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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 30 2015, 4:15pm
Post #1 of 67
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Is the word "American" problematic?
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Oh boy, here I go again with the controversial subjects. This bit of information is all over the news this morning: http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=6697
There's no doubt that people are using this to fan the flames in our polarized USA, but the subject matter that I want to discuss is not the political side, but the actual question about the word "American." Now, the reason I bring this up HERE is because I know that theonering.net is international, so I can get a better perspective here. I do live in Oklahoma in the USA, and I also refer to myself as an "American." Part of the reason is because the word "America" is actually in the name of my country, the United States of America. I am aware that there are other countries on the American continents, but the citizens of those other countries tend to refer to themselves as Canadian, Mexican, Brazilian, etc. And that makes perfect sense to me, but those of us living in the USA don't refer to ourselves as "Statesians," and I don't think anyone else does, either.
However, about 30 years ago I was in the US Air Force, and stationed in England. While there I often said I was from "the States," because yes, it did occur to me that calling myself an American could be a little confusing, but then I quit doing that when I came back home. I haven't been there in 30 years, but my daughter is getting ready to do a semester abroad, and may go to Hertfordshire in England. She mentioned the liason referred to "the Americas," which to me is interesting but overly broad. Maybe as liason that's just part of her job. I also think about Europe, and how people who live there can refer to themselves as both European and as citizens of their coutries, e.g., French, English/British, Norwegian, etc. And of course, anyone living anywhere in the Americas could call themselves "American" if they want, but I don't believe most would do so (admittedly, I could be wrong about that). So, my ultimate question is, is the term "American" problematic for the rest of the world? And if so, what would be a better term to use? I must say right now, I don't think "Statesian" is going to cut it.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Jul 30 2015, 4:26pm
Post #2 of 67
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As a staunch liberal, I really think political correctness can go too far...
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...and it very often does.
If there's something "problematic" about proclaiming myself an "American", then I guess I'll be problematic. 
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Jul 30 2015, 5:22pm
Post #3 of 67
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It's the accepted term world-wide for residents of the USA.
Just because some nitwit somewhere wrote a pamphlet doesn't mean the rest of us have to pay any attention to it.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 30 2015, 5:37pm
Post #4 of 67
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I can't speak for the rest of the world...
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...but I think "American" is generally understood to mean US residents who claim it as home. The derivation is not from the names of the continents, but from the name of the country: "United States of America".
A lot of the stuff on that site is pretentious twaddle, but there is one serious issue that needs fixing: a gender-neutral third-person singular that's a person, not "it". Sentences like: "everyone should wash his or her hands before eating" are tortuous, and "...wash their hands..." (which is the most common circumlocution) is simply incorrect.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jul 30 2015, 5:39pm
Post #5 of 67
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Setting aside the university p.c. idiocy
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The term "American" is almost exclusively is used to refer to citizens of the USA.
I have never heard a Canadian call herself an American nor a Mexican or Brazilian.
"North American" can refer to Canadians, "Americans" or Mexicans.
i.e. Central Americans, South Americans.
Citizens of the "Americas"...plural includes all.
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smtfhw
Lorien
Jul 30 2015, 5:49pm
Post #6 of 67
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Using the third person (as in should wash their hands) is generally accepted practice these days and many, many style guides will point this out. It can be used in the singular not the plural. To quote from the following link:
Some people object to the use of plural pronouns in this type of situation on the grounds that it’s ungrammatical. In fact, the use of plural pronouns to refer back to a singular subject isn’t new: it represents a revival of a practice dating from the 16th century. It’s increasingly common in current English and is now widely accepted both in speech and in writing.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/...e-or-she-versus-they
(This post was edited by smtfhw on Jul 30 2015, 5:52pm)
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smtfhw
Lorien
Jul 30 2015, 5:54pm
Post #7 of 67
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I can see nothing problematic in people from the USA referring to themsleves as - or being referred to as - Americans. And I'm speaking as a European, a Brit and and Angko-German...
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jul 30 2015, 6:21pm
Post #8 of 67
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Not according to dear old Dad.
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The name of American, which belongs to you in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of patriotism more than any appellation derived from local discriminations.
-George Washington's Farewell Address, 1796.
He's the father of the country so he's got the right to name it.
******************************************
Mathom House Bestsellers:
All I Really Need to Know I Learned in the Pits of Orthanc
Zen and the Art of Cockle Boat Maintenance
Fifty Shades of Gandalf the Grey
Coney Stew for the Soul
Rhosgobel Rabbits - Unsafe At Any Speed
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 30 2015, 6:25pm
Post #9 of 67
(1820 views)
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I high-five you, Elfstone. Well said. //
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I really think political correctness can go too far......and it very often does. If there's something "problematic" about proclaiming myself an "American", then I guess I'll be problematic.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 30 2015, 7:33pm
Post #10 of 67
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From a British (English) point of view, if someone tells me they're American I assume they're from the USA - that's what it means to me. Americans are from the USA, Canadians are from Canada and someone from lower down is South American if they're not Peruvian, Brazilian, Argentinian or whatever.
