to be there. I imagine it as containing mostly archival records of Gondor back to its earliest days, and possibly even some records rescued from Numenor. Including Isildur's journals seems appropriate, but Gandalf's history not so much.
But this raises the question of what the Gondorian rulers may have known about Saruman. They did, after all, give him the use of Orthanc, and regarded him as an important strategic ally on their northern flank. Who/what do you suppose they thought he was?
|
|
|
Entwife Wandlimb
Lorien
Jul 21 2015, 12:13am
Post #14 of 27
(2950 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Saruman and Gandalf and old scrolls
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Maybe you are right about the limited scope of that library. What we know is in there sounds like what you say:
In Appendix B:
"If indeed you look only... for records of ancient days, and the beginnings of the City, read on!" he said. "... But unless you have more skill even than Saruman, who has studied here long, you will find naught that is not well known to me, who am master of the lore of this City. So said Denethor. And yet there lie in his hoards many records that few now can read, even of the lore-masters, for their scripts and tongues have become dark to later men."
What would the Gondorian leaders have known about Saruman?What did Beren know about Saruman when he gave him the keys of Orthanc? Appendix A says Sauruman came to the coronation of Fréaláf bearing gifts. Would they have known the wizards appeared with the first ships of the Númenóreans?
In the Silm., it says:
And the loremasters among them [ the Dúnedain] learned also the High Eldarin tongue of the Blessed Realm, in which much story and song was preserved from the beginning of the world; and they made letters and scrolls and books, and wrote in them many things of wisdom and wonder in the high tide of their realm, of which all is now forgot. So, it seems like there could be some Dunedain gems in the library of Gondor which only Gandalf could read (I like to imagine those records few can read include a bestiary and Who's Who of ME) but probably not. Rats.
And Faramir doesn't talk about learning about Gandalf from the scrolls. When Frodo asked Faramir about the Grey Pilgrim, he gives the names of Gandalf, Mithrandir, and Incanus and "..I learned a little of him, when he would teach, and that was seldom."
I'd forgotten about what Treebeard told Pippin about Saruman and wizards in general:
'Saruman is a Wizard,' answered Treebeard. 'More than that I cannot say. I do not know the history of Wizards. They appeared first after the Great Ships came over the Sea; but if they came with the Ships I never can tell. Saruman was reckoned great among them, I believe. He gave up wandering about and minding the affairs of Men and Elves, some time ago -- you would call it a very long time ago: and he settled down at Angrenost, or Isengard as the Men of Rohan call it. He was very quiet to begin with, but his fame began to grow. He was chosen to be head of the White Council, they say; but that did not turn out too well. I wonder now if even then Saruman was not turning to evil ways. But at any rate he used to give no trouble to his neighbours. I used to talk to him... I told him many things that he would never have found out by himself; but he never repaid me in like kind. I cannot remember that he ever told me anything. And he got more and more like that; his face ... became like windows in a stone wall: windows with shutters inside.
I like that imagery -- "windows with shutters inside." Wizards maintain their mystery.
What do you think?
|
|
|
squire
Half-elven
Jul 21 2015, 12:53am
Post #15 of 27
(2945 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Evidently the rulers of Gondor thought Saruman and Gandalf were of a kind of unusual High-Elf.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
In the essay on the Istari (Wizards) in Unfinished Tales, we probably learn as much as we're ever going to about the wizards and how they were perceived by the inhabitants of Middle-earth. This passage is the most complete one regarding how the "Men" of the north and west saw the Istari:
Among Men they were supposed (at first) by those that had dealings with them to be Men who had acquired lore and arts by long and secret study. ... . In that time Men saw them seldom and heeded them little. But as the shadow of Sauron began to grow and take shape again, ... Men perceived that they did not die, but remained the same (unless it were that they aged somewhat in looks), while the fathers and sons of Men passed away. Men, therefore, grew to fear them, even when they loved them, and they were held to be of the Elven-race (with whom, indeed, they often consorted). - "The Istari", in Unfinished Tales.
