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Legolas_Shoehorn
Bree
Jul 24 2015, 6:02am
Post #1 of 27
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The Legolas-Defying-Gravity controversy
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I keep hearing / reading "Oh you know, the collapsing bridge thing in Bot5A was okay, because Legolas walked on snow in FotR."
I don't understand how someone would justify the infamous Bot5A scene with the Caradhras scene in FotR. The circumstances in both scences were completely different.
The Walking-on-Snow thing in FotR was just a nice little detail that accentuated the nature of Legolas, precisely the elves. We got the idea of his recon/sniper-like abilities within the Fellowship. Remember a few scences before we saw Legolas spotting Sarumans crows before anyone else does.
Whereas the Anti-Gravity-Walk in Bot5A was Legolas only option to escape the deadly situation the screen writers brought him into. It wasn't Legolas active action - it was Peter Jacksons decision making. So the Bot5A Scene has nothing to do with Legolas character - it's a creative script problem.
My English is not that good, my Elvish is better ;-)
(This post was edited by Legolas_Shoehorn on Jul 24 2015, 6:04am)
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CathrineB
Rohan
Jul 24 2015, 6:33am
Post #2 of 27
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I'm with you on that. The scene of him walking on snow was a sweet little detail if you ask me. Not in your face, but for many a first visit to Middle Earth and they were met by this little "ooh" moment without it being too much.
The downright awful hopping up falling stones is on the other hand... not sweet. It's not charming and it's just something that feels shoved down your throat. It is one of the major reasons why the elf I love in Lord of the Rings I pretend is not the same in the Hobbit.
And I'm one of those who wasn't particularly put off by Legolas taking down the oliphaunt ever. Sure I was younger then so maybe I let more slip, but still.
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Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Rivendell
Jul 24 2015, 10:46am
Post #3 of 27
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It was terrible. And I didn't have a problem with the LOTR stunts. They look tame now in comparison.
What makes this whole sequence worse for me is that it takes place in the middle of what is supposed to be an emotional scene. We have major characters dying/fighting to the death but let's cut to Legolas running on air like a bad video game.
It takes you out of the severity of the situation. Plus, it implies the Legolas and Bolg "rivalry" is just as important as Thorin and Azog - after all, Bolg gave Legolas a bloody nose! How dare he!
Justice for Fili
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Skaan
Lorien
Jul 24 2015, 11:24am
Post #4 of 27
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This scene would've looked a lot more acceptable if they didn't do it in slowmotion.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 24 2015, 11:26am
Post #5 of 27
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Far as I can see the scene is what it is. On first viewing I was a bit bemused by it - it certainly wasn't something I expected. But I don't have the deep and profound disdain for Legolas that some do, and having seen it once it just became part of the film for me. Legolas was one of my favourite characters long before there was a film, and although the Legolas in my head isn't much like film-Legolas they co-exist quite happily for me.
But rather than take two scenes and say X doesn't justify Y I would make the thing broader. Legolas is not human, so who's to say how he would react to any possible physical challenge that Tolkien doesn't describe? It was Tolkien who gave us a Legolas who could walk on the surface of deep snow without sinking in or apparently feeling the cold. Was that a fluke? An ability unique to snowdrifts, or to snowdrifts high up in mountains, or to snowdrifts he encountered on a particular day of the week? Or was it a hint that Legolas could interact with the physical envirnment in a way humans can't? Or maybe it was something Tolkien wrote without thinking it through..... In any case, it leaves what Legolas can and can't do open to interpretation and as with any interpretation it's not definitive, it's personal and people will take different views.
Earlier this year someone here - possibly Dweller in Dale, I'm not sure - explained that the physics of that scene would work and the only reason it looked impossible is the slow motion - in reality it would have had to happen very quickly. I'm not a physicist so I'm not about to argue with someone who is. Me, I just accept the scene because it's there. I know it happened because I saw it. It's not something I would have put in the story but then, no one was asking me!
But I'd beware of talking about other people 'justifying' the scene in this way or that, because it implies that they're being insincere. I'm not, and I doubt they are either. This is Peter Jackson's Legolas - Legolas of the flying leap onto the horse, the skate boarding shield and the climbing a mumak using arrows. I accepted all those as part of three films I love and I can't see that this is really any different
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jul 24 2015, 12:45pm
Post #6 of 27
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Agree with all your sentiments – it is cringeworthy bad, like most of Legolas's 'action scenes' in the Hobbit.