I don't think we do use the word 'America' here much to refer to the continent of - if I'm talking land masses I would say 'North America' - 'South America'.
I don't have a word for you lot other than 'American': saying 'from the USA' all the time seems a bit long-winded.
I think political correctness in language has become very silly. Language is meant to communicate - I've just been reading that article and - honestly? - let's replace all the words people understand for much loonger phrases that will leave them baffled. Brilliant idea!
*ducks hurriedly back into teapot and closes the lid.*
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Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien
Jul 30 2015, 7:36pm
Post #11 of 67
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No I don't think it would be...
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Because I think Canadians, Mexicans, and Americans are called North Americans when people are talking about the continent, and people from South America are South Americans. But I don't know, I\m guessing a lot of people might shorten it down to Americans.
That also reminds me of something, I have a friend from Scotland who said that some people get annoyed when people say they are Scottish Americans, even though they were born in America. I kind of get it, but it's hard not to say when race is more important in America than any other place because there are so many different people. But I feel like they're right in a way, because the people aren't from Scotland and America, they're from America, but with Scottish Ancestry. I guess it would be easier to say Americans, because there probably isn't anyone who doesn't have an ancestor who is from a different country than the rest of the family. That would mean Queen Elizabeth would be a Norse Norman French English Scottish Brit!
"Obviously the idea of being human is a very human idea."
-Dominic Monaghan
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Donry
Tol Eressea
Jul 30 2015, 9:30pm
Post #12 of 67
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I have rarely ever heard a fellow Canuck wish to be called an American, as in a North American. As far as I can recall, the only time this has come up in any situation was to start an argument.
Where I have noticed an issue, is with the First Nations folks in South America, Central America and North America. Quite often 'Native American' is associated with the United States of America. However, the term really applies to all three geographic regions. The old borders of Native Americans do not necessarily fall within the borders of the current nations. I have witnessed first hand a Native American, from Canada, say he was a Native American only to have someone tell him we where discussing a 'Canadian' issue. The non-native person then argued that the First Nations person should have called himself a Native Canadian.....even though the original boundaries for this particular tribe was not limited to the country of Canada.
Anyway...more of a discussion than anything else.
What's the matter, James? No glib remark? No pithy comeback?"
Twitter - @DonryFetor
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NottaSackville
Valinor
Jul 30 2015, 9:31pm
Post #13 of 67
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No. This is a continuation of a VERY disturbing trend at American colleges
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Students today feel the need to be protected from anything, including words, that may cause them any form of discomfort.
What they will find to their detriment is that the world will not hold back from causing them discomfort and that they would have been far better off learning coping mechanisms for dealing with that discomfort than trying to grow up in a world denying that such discomfort exists.
In the real world, there are winners and losers, mistakes are made, rude and nasty people exist and will run you over on their way to their own goals, and you will be judged on your talents, qualities and knowledge (among many other things you will be judged rightly or wrongly on). For the most part, the world will not stop to care if you're upset about what happened to you, it will simply expect you to compete or be left behind.
Notta
 Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville
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Ettelewen
Rohan
Jul 30 2015, 9:46pm
Post #14 of 67
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Exactly. And what disturbs me the most is the rush to be outraged by perceived injustice. It seems that some feel if we are not all equally "outraged" by this or that, well then we are part of the problem.
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Jul 30 2015, 9:50pm
Post #15 of 67
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I'm outraged by that statement!
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"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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Annael
Immortal
Jul 31 2015, 12:09am
Post #17 of 67
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Another good liberal here, who also shakes her head at the current trend of oversensitivity. As well as the virtual witch-hunts that immediately ensue when one person somehow says THE WRONG THING. Sheesh. I quit following one site I enjoyed, The Mary Sue, just because they encouraged such a witch-hunt on some poor professor who dared to suggest that superheroine costumes in the comics were too sexy. Don't ask me why this rang the chimes of outrage, I have no idea.
So, is the old custom of people outside the USA referring to USA-ians as "Yankees" gone entirely?
I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.
-- Gaston Bachelard
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NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 31 2015, 12:27am
Post #18 of 67
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So, is the old custom of people outside the USA referring to USA-ians as "Yankees" gone entirely?
When I was stationed in England I was often referred to as a "Yank," and my standard response was "I'm not a Yank, I'm from Oklahoma." In the USA "Yanks" are people living in the New England states. You'd NEVER call a Southerner a "Yank."
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Annael
Immortal
Jul 31 2015, 12:38am
Post #19 of 67
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My parents were actual Yankees from New England. But it seemed pretty prevalent around WWII at least for Europeans to call Americans Yankees. Or at least Brits.
I've told this joke before, but:
Foreigners think all Americans are Yankees.
Southern Americans think all Northerners are Yankees.
Northerners think Yankees live in New England.
New Englanders think Yankees are only those from Vermont.
And folks in Vermont think a Yankee is someone who eats apple pie for breakfast.