It's clear from much of the rest of the essay and notes that the High Elves knew quite a lot more about the actual nature of these strange emissaries of the Valar. Based on that, I'd be very surprised if, as has been suggested in this thread, Thranduil and Legolas of Mirkwood knew much more about Gandalf than Boromir and Denethor did. They were Elves, and wise in the way all Elves were, but they were not - by their own desire - part of the strategic directorate called the White Council, as far as we know. I think they would not have known more about Gandalf than anyone else among the Free Peoples of noble rank.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
|
|
|
dreamflower
Lorien
Jul 22 2015, 12:23pm
Post #16 of 27
(2811 views)
Shortcut
|
Cirdan; Galadriel; Elrond; maybe Glorfindel; of course his fellow Isari, to begin with. I'm sure Sauron would have known.
I am also sure there were a few who had suspicions, such as Aragorn.
After his return as Gandalf the White, I am certain that even the hobbits would guess that he was much more than they'd ever thought, but it's likely that only Bilbo and Frodo might have an inkling about just what his true nature was.
Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.
|
|
|
HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Jul 31 2015, 12:19pm
Post #17 of 27
(2501 views)
Shortcut
|
|
What did they think of Radagast?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
He's rarely mentioned in LOTR and not at all in the Hobbit. However, he is around. Is he considered by Men among the "wise" as well?
Might makes Right!
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 31 2015, 12:25pm
Post #18 of 27
(2499 views)
Shortcut
|
He's rarely mentioned in LOTR and not at all in the Hobbit.
Well, that's incorrect. Radagast is first mentioned in The Hobbit, when Gandalf introduces himself to Beorn.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Jul 31 2015, 12:28pm
Post #19 of 27
(2499 views)
Shortcut
|
From the perspective of a human in Middle Earth, I think they'd draw a distinction between "Wizards" and "wizards."
Obviously, they'd realize that Wizards don't die and have some special or extraordinary powers (their immortality or perceived immortality would be noticed by all). The Wizards also were part of the strategic alliances in Middle Earth. They played major roles in what happened in ME, even if from behind the scenes. But even if people didn't know about their great power politics behind the scenes, they would know Gandalf was important because he traveled from realm to realm counseling rulers. Sauruman was important as the master of Orthanc.
It would be a bit harder to gauge Radagast's importance as he didn't deal with humans often. However, if people realized he was one of the Wizards, they'd think he was pretty special, too, even if lesser than his brethren.
Now, we most compare Wizards (Istari) from wizards who were mortals. An example of this would be the Mouth of Sauron. He could be considered a "wizard" but not a Wizard.
I recall Sauruman making this distinction when he says the Necromancer is probably no more than a human wizard. Of course he was lying, but he seemed to imply that there were powerful humans who can do wizadry. However, they would not be Wizards.
Given this distinction, to answer the question: I think the people of Middle Earth who were familiar with Gandalf and Sauruman (lesser extent Radagast) would know they probably were of a different order than the other beings of Middle Earth. I'm sure Aragorn would know their true origins. But most humans probably would look at the kaleidoscope of beings in ME and probably figure they fit in there somewhere (after all, we are talking about a "world" that has dragons and talking trees, so why not Wizards and wizards).
Might makes Right!
|
|
|
squire
Half-elven
Jul 31 2015, 1:22pm
Post #20 of 27
(2493 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Good point about the Mouth of Sauron, but...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
We are told that 'he learned great sorcery', which certainly supports the idea of a mortal man being some kind of wizard.
But wait... note that Tolkien uses "sorcery" in this case rather than "wizardry". The implication seems to be that the Mouth is a master of 'black magic' in opposition to the 'white magic' of the Istari, the 'Wizards' with a capital W. Other examples of mortals who command magical power on the order of the Elves and the Wizards are, perhaps, the wise men of Gondor in Faramir's retelling of his people's decline: "in secret chambers withered men compounded strong elixirs, or in high cold towers asked questions of the stars." But once again, this is a negative characterization, suggesting in context that these Men were going against nature and were not, in fact, truly wise. If not sorcerors, exactly, they don't seem to have been wizards either if, as I think, wizard is meant to connote wisdom. In his Letters, Tolkien concedes that Beorn is "a bit of a magician" in the course of emphasizing that he was a mortal Man. And when Frodo uses the Ring at Bree to disappear, we are told the local people regard him as a "traveling magician", suggesting that other such characters have come through Bree from time to time. But the word 'wizard' is never used except for the Istari.
