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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
The Quest of the Ring as a journey back though time

jochenkeen
The Shire

Jul 30 2015, 1:34am

Post #1 of 9 (2059 views)
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The Quest of the Ring as a journey back though time Can't Post

I'm new to the forum. For the past few weeks, I've been writing a chapter-by-chapter commentary on The Fellowship of the Rings -- and I figured I would try to reach out to a larger community to see if I can get any more discussion/comments going.

My latest commentary is on Chapter 3 of The Fellowship of the Ring "Three is Company". My commentary is mainly a meditation on the way that Tolkien plays with our expectations about time. I think it's possible to read Frodo's quest as a journey through time as well as a physical trip. The clues? A waste-paper basket, an umbrella and a bottle of wine laid down by Bungo Baggins.



Please let me know what you think!


Matthew


Entwife Wandlimb
Lorien


Aug 1 2015, 1:02am

Post #2 of 9 (1974 views)
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humans tied to epochs [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi jochenkeen! I very much enjoyed reading your observations on The Fellowship of the Ring. Do you think he would have made Hobbiton the same way had he not written The Hobbit first? I feel like The Hobbit was supposed to be in the same flavor as Alice in Wonderland, but then he was forced to impose the Victorian Hobbits on his vision for his Silmilarion-based world.

Do you mind jumping around a bit? What do you think of the elves? Gondor seems like 8th century Anglo-Saxons and the Gondorians maybe more like Renaissance Florence. What about the elves? I think only the humans and hobbits are fixed in epoch while the elves and dwarves are more magical?

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Wanda


Brethil
Half-elven


Aug 1 2015, 1:58am

Post #3 of 9 (1969 views)
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Welcome to the RR, Jochenkeen! [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting way to look at the anachronism uses and the locations also subtexting time periods.


We just finished the FOTR as a book discussion, and will be moving into TTT in September. Feel free to join in!









noWizardme
Half-elven


Aug 2 2015, 1:33pm

Post #4 of 9 (1899 views)
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I'll second that welcome, and invitation to theTwo Towers read-through! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~

Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064


jochenkeen
The Shire

Aug 2 2015, 10:35pm

Post #5 of 9 (1887 views)
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Fooling expectations [In reply to] Can't Post

Those are great questions Wanda!
I think you're question about the priority of The Hobbit is fascinating. I suspect you may be on to something: that the Alice in Wonderland feel to The Hobbit may have pulled the LotR in strange directions. I'm going to have to mull that one over.
For my own part, I really enjoy the fact that Middle-earth seems to bring together elements from various earthly time-periods -- for me, it adds to the richness. (And speaking of which, I think you've nailed it when you liken the flavour of Gondor to Renaissance Florence). I think a lot of people approach Middle-earth expecting to see a tightly unified setting (I think the movies do this) -- whereas in fact JRRT's writings are more playful and bizarre.


sevilodorf
Tol Eressea


Aug 5 2015, 5:50pm

Post #6 of 9 (1841 views)
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Alice in Wonderland or maybe Narnia?? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can see the influence of Alice.... but I've also thought that The Hobbit was influenced by CS Lewis' Narnia.

The avuncular narrator and the child's lens for the tales.

Then Middle Earth grew up but Tolkien was left to, as you said, "impose Victorian hobbits".

Is it also a factor of our familiarity with created universes and insisting that everything be aligned to fit the 'verse? Tolkien, Baum and Burroughs created other worlds that had a lot more bleedover from their reality than we expect to find in new 'verses. Carroll, Baum, Burroughs and Lewis are all basically people of our world fall into another world. Tolkien is the one who created a totally new land and told the tale of its inhabitants.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)




Entwife Wandlimb
Lorien


Aug 6 2015, 6:30pm

Post #7 of 9 (1770 views)
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Would he copy something he disliked? [In reply to] Can't Post

He wrote in Letters 352:
"It is sad that 'Narnia' and all that part of C.S.L.'s work should remain outside the range of my sympathy, as much of my work was outside his"

But, like the Chronicles of Narnia, The Hobbit was written for children (Tolkein's own, in his case), by men of the same generation, so I think they have that same "voice" -- "avuncular," as you say. So, they may have both been influenced by J. M. Barrie, E. H. Shepard, George MacDonald, as well as Lewis Carroll.

I think your distinction between stories where people go to another world and Tolkien's new world is significant. Do you think Tolkien allowed for some of the bleedover by having this be a copy/retelling of an old book (The Red Book)?

Wanda


sevilodorf
Tol Eressea


Aug 6 2015, 7:17pm

Post #8 of 9 (1768 views)
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retelling [In reply to] Can't Post

Burroughs used the retelling of a tale format for John Carter of Mars.
Star Wars -- A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away

Establishing it as a "history" of our world possibly "legitimized" the bleedover.

George MacDonald's goblins are very similar to the goblins of The Hobbit

a note about the Red Book ---.Tolkien's inspiration for this repository of lore was the real Red Book of Hergest, the early 15th century compilation of Welsh history and poetry that contains the manuscript of the Mabinogion. Bound (and rebound) in red leather, in the Bodleian Library, Oxford, the manuscript was well known to Tolkien.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)




(This post was edited by sevilodorf on Aug 6 2015, 7:21pm)


jochenkeen
The Shire

Aug 13 2015, 12:32pm

Post #9 of 9 (1667 views)
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The Origins of the Red Book [In reply to] Can't Post

I never thought about the Red Book of Hergest! What a great point.


Matthew Sullivan
Oldenhammer in Toronto

 
 

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