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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
A flow chart/list of all the story/character changes in the Hobbit films?

Goldeneye
Lorien


Jul 28 2015, 3:45pm

Post #1 of 21 (2552 views)
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A flow chart/list of all the story/character changes in the Hobbit films? Can't Post

I'd love to see a flow chart of how the original "two film" Hobbit story & characters played out, compared to what was actually released. I really think they changed a LOT more than people suspect. For example, how did the character of Beorn initially play out? Was he cut to make time for Legolas?

The orc villains also hint at a large amount of restructuring. From what I understand, we initially had real actors in prosthetics...let us call them the Old versions. So there was Old Bolg, who was the primary orc villain. Then we also had Old Azog, who was the torturer in Dol Guldur, correct? Then for some reason Old Bolg became CGI Azog, Old Azog became Yazneg, and a new CGI Bolg was crafted out of thin air so Legolas could fight someone. AND, the actor who played Old Bolg was reduced to a cameo in BOFA as a nameless orc in Dol Guldur.

Has anyone tried compiling a list of all the changes that were made?


Thrain II
Lorien


Jul 28 2015, 3:55pm

Post #2 of 21 (2525 views)
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We will never know all of it... [In reply to] Can't Post

but from what we can gather, it looks like original 2 movies version was much more interesting and closer to the book. As for Azog/Bolg/Yazneg mess, here are two good articles where you can read about it: http://www.thelandofshadow.com/...-of-smaug-part-five/ and https://atolkienistperspective.wordpress.com/...gled-design-history/


Shagrat
Gondor

Jul 28 2015, 4:35pm

Post #3 of 21 (2495 views)
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Azog/Bolg [In reply to] Can't Post

I think - think - the plan was something like this. Others will disagree I'm sure.

1) At first Conan Stevens was cast as Azog. There was no mention of Bolg for a long time. This leads to me to think that the plan was always for 'Azog' to be the primary antagonist. Initially I don't think they were going to have a Bolg at all - just subordinates.

2) Conan doesn't work, so they try John Rawls as 'Old-man' Azog. But this doesn't work either. It's late, they're struggling for time and the right fit. So they go the CGI route with Manu Bennett. Stuck with the already filmed Dol Guldur bits with Stevens' Azog, they decide to change this character to Bolg, implementing him by accident rather than design. He will now be the Dol Guldur torturer and spawn of Azog. He will be seen to have tortured Beorn at some point (this would make sense of Beorn's reference to being persecuted by 'Azog' in DoS, since they would have filmed this with Conan Stevens). People may find this surprising, but on the basis of this I really do think the original plan was for Beorn to kill Azog. I do not think that any kind of dynamic between Beorn and Bolg initially existed; UNTIL Bolg became the torturer of Dol Guldur.

3) It would appear that the original plan was for Yazneg to lead the orc pack in AUJ, conferring to an unseen master (either in person or through orders). We would only see Azog emerge before Thorin in the finale, which makes perfect sense, so that we, like Thorin, are surprised at his appearance. Then there would have been a flashback to Azanulbizar at Beorn's house to make sense of this. Remember, this is when there was two films, so we wouldn't have to wait long to see it. Telling this to Beorn would also allow him to talk of his own experience of torture at DG, and would explain why he decides to help Thorin and his company, having a common enemy and all.

4) So now we have 3 films, and a distinct Azog and Bolg. If, as I speculate, Beorn was supposed to kill Azog, then what happens now? Thorin gets to kill Azog and Beorn has to make do with Bolg? It makes sense. After all, they filmed stuff with Beorn being tortured by 'Bolg' (Conan Stevens' Azog), book readers are content. Could Dain get a slice of the action now with Azog free? Very possibly. That really is crazy speculation though.

5) This is where it gets interesting. First Azog obviously was at Dol Guldur....then he wasn't (early DoS trailers show he was supposed to pursue the company further)....and then he was back at Dol Guldur again. How to make sense of this? This hypothesis is very messy, so apologies in advance. I'm speculating about three different stages of the film here (two-films, switch to three films prior to second block filming, and then after the third block of filming).