It seems to me that, once Tolkien had landed on Wizard as his 'translation' of Istar (even though his original usage came from The Hobbit wherein Gandalf is introduced as a mortal man of magical power, the traditional definition of a wizard in folk-lore), he never uses the term for anyone else but the so-called Wizards. He says as much in his Letters, as well (see #131 and #144).
So I think you are certainly right in arguing there were mortals who had some powers of magic, but in stricter terms of what to actually call them within the story, there are, I think, no mortal 'small-w' wizards in the Middle-earth of LotR, by that name. There are, instead, sorcerors, magicians, conjurors, and wise men (Grima and Denethor are called such).
I don't remember where Saruman refers to Sauron as a 'human wizard'. It's odd that he would make that mistake. In the Appendices, before they knew that Sauron had returned, the Council is said to have suspected the Necromancer was one of the Nazgul, who they knew were not mortal.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
|
|
|
HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Jul 31 2015, 2:31pm
Post #21 of 27
(2487 views)
Shortcut
|
Yes, I would agree that wizard (small w) is more akin to sorcerer or magician in Tolkein's lore. I was trying to make a distinction between those mortal men and women who had magic and the Istari (Wizards).
You make a great distinction here, and it is true that Tolkien never refers to magicians or sorcerers as wizards or Wizards.
As to the reference Sauruman makes to the Necromancer: here, I meant that Sauruman was being deceitful. He knew that the Necromancer was at the least a Nazgul, or possibly Sauron. But he describes the Necromancer as a human sorcerer or something similar.
I can't recall exactly where the passage is, but he is trying to deceive the White Council by referring to Necromancer as possibly human. He doesn't believe this, but is being deceitful.
Might makes Right!
|
|
|
Magradhaid
The Shire
Aug 1 2015, 12:59am
Post #22 of 27
(2456 views)
Shortcut
|
|
"wizard" in the external chronology
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
As far as I can call, Saruman calling the Necromancer a human sorcerer is only in Jackson's The Hobbit: AUJ: "This 'Necromancer' is nothing more than a mortal man, a conjurer dabbling in black magic". Though the films greatly rearrange the chronology, in Tolkien's conception when the Wise realize there's something foul at Dol Guldur, they originally think it's a Nazgûl (T.A. 1100) but later fear it's Sauron (2060). A few years later (2063) Gandalf goes there and Sauron retreats; it's not until his second visit in 2850 (Sauron had returned in 2460) that Gandalf is able to confirm the dark power there being Sauron. The following year (2851), the White Council meets (with Gandalf vs. Saruman shenanigans), and in 2890 Bilbo is born. This (as found in Appendix B) however is different than the earlier overview Tolkien gave in his 1951 letter to Milton Waldman (#131), saying "It is only in the time between The Hobbit and its sequel that it is discovered that the Necromancer is Sauron Redivivus, growing swiftly to visible shape and power again. He escapes the vigilance and re-enters Mordor and the Dark Tower." An earlier draft has a dark power at Dol Guldur (1100), the Elves think it's a Nazgûl but Gandalf fears it's Sauron (2060), and then his inconclusive visit in 2063 and confirmation of Sauron's identity in 2850 are the same.
More can be said on the terminology "wizard" (chronologically), focusing on the Istari, the Witch-king, and the Necromancer. It is true that in his letter to Waldman, Tolkien writes that "Their name, as related to Wise, is an Englishing of their Elvish name, and is used throughout as utterly distinct from Sorcerer or Magician. It appears finally that they were as one might say the near equivalent in the mode of these tales of Angels, guardian Angels."
