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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: The Arena:
Turin with Gurthang vs. Smaug

Keebler the Elf
Rivendell

Apr 6 2008, 6:29pm

Post #1 of 12 (4617 views)
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Turin with Gurthang vs. Smaug Can't Post

Now we know that Turin killed Glaurung, but that was while Glaurung was asleep, so it was an unfair fight. Could he at least have defeated Smaug while he was awake?


Greenleaf
Bree


Apr 7 2008, 1:50am

Post #2 of 12 (1092 views)
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Nothing is "unfair" [In reply to] Can't Post

when fighting a dragon. He could take Smaug. Maybe without Gurthang too.

The Iron of Death


Keebler the Elf
Rivendell

Apr 7 2008, 3:25pm

Post #3 of 12 (1116 views)
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Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Could you state your reasons? How could a man defeat a dragon, seeing as he had basically no magic powers?


Padster
Bree


Apr 7 2008, 4:16pm

Post #4 of 12 (1151 views)
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Turin gets toasted! [In reply to] Can't Post

One thing I think The Arena ought to be used for is a crucible to burn away key subjective influences that tend to allow otherwise weak combatants to overcome stronger combatants, such as:

- The need for certain outcomes to further the story
- Personal likes and dislikes

With that in mind I think one can fairly quickly evaluate the two opponents on purely their physical characteristics and then start to add the extra bits and pieces we know from the story, if they exist or are necessary.

So, Smaug is bigger, stronger and tougher both mentally and physically than Turin. So on the face of it he should toast Turin.

Is there anything in Turinís history that could sway this decision? Not really. His killing of Glaurung certainly doesnít. It was a sneak attack, while Glaurung was asleep. And the time Turin DID face Glaurung, he was mastered easily and sent on his way.

There are very few, if any, examples of a one on one combat between a dragon and a single humanoid opponent in Middle-earth that we could use to determine an outcome to this combat, which involves them knowing of the combat and the combat at least STARTING as a fair fight. The ONLY one I can think of is where Fram son of Frumgar kills Scatha the Worm. But even then, all we know is that it happened and that Scatha was killed. We know NOTHING of the circumstances of the battle, which means anything could have happened, and given other instances where a humanoid kills a dragon in Middle-earth, the victory was probably achieved through subterfuge (e.g.: Turin) or luck (e.g.: Bard).

Now Scatha was known as the Great Dragon of Ered Mithrin, and was killed around 2400 in the Third Age, which was before Smaug flew south (2770 TA?), and therefore Scatha was ĎGREATí even when considering Smaug (who lived up north at the same time). Thatís not to say Scatha was GREATER than Smaug, as we know Smaug was the GREATEST dragon in the Third Age, but we know Scatha was still a rock hard dragon.

So how was it that Fram managed to kill him? I can only think it was a combat that saw Fram somehow deliver a pretty terrifying, undetectable attack (until it landed obviously) to somewhere vital that was either mortal in itself to Scatha, or so wracked the drake in pain that it couldnít fight Fram properly, allowing Fram to finish the drake off in melee combat.

I just donít see beings as relatively puny as humanoids beings able to survive the onslaught of so great a beast, in a fair fight.

Humans and Eldar donít have the benefit of Ainur in that they are not inherently magical and cannot assume forms that could, arguably, be immune or very resistant to physical harm. Stab me with a sword and do I not bleed? Definitely is correct for a Man or an Eldar. Not so sure about a Balrog though.

So in short, and in a fair fight, Turin would get toasted by Smaug. Gurthang or no Gurthang. He is too small, and too prone to damage to take on so massive and resilient a beast one on one.

Cheers


Padster


Keebler the Elf
Rivendell

Apr 7 2008, 5:01pm

Post #5 of 12 (1111 views)
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Ok, so smashing this one lets try another one [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, you've dealt this post a blow it can't recover from. So I'll try another angle.


One Ringer
Tol Eressea


Apr 7 2008, 9:15pm

Post #6 of 12 (1127 views)
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Smaug wins . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

. . . . Turin died long before he ever came around. Wink

Ash nazg durbatulŻk, Ash nazg gimbatul,
Ash nazg thrakatulŻk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.

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Greenleaf
Bree


Apr 8 2008, 3:21am

Post #7 of 12 (1084 views)
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Why [In reply to] Can't Post

be fair when fighting a dragon? There "evil" as it is anyway. I think I would like to say Turin would win, but I have doubts. After all, though, its a fantasy!

The Iron of Death


Greenleaf
Bree


Apr 8 2008, 3:29am

Post #8 of 12 (1116 views)
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True, [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't want so see Turin die against Smaug. Personal bias' always will get the better of us though.

The Iron of Death


Idril Celebrindal
Tol Eressea


Apr 8 2008, 6:28pm

Post #9 of 12 (1145 views)
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Smaug wouldn't let Turin get close enough [In reply to] Can't Post

Turin could kill Smaug with Gurthang if Smaug ever let him get close enough. But that's the problem. Turin killed Glaurung by lying in wait for him in a narrow ravine and stabbing him in the gut from underneath as he passed overhead. This trick is unlikely to work with Smaug, since Smaug isn't ground bound. Also, Smaug is very wily and is unlikely to ever let Turin get close to him.

Turin would have to attack Smaug while he was sleeping or otherwise distracted.

With caffeine, all things are possible.

The pity of Bilbo will screw up the fate of many.

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(This post was edited by Idril Celebrindal on Apr 8 2008, 6:29pm)


Keebler the Elf
Rivendell


Apr 17 2008, 3:15pm

Post #10 of 12 (1063 views)
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he wouldn't get close enough [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, if Smaug could get drunk, maybe, but I doubt Turin has any chance here. Unless he has Lady Luck on his side.


Greenleaf
Bree


Apr 22 2008, 2:38am

Post #11 of 12 (1241 views)
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Well, [In reply to] Can't Post

Hero's are created by authors opinion, not facts. No one is unbeatable. In real life, I think one can be considered "a hero" one day then be challenged the next and die.But i think Tolkien created Turin as one of those Hero's who is never defeated, even when the odds are seemingly overwhelming. Hero's such as these die from there own fatal flaw, hint hint almost ALL Greek Tragedy's, and not from battle. So with authors advantage, say Turin and Glaurung somehow magically met in a story. Turin would win because it would be his destiny too, or else why put that battle in the story when Turin is destined to die in a different way. Say Turin and Glaurung are put into some random Gladiator like "arena" and are forced to fight. Glaurung would win. A human would never defeat a dragon, especially the ones created by Tolkien, in real time. But sometimes they do, which is only the outcome of authors influence, and the characters intended destiny. But AGAIN, in real life, or as real as it can be, Turin would get smashed. I don't know if anyone understands such twisted reasoning, though, haha.

The Iron of Death


Keebler the Elf
Rivendell


Apr 22 2008, 4:06pm

Post #12 of 12 (4864 views)
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Yah, I get it [In reply to] Can't Post

I see what you're trying to say.

 
 

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