In FotR, I thought Legolas walking on snow was lovely, and so subtly done that I didn't even notice it until someone pointed it out to me on a repeat viewing! I didn't particularly like the other FotR stunts, mainly because they looked so fake, but they were mercifully brief.
In the Hobbit, however, there are prolonged, fake-looking stunts involving this made-up Legolas, which actually interfere with the story very badly – as you point out. The barrel sequence in DoS could have been really good had we not had the absolutely stupid views of Legolas leaping on people's heads. The Legolas in Laketown business was awful, but the final scene during the battle was by far the worst, and as you rightly point out it occurs during perhaps the most tragic part of the films, taking away its impact. It's not fun (except perhaps for PJ and his apologists), or funny, or real looking. It is pointless and absolutely cringeworthy – and just makes me dislike the Legolas of LotR, who I was previously quite neutral about.
IMHO.
It was terrible. And I didn't have a problem with the LOTR stunts. They look tame now in comparison.
What makes this whole sequence worse for me is that it takes place in the middle of what is supposed to be an emotional scene. We have major characters dying/fighting to the death but let's cut to Legolas running on air like a bad video game.
It takes you out of the severity of the situation. Plus, it implies the Legolas and Bolg "rivalry" is just as important as Thorin and Azog - after all, Bolg gave Legolas a bloody nose! How dare he!
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Jul 24 2015, 12:47pm)
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Macfeast
Rohan
Jul 24 2015, 1:04pm
Post #7 of 27
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... to suggest that people are "justifying a scene"... but similarly do I think it is unfair to suggest that this is about a "deep and profound disdain for Legolas".
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Jul 24 2015, 1:11pm
Post #8 of 27
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I don't mind the Legolas scenes
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They're just mildly fun and entertaining. I think the movie would have been fine without them, but they didn't ruin the scenes for me and frankly, I don't find the things Legolas does any more astonishing than the things I see when I watch Olympic gymnastics. It all looks impossible to me - I couldn't do that stuff in a million years! However, I do agree with some of the other posters - the walking on snow scene in FOTR was the most magical, quiet glimpse of the difference between elves and humans and it has a beauty to it that the action stunts don't have.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 24 2015, 1:28pm
Post #9 of 27
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..but I didn't suggest that this - (meaning either this particular thread or the dislike of this scene) - is about a 'deep and profound disdain for Legolas'.
I simply said that some people have a deep and profound disdain for Legolas (meaning Orlando Bloom's Legolas) - and that they most certainly do. It was apparent in posts here long before we even knew that Legolas would appear in The Hobbit.
People's reasons for disliking the scene in question are their own, I don't judge them.
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Macfeast
Rohan
Jul 24 2015, 2:09pm
Post #10 of 27
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I don't like seeing suggestions of active hatred and disdain brought up anymore than I like seeing accusations of blind and apologetic fanboy-behavior - they both suggest to me the same kind of insincerity that you reference - even if it is not aimed at anyone in particular, so perhaps I am just being a little bit oversensitive here. I'd just rather see discussion stick to what is being said, than why people are saying it.
Apologies for the misinterpretation.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 24 2015, 4:05pm
Post #12 of 27
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What makes this whole sequence worse for me is that it takes place in the middle of what is supposed to be an emotional scene. We have major characters dying/fighting to the death but let's cut to Legolas running on air like a bad video game.
It takes you out of the severity of the situation. Plus, it implies the Legolas and Bolg "rivalry" is just as important as Thorin and Azog - after all, Bolg gave Legolas a bloody nose! How dare he!
I think I understand to a degree what PJ was going fo r, and Legolas worldwide it seems remains a popular character - but IMO this sequence is just another example of an "imbalance" in screen time AND what seems to be - from PJ & co. - not perhaps also factoring in that time had moved on since the dazzling Legolas of LOTR - e.g., we knew his character already - and by Hobbit movie 3 there were plenty of other "newer" characters to be fascinated by, including Legolas' daddy.