I was born in the Northwest myself and we think the whole Southerner-Northerner thing is silly.
I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.
-- Gaston Bachelard
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
(This post was edited by Annael on Jul 31 2015, 12:39am)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 31 2015, 12:59am
Post #20 of 67
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Bloom County ROCKS. So much wisdom in there, as well as fun.
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Another good liberal here, who also shakes her head at the current trend of oversensitivity. As well as the virtual witch-hunts that immediately ensue when one person somehow says THE WRONG THING. Sheesh. I quit following one site I enjoyed, The Mary Sue, just because they encouraged such a witch-hunt on some poor professor who dared to suggest that superheroine costumes in the comics were too sexy. Don't ask me why this rang the chimes of outrage, I have no idea.
So, is the old custom of people outside the USA referring to USA-ians as "Yankees" gone entirely?
I can empathize entirely Annael. I recently had to leave a fruit-growing site I really loved because a thread about plum grafting got racial, then rather angry, then progressed to cop-hating (don't ask!) at which point, bye, I'm out. I followed it helplessly and guiltily - since I am the one that resurrected the thread - thinking, Wait....didn't I ask about *plum grafting*? WTH?  I'm still reeling a bit from it, and sad to lose the conversations about fruit and gardening.
My only answer was, I guess if you have one filter, it applies to everything. And that we have a current tendency to neatly box everything and everyone: box it, label it, classify it. No shades, no nuances, LABEL: and say the wrong thing, and you get a BAD label. And if you disagree with my -ism, that makes you an -ist of some sort (pick your flavor.) I don't hugely mind people disagreeing with me, and I treasure free speech, because I can choose to engage or not - but what is worrisome is that I think all this slotting is a bit dehumanizing. It seems to take away from individual shades, the collection of life experiences and beliefs that makes a person who they are. I'm not a sociologist by any means, but is it a sign of a digital age - the clicky neatness of it all, like a dropdown menu? I don't know.
Its hard to navigate things these days, at least for me. I'm not what I would call liberal: I've always been moderate/a bit left of moderate (certainly socially more left) my whole life. But I feel like Lightoller and the Titanic: I didn't leave Moderate, it left me. Because though I tended to lean a bit left, the Left of today seems to have gone too far away from me, yet today's Right is NOT doing it for me either. Moderate seems to have...*poof*, disappeared, rather like that ship. Leaves me a bit lost, politically.
BTW that joke is cute.  Say nothing of what Boston Red Socks fans think of Yankees...its a family site. 
(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 31 2015, 1:01am)
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Jul 31 2015, 1:29am
Post #21 of 67
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You said it so well! 
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Annael
Immortal
Jul 31 2015, 1:48am
Post #22 of 67
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ironic that in this day of people trying to embrace diversity, we've become so intolerant of different opinions!
My parents are from the Boston area so I know all about Red Sox fans
I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.
-- Gaston Bachelard
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 31 2015, 1:55am
Post #23 of 67
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I used to frequent a fairly political site (Newsvine), but abandoned it a few years ago. I got tired of all the polarized bickering, no one was really interested in discussing the issues, they just wanted to score political points. Everything you said I experienced in droves. I consider myself a red-state conservative, but I'm so sick of the political climate in the USA. Boy, I didn't want to get into politics here, but maybe it can't be avoided. I appreciate the self-professed liberals expressing their honest opinion - maybe there are some things we can agree on after all!
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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zarabia
Tol Eressea
Jul 31 2015, 2:05am
Post #24 of 67
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The impulse to be sensitive...
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to the feelings of minorities and the disenfranchised--what I consider to be the purpose of political correctness--is a good and noble one, imho. Words have power and language can help shape perception so I don't think it's wrong to ask people to at least consider the effects of their words on others. BUT YES, IT IS OFTEN TAKEN TO LUDICROUS EXTREMES. (I put this in caps so readers see there is a "but" coming. ) I know after my comments on the confederate flag I might be seen as one of the ludicrous. I apologize for my tone in that post. I felt overwhelmed by all those around me at the time who were of the opposite view and let it get the better of me here.
Anyway, for every out of control PC nut, there's someone who's never tried to see the other side of things who cries censorship any time they are challenged. For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction.
You realize that life goes fast
It's hard to make the good things last
You realize the sun doesn't go down
It's just an illusion caused by the world spinning 'round
~Do You Realize?, The Flaming Lips
(This post was edited by zarabia on Jul 31 2015, 2:18am)
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Jul 31 2015, 2:09am
Post #25 of 67
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If all else fails, there's that one BIG thing we agree on...
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...our love of Tolkien.
I always tend to think that political arguments usually start off so hostile because we (people, that is) assume there's no common frame of reference between our different political ideologies. But such discussions on this board always (well, almost always ) remain civil because we all know that we share a common deep passion for the words of our dear old Professor.
Which is not to say that I don't want to become a fire breathing Balrog when some of you on the Right side of the spectrum say certain things that drive me up a wall , but it allows us to focus on the things that bind us, rather than separate.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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