In the two-film plan, I believe that Azog was supposed to go to Dol Guldur after the company arrived at Beorn's, but probably through choice (needing to reinforce his ranks) rather than being recalled by 'Bolg'. In his place, he would leave someone like Yazneg or Fimbul to continue the pursuit, though all these would be killed during the barrel race. Once at DG, I suspect Azog was to stay there until Gandalf came, at which point he would lead his army to Erebor. This is largely what we see in the final film, but once Azog became CGI, distinct from the character Conan Stevens played at Dol Guldur who would now become 'Bolg', they decided to change it. The switch to three films obviously also factored heavily into this decision. As the trailers show, Azog would lead the pursuit through Mirkwood in person, participating in the barrel escape sequence. Perhaps they felt it best that the primary antagonist remain prominent in his pursuit of the company. What I can't figure out is how this pursuit would have played out with Azog involved. Because, with the switch to three films, we now have the fight at Laketown coming into the fold. Would CGI Azog have been the one fighting Legolas at Laketown? I can't see it, doesn't really serve a purpose. I suggest that Azog left after the escape, sending his company (under Fimbul) to Laketown to pursue the Dwarves. Where would he go? Back to Dol Guldur to hook up with Bolg? Not in my view, there would be no point. I'm actually wondering if Bennett's Azog would now decide to go to Gundabad and bring another army, with Bolg eventually leading the Dol Guldur army. I'm not convinced that Gundabad was ever really intended to be shown in the two-film plan.

But then something happened - not content with having the Elves go to Laketown, it was decided - by someone, God knows who, surely the studios - after AUJ's release but before the next block of filming - that poor Legolas should be more involved and would thus require a major antagonist to fight at the end of this film and in film three. Why? You tell me. Fimbul won't cut the mustard, and we can't have Azog fighting him. It's going to have to be a newly-created CGI Bolg, a badass and huge bruiser-type, and unquestionably worthy adversary. As such, it is has to be him who leads the pursuing Orc pack, and we're now back to square one as Azog must now remain in Dol Guldur once more. What does this mean for Conan Stevens' character? Well he's removed pretty much entirely, reduced to a tormentor of Gandalf in film 3 (obviously intended to be Azog - clearly, he would not have died by Galadriel's hand when this was conceived). And this of course leaves Beorn without an adversary, having been robbed of Azog and now Bolg. And essentially, in real limbo, as his role becomes pretty much pointless.

I think I've covered everything. Remember much of this is just my crazy theory. I'd be interested to see other people's thoughts.


(This post was edited by Shagrat on Jul 28 2015, 4:46pm)


Goldeneye
Lorien


Jul 28 2015, 5:22pm

Post #4 of 21 (2455 views)
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cool [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for links, they go into an incredible amount of detail on the Orc business! Still no less confusing than before however, lol.


Smaug the iron
Gondor

Jul 28 2015, 5:40pm

Post #5 of 21 (2429 views)
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Hoperfully they talk about it in the appendices. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Thrain II
Lorien


Jul 28 2015, 5:46pm

Post #6 of 21 (2424 views)
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No problem! [In reply to] Can't Post

I am also very intrigued by what was the original plan for the Hobbit. Even more so after I saw the original Azog/Bolg in BOFA and liked his design more than the official Bolg that we got. Unsure
Too bad it's still all confusing though. Laugh

I REALLY hope EE commentaries or behind the scenes will shed some light on this matter, since we didn't get any for Dol Guldur yet.
And since we see the old "torturer" in the movie I am hopeful someone will say something more about him. Crazy


Legomir
Rivendell

Jul 28 2015, 9:50pm

Post #7 of 21 (2312 views)
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I think much of what you said was right... [In reply to] Can't Post

But I think some of the Azog/Bolg changes after AUJ might be different. This is mostly just an educated guess, but I think that Azog was originally going to continue chasing them with the Orcs all the way to the end of the barrels (as seen in the trailer)... when the barrels scene was the climax of Film One. Maybe those shots of him from the first trailer were done before AUJ came out and before the story changed, I don't know. Then at the beginning of Film Two, we would have Azog continuing to chase the Company toward the Long Lake, only to then be recalled to Dol Guldur by some Orc (probably not Bolg) there at the beginning of Film Two before the Company gets to Lake-Town. Fimbul would lead the Orcs into Lake-Town and be killed by Tauriel and Legolas. We already know that, because Legolas fighting there was part of the original shoot (His first day, I think).