However, that was not always the case. In earlier writings, Tolkien used "wizard" to refer to mortals (including Gandalf in The Hobbit) before assigning "wizard" (though not necessarily the noun "wizardry") to the order of Wizards (called the Istari in later writings, now angelic and no longer human), saving "sorcerer" (etc.) for dark magicians. In some earlier writings (1920s-30s), Morgoth's necromancer servant Thû / Sauron was referred to as either a sorcerer or a wizard, though the "wizard" lines in the 1930s Annals and Quenta were changed to "sorcerer" for the early 50s ones. I assume the wizard > sorcerer for Sauron (and the Nazgûl-king) was due to Tolkien's new conception "Wizards = Angels" (c. early 40s? see HoME7 ch. 13). The Ringwraiths originally being "kings, warriors, and wizards of old" (Ancient History, late 1938) appears in later Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age as "sorcerers", and after Ancient History JRRT decides that the Rider's king is a wizard (Gandalf's Delay, Aug. 1939). Sometime in late 1940-41, "the Chief of the Nine was of old the greatest of all the wizards of Men". He appears as "Wizard-king", but in (the later) draft C of The Siege of Gondor (late 1946 or 1947) JRRT decided that the Wizard-king was originally a renegade of Gandalf's order "... [?from] Númenor".
JRRT had already thought up "Wizards = Angels" at that point, and Pippin has the line "Whence and what was Gandalf: when and in what far time and place [was he born >] did he come into the world and would he ever die?" in a Minas Tirith draft (late 1946?). So at this point the Wizard-king was probably an angelic "Wizard" as well, since Pippin's line argues (imho) against Gandalf being a mortal non-divine "angel" / messenger. What, though, of Númenor?
After draft C of The Siege of Gondor, manuscript D has the Nazgûl-lord (now "Sorcerer-king") being the King of Angmar long ago (and not a member of Gandalf's order, it seems). I'm not aware of Tolkien using "Wizard" for those other than Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast (and their order) after this point.
(Dating chapters was aided by Scull and Hammond's Chronology)
(This post was edited by Magradhaid on Aug 1 2015, 1:04am)
|
|
|
squire
Half-elven
Aug 1 2015, 1:31am
Post #23 of 27
(2452 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Excellent research and thank you!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
That was classic.
And as you say, it all leads to a dropping off of the term 'wizard' for any other magically-endowed being, after he realized he wanted to use the word exclusively for his order of Angel-like Istari. What I notice is his attention to detail: as he rewrote drafts over the years, he always seems to have caught stuff like this. A word change here, and word change there - no wonder he could claim, on completing Lord of the Rings, that "Hardly a word in its 600,000 or more has been unconsidered."
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
|
|
|
HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Aug 3 2015, 11:55am
Post #24 of 27
(2403 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Thanks for the clarification...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Over the years, it has become much easier to conflate the book with the movies, and in some cases, the movie stands out even more clearly. I'm wondering if the White Council did initially think of the Necromancer as a Nazgul, did they think the other 8 would be there as well? And if Nazgul were somewhere, Sauron would not be far behind.
But that is another topic :)
Might makes Right!
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Aug 3 2015, 4:04pm
Post #25 of 27
(2391 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Necromancer and Dol Guldur
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I'm wondering if the White Council did initially think of the Necromancer as a Nazgul, did they think the other 8 would be there as well? And if Nazgul were somewhere, Sauron would not be far behind.
I doubt that the White Council suspected that more than one (maybe two or three at most) of the Nazgul were at Dol Guldur prior to Gandalf's discovery that the Necromancer was actually Sauron. The Lord of the Nazgul ruled Angmar as the Witch-king until TA 1975; soon after Angmar's fall, he and other Ringwraiths conquered Minas Ithil, renaming it Minas Morgul. Minas Morgul remained the base of the Lord of the Nazgul for the remainder of the Third Age. I expect that Khamul, the Black Easterling, might have been the lead suspect for the identity of the Necromancer.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 3 2015, 4:05pm)
|
|
|
|
|
1