For me the Bolg/Legolas thing never worked - so Legolas staring at Bolg because they had a a dust-up (like a bar fight) was supposed to be on the level of Thorin/Azog?
We have major characters dying/fighting to the death but let's cut to Legolas running on air like a bad video game.
Well, yeah. *Sigh* . Although the "intrusions" re editing of Alfrid scenes, Legolas scenes, into scenes of desperation - I wonder if was deliberate, to keep the film tone lighter in spite of all the grimness, for a mixed family audience?
Tho for me, it's just jarring. And a little Legolas and Alfrid in BOFA would for me probably have been welcome and gone a long way, as opposed to a lot of these guys over some more battle scenes, or Beorn, say. And dwarves. Tho I do like the way Orcrist gets returned, and Legolas shooting the orcs down - then again, that kind of thing seems like something Legolas would be doing re his archery skills and nice nod back to the LOTR Legolas, IMO.
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Bishop
Gondor
Jul 24 2015, 6:14pm
Post #13 of 27
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I think there were two factors with Legolas
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This is speculation, mind you. But it would make sense.
1. The filmmakres thought that since he is younger he should capable of doing more radical stunts
2. Every film in the hexology must up the ante on the level of action, including but not limited to how ridiculous Legolas's antics become. Jackson has said so much.
I don't agree with either of these ideas in principal, and I long for the days when Legolas had to stand in one place to rapid-fire arrows.
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Jul 25 2015, 8:28am
Post #14 of 27
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I love Legolas the Elf, just as he is
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- or as PJ and co-writers have made him to be, whatever - whether in his later, LOTR years or his younger years as in 'The Hobbit', which is a period of great change for him, when he is for the first time in love (but Tauriel loves Kili) as well as in disagreement with his father the King, whose wisdom and actual love he comes to deeply question, for the first time too.
It is not through words but through his actions that he expresses the best he has in himself as an Elvish Prince, ever fearlessly taking up the most difficult situation as just another challenge he can master by his boldness, strength and skills, all well above the human scale we are used to.
I thoroughly enjoy all that he does, precisely because it is so Elvish, in a kind of extreme way that in my eyes suits him perfectly. That's the way he is, and I love him that way. In LOTR, the snow-walking is so natural to him that he doesn't even notice - and many in the audience didn't notice either, until they were told, as someone reports in this thread! But no, Legolas is not just the poetic snow-walker; especially in a battle, he tends to be permanently OTT, I would say, but in a way that I find just great!!!
In the specific example at the end of BOTFA that is being deemed controversial in the opening post - that is, his stepping so quickly and lightly on a bridge of falling stones that he manages to cross, I don't see, as some others say they do, a mere ridiculous need of revenge for his nose previously bloodied by Bolg, but the quite desperate, determined attempt to reach and at last kill the one who is now threatening his beloved Tauriel's life. Bolg absolutely must be killed, for her first of all, and also for all the other Elves he might otherwise go on killing as well if he isn't stopped. Moreover, Bolg is not only the son but also the captain of Azog; if he is killed, no one will be left to lead the Orcs' army when Azog is killed by Thorin.
So I must say I didn't laugh in disbelief, but on the contrary I gasped in admiration and wonder when I saw this most intrepid feat he attempted - and succeeded in doing!
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
(This post was edited by mae govannen on Jul 25 2015, 8:39am)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 26 2015, 9:21pm
Post #15 of 27
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I agree it's the scene, not the character
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but I think it's also the most egregious example of the things wrong with BOT5A, which is too much focus on side characters that weren't in the book, over the characters that WERE in the book. Like another poster said, it interrupted the tragic death of Kili and the sacrifice of Thorin - not to mention completely sidelining Beorn. I have no trouble with Legolas being in Mirkwood, he was a Mirkwood elf after all, and I love the barrels scene so much I can overlook the "running on Dwarves heads" scene. I actually like the fight scenes in Laketown, and it shows what a badass Bolg is that Legolas can't defeat him. So I agree that it's not Legolas, it's the badly written and untimely scene that's the problem.
