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Wouldn't they know?

lionoferebor
Rohan

Jul 31 2015, 6:07pm

Post #1 of 9 (1184 views)
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Wouldn't they know? Can't Post

I read a post on Tumblr last night in reference to Balin's story about the Battle of Azanulbizar and how that particular scene segways into that segment.

In this scene Thorin scolds Fili and Kili for joking around about Orc raids. In response Balin tells Fili and Kili (or just Kili, depending how you look at it): Don't mind him...Thorin has more reason than most to hate orcs. Then he proceeds to tell the story of the Battle of Azanbulizar.

The Tumblr poster pointed out that as the scene stands it's as Balin if tells the story to Fili and Kili to give them a better understanding why their uncle is being more grumpy than normal. However, wouldn't Fili and Kili already know about the Battle of Azanulbizar? It's a rather significant moment in Dwarf history, especially for the House of Durin. Surely it would have come up in Thorin's stories or at least in their lessons throughout the years.

The Tumblr poster suggested that it would have made more sense, to them, if the scene had been written in such a way that Balin was telling the story to Bilbo who would not be familiar with Dwarf history and Thorin's background. I had never thought of it before, but I agree.

This brings me another moment, in BOFA when Kili, after seeing Bard shooting arrows at Smaug, says "He hit the dragon, I saw it, he hit his mark." To which Tauriel says "An arrow can not pierce it's hide. I'm afraid nothing will."

I have to scratch my head at this too, because wouldn't Kili know this? Wouldn't he know that only a Black Arrow could take Smaug down? After all, Thorin does tell Bard that all Dwarves know the tale of how Lord Girion tried to slay Smaug using the Black Arrows. If anything - again - wouldn't it have come up in Kili's lessons?

It could be said that maybe Kili could not see the arrow well enough to tell what kind it was. However, I read once that while a Dwarf's eye sight is not quite as good as an Elves it is still superior to that of Men and they see very well in the dark...and probably more so than an Elf since they spend the majority of their lives underground.

It could also be said that maybe he doesn't even know what a Black Arrow looks like to start with since he was kind of down and out when Bard revealed it to his children. Again, surely at some point over the years the physical traits of a black arrow would have been describe to him. Plus he's an archer so ,to me, it would seem natural that he would have taken an interest and may have sought out more information, including sketches of black arrows.

Also in re to Tauriel's statement: An arrow can not pierce it's hide. I'm afraid nothing will. That last part gives me the implication that Tauriel does not know of the Black Arrows. Otherwise why not say something like: only a Black Arrow can pierce it's hide? And it does make sense that she being the only Elf in the group would be the most likely not to know of the Black Arrows as they would have been a part the history of Dwarves and Men...not Elves.

All this said, to me it would have made more sense if Tauriel said she saw Bard "hit the dragon" (maybe not as enthusiastic as Kili, because I just can't see her saying it that way) to which Kili - or anyone of the Dwarves - would say "No, only a Black Arrow can pierce his hide."


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 31 2015, 7:08pm

Post #2 of 9 (1087 views)
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Not unless they know. [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't see any reason that they would have to know and both instances serve to illustrate their youth and naiveté in comparison to more experienced characters.


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Jul 31 2015, 7:17pm

Post #3 of 9 (1082 views)
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Just time for a brief answer [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Balin was telling the story to Bilbo: the Fili/Kili reprimand just made a nice segue for Balin. That's not to say that hearing the story from Balin's lips didn't make its mark on the boys and the rest of the company--the end of the scene plainly shows that they were all affected by it, although surely they'd all heard it by this time, and heck, Dwalin was there.


Kili didn't say he thought the arrow had pierced its hide, just that it had hit its mark. Hey, considering that mostly what everyone had done in Laketown was run around screaming, I'd get excited about someone just shooting at the dragon too! Tongue


It makes sense to me that Tauriel might not have heard about the Black Arrows. If they were considered gone by the Laketowners, why would the Elves, especially isolationist ones, talk about their existence?


That's my two cents--don't spend it all in one place. Angelic


“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 31 2015, 7:37pm

Post #4 of 9 (1065 views)
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Well, evidently they don't know.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...or maybe they know about Azanulbizar, but not about Thorin's role in it. Perhaps he doesn't talk about it much - he doesn't really seem the conversational type, and Tolkien's dwarves as a whole are rather taciturn. Do we know that Thorin tells his nephews stories? And since we know nothing at all about the upbringing of dwarves, I think it seems a bit of a stretch to talk about lessons - which implies some sort of formal structure.