I think this mainly because I also believe that a lot of the Dol Guldur subplot changed after the switch to three films. Again, educated guess, but I think by the end of Film One, Gandalf would have gotten to Dol Guldur, met Thrain, fought Old Bolg, and then been captured by Sauron.

At the start of Film Two, he would have been in captivity in Dol Guldur until about an hour in, around Smaug's death. This means that it's possible there are many scenes of Gandalf in captivity that we'll never see because of the narrative restructuring. This gives time for Azog to be brought back to Dol Guldur, possibly interact with Old Bolg. There'd be time for Beorn to be captured or tortured, and then rescued by Radagast during the battle. And there would be time for Azog to be given command of the army and leave to start marching before Gandalf is rescued by Galadriel.

I also don't think Old Bolg would have been killed by Galadriel during the escape like "the Keeper of the Dungeons" is in the final version of BOTFA. He could have escaped and gone to Azog and been sent to Gundabad to gather the other army just like in the final version. However, I don't think Legolas and Tauriel went there until the pick-ups. But that doesn't mean that Bolg bringing another army was never in.

Thus, most of the final battle would have been similar, but instead of Legolas battling Bolg after the death of Kili and the attack on Tauriel, Beorn could have killed him when the Eagles arrived.

That means, if my guess is more-or-less correct, and there's a good chance it isn't, the only question I'd have is what Legolas was originally going to do during "Film Two." We know him interacting with Bard was part of the original shoot because photos were released before the 2013 pickups. But the scenes of him talking about Bolg with Tauriel, Tauriel being banished, them going to Gundabad, pretty much everything he does in the climax... I don't think so. We know from the Video Blog that Legolas and Tauriel arriving and telling Gandalf and Bilbo about the Fifth Army was a pickup... I don't know. Questions that need answering...

I suppose that might have gone off-topic and is a bit of a rambling rant, but I also would REALLY like to know what the exact details about the Two-Film Version too.


DainPig
Gondor


Jul 29 2015, 12:46am

Post #8 of 21 (2266 views)
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Beorn's prologue [In reply to] Can't Post

I was thinking here: we actually will have a prologue-flashback with Beorn being tortured? It is a great idea.... Shocked

How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???

Hey guys, my blog is: dainpigblog.blogspot.com


Goldeneye
Lorien


Jul 29 2015, 12:49am

Post #9 of 21 (2263 views)
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Wow [In reply to] Can't Post

My head is spinning trying to make sense of it all. And this is just for a small portion of the film we're talking about. No wonder PJ's health failed by the end of production!


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Jul 29 2015, 1:11am

Post #10 of 21 (2256 views)
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Probably not [In reply to] Can't Post

Beorn's storyline, as much as I want it restored, isn't really significant enough to the main plot to be used as a prologue.


Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien


Jul 29 2015, 2:10am

Post #11 of 21 (2240 views)
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Ooh thanks for that! I didn't know most of that. [In reply to] Can't Post

When it was two-parted from what I know An Unexpected Journey would have the following changes:

-Includes the High Fells and parts with Beorn in Dol Guldur
-Includes everything, except Azog's extra scenes (with him being Bolg and appearing at Out of the Frying Pan)
-Barrel Scene is Climax, with Bard pointing his arrow as the ending
-Tauriel and Legolas' parts were also mostly shot during pick ups, but were intended to be in the original film
-Legolas and Bolg were shot during pick ups, the only orc that would be in the movie would be Old Bolg (replacing Azog)

"Obviously the idea of being human is a very human idea."
-Dominic Monaghan


Shagrat
Gondor

Jul 29 2015, 8:24am

Post #12 of 21 (2174 views)
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Good points [In reply to] Can't Post

You make a lot of good points here. There is one thing I would say regarding Azog in the two-film structure. Let's say that it was originally meant to end with Gandalf encountering Thrain and then being imprisoned by Sauron, as you conjecture (it seems a sound theory). Given that Conan Stevens' Azog was filmed as part of this sequence, we know that originally Azog was meant to be there, which would also mean that he was never meant to be part of the barrel escape. Hence why I figured he must have left earlier, when the company arrived at Beorn's house.