Btw, I never even noticed that he was "walking on snow," it was so subtly done. But after FoTR his stunts started getting amped up. I could buy the shield skateboard, the horsemounting scene really looked pretty cool, but the Oliphant was a little OTT. Still, it was nothing compared to the running up falling bricks! And that's the fault of the script, not the actor or the character.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Jul 27 2015, 1:42pm
Post #16 of 27
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These specific objections I can understand
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for they make sense and aren't directed at Legolas in himself. The main objection is to the overall tendency to give too much screen time to the added stories:
" too much focus on side characters that weren't in the book, over the characters that WERE in the book."
This, though, isn't a reproach I would myself make to PJ, as I appreciate fully what he has done, from the different and equally valid point of view he had; and I do hope the EE will soon re-establish the balance that couldn't be kept in the too short TE; but at least I can understand the frustration of those who don't agree with PJ's point of view and the link he was trying to clearly establish, which I believe is real and important to bring out, between 'The Hobbit' and the later LOTR.
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jul 27 2015, 4:02pm
Post #17 of 27
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It seems like nobody has the cajones to tell Peter..."ahh, let us not do that"
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or, if someone does counsel a less OTT approach they are heard and then the decision is made to go full steam ahead. Who knows if the studio demands MORE ACTION vs whether it was all internal decision making. My guess is that it is PJ being excessive for the spectacle of the scene. "Wouldn't it be cool if.........,"
I don't mind the Legolas and Tauriel etc....I just wish the movie was long enough to accomodate a full telling of the tale with the important scenes preserved. Too much to expect for the EE unless they add 45+ minutes.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 27 2015, 4:36pm
Post #18 of 27
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Hopefully SOME of that would be focused on the Dwarves!
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jul 27 2015, 4:44pm
Post #19 of 27
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The scene would have been perfect
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If it had lasted only a very short moment, the fast blink of an eye, something at which people gasp saying to themselves : "did I really see what I saw ?', and wait until the DVD to jump on the frame-to-frame device to cure their fugacious astonishment.
Seing it in slow-mo, under two different angles, it feels almost endless, which is quite sad for such an improvised tour de force..
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AshNazg
Gondor
Jul 27 2015, 5:06pm
Post #20 of 27
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From the sound of the commentaries...
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People do tell PJ when he's stepped out of line, and it just encourages him to go further. In parts like the stick insect, PB says that everyone was telling PJ to cut it out and it just made him want to do it more.
I think sometimes a director needs to learn to trust the opinions of his crew.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jul 27 2015, 5:09pm
Post #21 of 27
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I recall the bunny sled meeting, there were some uneasy looks at the table
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but that is what the boss wanted and that is what he got.
One of the reasons FOTR is an overall favorite for me is due to its lack of OTT moments compared to the other films.
For every person who thinks...COOOL!...there is another thinking, WHY? or Oh No!
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jul 27 2015, 5:13pm)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 27 2015, 10:31pm
Post #22 of 27
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I guess I have to be in the minority here (which I can live with!) I like the scene.
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That whole section of the film to me narrows down to what people do for love. The Durin boys die for it; Thorin takes a mortal wound both figuratively and literally; Bilbo risks life and limb for it. So I see Legolas' move as just that. He will do the impossible for love - romantic maybe, deeply fraternal definitely. His 'impossible' as an immortal Elf by definition is a lot further than ours. I found myself that first view and still find myself saying, go Legolas, and feeling a rush of feeling for him when he leaps up the falling stones.
(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 27 2015, 10:32pm)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 27 2015, 11:00pm
Post #23 of 27
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Oh Brethil, I'm glad you're here....
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..and I do like that way of looking at it. The impossible for love - well, yes, that fits.
It's always so good to hear someone come right out and say they like something rather than pick it over to see what's wrong with it! 
(And before anyone rushes in brandishing a turnip, please rest assured that I'm not saying anyone has to like anything they don't. Just that sometimes it's refreshing, and cheering, to hear someone say what they like, and why they like it. Happy is good!)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jul 28 2015, 12:27am
Post #25 of 27
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Would that be a sharpened turnip? Particularly dangerous. //
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..and I do like that way of looking at it. The impossible for love - well, yes, that fits. It's always so good to hear someone come right out and say they like something rather than pick it over to see what's wrong with it! And before anyone rushes in brandishing a turnip, please rest assured that I'm not saying anyone has to like anything they don't. Just that sometimes it's refreshing, and cheering, to hear someone say what they like, and why they like it. Happy is good!)
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