Well, here's a thought. Oral storytelling in the past was very often a matter of repeating what the audience already knew. The same stories would recur at a particular season, or in response to something that happened, and the shared story created a bond between the generations who heard it and came to know it. Because it was familiar didn't mean they wouldn't listen again. So maybe this is how younger dwarves learn. Maybe Balin isn't telling Fili and Kili something they don't know but reminding them of a story they do know at a place and time which will help them understand more of its significance.

Another thought. In telling his story Balin is relating a very personal reaction. He's talking about his feelings, his emotional response to what he saw that day, and I can't see any reason at all why any of the others would know that, except perhaps Dwalin. So even if Fili and Kili know about the battle - and presumably they do know about the oakenshield as it became part of Thorin's name, the point of Balin's story is "Here is one I could follow. Here is one I could call King." It's about highlighting Thorin as the king in waiting - his right and his capabilities. Well, if you think about it, the scene in Bree tells us that Thorin immediately before the quest had not given up on his father still being alive, in which case Thrain would be the rightful king. Maybe Thorin has discouraged talk of his part in the battle or his right to lead for that reason. Maybe the moment Balin tells his story, and the others all stand to acknowledge Thorin, is the moment when Thorin really accepts that what he is doing in setting out on the Quest is claiming the kingship in his own right.

I'm afraid the Tumblr poster's objection is the sort of thing I don't have much patience with. It's always possible to find fault with any story if you want to, but ultimately that's destructive. Far more creative to try to work it out within the context of the story. But that's just my take on it.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 31 2015, 7:42pm

Post #5 of 9 (1053 views)
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My take on this... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that Balin was telling the story as much (or more) for Bilbo's information as for Fili and Kili. He is just such a good storyteller that the others were all impressed again with Thorin's accomplishments.


As for Smaug being struck by an arrow, I think that Kili is being overly optimistic here. He did see the arrow hit the dragon and he thinks, as unreasonable as it seems that maybe the arrow did damage despite the odds. Tauriel might have noticed that the windlance on the top of the Master's hall is destroyed and that there should be no way to effectively launch the Black Arrow or any other ballista bolt.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


CathrineB
Rohan


Jul 31 2015, 8:22pm

Post #6 of 9 (1018 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

I too got the impression he was indeed telling Bilbo the story. But Fili and Kili were reminded of why Thorin was how he is. At least it is the impression I got too because it would seem far too strange for neither of them not knowing of that growing up warriors and heirs afterall.

Tauriel in that scene though Laugh Everytime I see it I'm like "Dude. He's just saying he SAW it hit the dragon and you just go and say no" Wink


AshNazg
Gondor


Jul 31 2015, 8:32pm

Post #7 of 9 (1015 views)
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Reminds me of FotR... [In reply to] Can't Post

...When Gaffer's telling the story of Frodo's parents drowning.

"'Drownded?' said several voices, They had heard this and other darker rumours before, of course; but hobbits have a passion for family history, and they were ready to hear it again."

I think Fili and Kili did know, but Balin likes to tell the story and the dwarves like hearing it.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Aug 1 2015, 12:42am

Post #8 of 9 (897 views)
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Not much to add to this [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I completely lost my post, so let me try this again. There are two possibilities for Balin's story: 1. Fili & Kili hadn't heard the story before, or 2. They hadn't heard the story with as much detail as Balin was providing - probably no. 2. The battle was not considered a victory, so it's possible that the battle isn't talked about very much, and perhaps they didn't know about Azog. Notice the other Dwarves also acted like they hadn't heard this before; maybe Thorin is modest or (more likely) just doesn't want to talk about the day when his grandfather, father and brother were killed or went missing.

As for Kili & Tauriel, I think they could both see that Bard was firing normal arrows from a long bow, so why would they even think about Black arrows? Tauriel probably has heard of them, she is 600 years old, but probably doesn't realize there are any left. The Dwarves in the boat may or may not have seen Bard take it down, they were pretty pre-occupied with Kili, but even if they did see it they too would realize Bard didn't have it with him. I really don't see a problem with either one of Tumblr's issues.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


mirkwoodwanderer
Lorien

Aug 1 2015, 8:28pm

Post #9 of 9 (658 views)
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They had no idea [In reply to] Can't Post

It was not a happy story

 
 

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