Of course, this view would change if we knew that Gandalf finding Thrain and being captured was meant to happen early in film two. But given that the Gandalf and Thrain bits were in the very first trailer, made, as far as we can tell, when it was only planned to be two films, I'd say you were right about this being meant to be in the first film.


Shagrat
Gondor

Jul 29 2015, 10:02am

Post #13 of 21 (2153 views)
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Of Legolas and Tauriel [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm thinking that, in the two-film structure, they were supposed to turn up after Smaug's attack. It is then when Tauriel would heal a dying girl - probably Bard's youngest daughter - per that Empire report. Now I know that was apparently during the 2013 pick-ups, but I don't think they would have Tauriel perform two major nursing acts, that's just silly. Obviously when they went with the Kili healing thing they decided to jettison the other (unless the EE proves me wrong about this, and more Tauriel is always a bad thing so I hope not).


Smaug the iron
Gondor

Jul 29 2015, 10:11am

Post #14 of 21 (2149 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

Legolas and Tauriel was in Lake town in the two film structure.
Tauriel healing kili was the first thing Evangeline lilly filmed.
It was only Legolas vs Bolg that was pick ups.


Shagrat
Gondor

Jul 29 2015, 11:42am

Post #15 of 21 (2127 views)
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What was Legolas to do then? [In reply to] Can't Post

Did she go alone, and he only turn up afterwards? I suppose this is possible.

This suggests then that they had an idea of Tauriel going around healing all and sundry, which is frankly absurd. Good job they nixed that.


Smaug the iron
Gondor

Jul 29 2015, 11:47am

Post #16 of 21 (2126 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

Legolas was in Lake town too. The fight in bards house was in the two film structure it is only when he is fighting bolg that is in the three film structure.


Shagrat
Gondor

Jul 29 2015, 12:04pm

Post #17 of 21 (2109 views)
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Right [In reply to] Can't Post

So Fimbul was to lead the Orcs into Laketown, that figures. In that case, I wonder what would have made Legolas depart before Smaug came?


Arannir
Valinor


Jul 29 2015, 12:06pm

Post #18 of 21 (2105 views)
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I assume... [In reply to] Can't Post

... we will be left with the explanation "too much would have been left untold" if they had stuck with the two movie version and can only speculate how the two movie version would have looked like.


I know some people think it is destructive negativism to claim that the two movie version might have been better... but given what we know about the original plan and hints (especially regarding Beorn, Azog and Bolg), I am pretty sure the two movie plan had far more focus and structure than the focus-mess DoS and BotFA ended up to be.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Thrain II
Lorien


Jul 29 2015, 12:19pm

Post #19 of 21 (2092 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

you are probably right, but I still hope we will find out more in extras. Unsure


Smaug the iron
Gondor

Jul 29 2015, 12:21pm

Post #20 of 21 (2091 views)
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That is a question I don't have a answer to. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So Fimbul was to lead the Orcs into Laketown, that figures. In that case, I wonder what would have made Legolas depart before Smaug came?



Maybe it is like in the film that Legolas is hunting down the remaining Orcs out of Lake town but there is no Bolg fight.


Legomir
Rivendell

Jul 29 2015, 4:17pm

Post #21 of 21 (2055 views)
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Conan Stevens' Azog [In reply to] Can't Post

Do we know Conan Stevens filmed footage as Azog? Or did they make the design for Azog and suit him up for it, only to reverse their opinion and repurpose the design as Bolg before the scenes were shot? That would solve that, I think, but that's probably not something we'll ever know. If only the original scripts would be released like the early Star Wars drafts (I can dream...)

 
 

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