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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
what if tauriel and kili did get together...
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balbo biggins
Rohan


Jul 27 2015, 3:15pm

Post #1 of 46 (3947 views)
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what if tauriel and kili did get together... Can't Post

or any dwarf and elf...

We know men and elves can procreate and produce half elves, who seem to have more in common with elves physically but sort of get to choose if they become mortal or not...so what would happen if we got elf/dwarf babies?

would we have little pixie elves running around, or tall dwarves? elves with beards or hairless dwarves? every outcome i can envisage is quite comical!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 27 2015, 3:48pm

Post #2 of 46 (3818 views)
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Too different? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have doubts that Elves and Dwarves (or Men and Dwarves) could reproduce. I think that Dwarves would have to be thought of as a separate species, unable to produce hybrids with other humanoid races. If they did, the offspring might be mules (unable to reproduce). Of course, the magical nature of Elves might play a factor in making such unions possible.


For the record, Iron Crown Enterprise's Middle-earth Role Playing (MERP) game did introduce the Umli, a people who "live in the Far North of north-central Middle-earth, east of the Lossoth. They are a race of short folk who apparently came from an ancient union of Men and Dwarves. Legends call them Half-dwarves." However, the Umli seem to be non-canonical with Tolkien's legendarium. I apologize if my response is more serious than what you might have been expecting.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 27 2015, 3:50pm)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jul 27 2015, 4:02pm

Post #3 of 46 (3809 views)
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Dwelves? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm thinking a mating between dwarves & men (or women) is more likely than dwarves & elves, for um, logistical reasons?WinkLaughLaughLaugh Aidan Turner even makes a joke about that in one of the behind the scenes appendices. IMO, since there are dwarves/short people in the race of man, I don't see why such a pairing couldn't take place or result in children. As the shortest member of my family, I'm often called a dwarf, though I imagine I'd be considered tall for a female dwarf from, say, Erid Luin. Looking outside of Tolkien's world to another legendary set of dwarves, since all 7 had a crush on Snow White I'm thinking Tolkien's dwarves could also fall in love with women from the race of men (gotta find a shorter way of saying that, LOL!). And I'm quite sure that lots of women could easily fall for a dwarf if he looked like one of them:



I mean, how many threads on TORn have been devoted to Thorin's hair? Silly question, of course it could happen!EvilHeartHeartHeart

And the result would probably be lots of attractive short guys running around, tall perhaps for dwarves but short for men - not that anyone would care about such things.Tongue

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 27 2015, 6:25pm

Post #4 of 46 (3739 views)
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Wouldn't happen... [In reply to] Can't Post

Courtly love - as per Gimli's devotion to Galadriel - is romantic, not physical. Similarly Kili, Tauriel... It was never about 'getting it together'.

Physically, given the very different circumstances of their creation I suspect the two races are incompatible.


balbo biggins
Rohan


Jul 27 2015, 7:50pm

Post #5 of 46 (3677 views)
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cmon, if course they could! [In reply to] Can't Post

we're all being very unfair to dwarves here, if elves and men, elves and maiar, men and elves/half maiar, elves and orcs?! to some extent!? then why not dwarfs and elves? there are dwarf women for some sort of biological reason! im sure its possible.

im pretty sure kili had more on his mind than just walking under the starlight with tauriel, he even makes a reference to his johnson!

look peter jackson started this, so your just gonna have to go with it! elves with beards and ugly noses, thats how i see it!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 27 2015, 8:11pm

Post #6 of 46 (3665 views)
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You know what happens when you assume. [In reply to] Can't Post

Elves and Men are both the Children of Iluvatar; presumably that is why they can bear children with each other. Orcs were created from the corruption of Men and/or Elves, explaining why they can breed with Men (and Elves?). Dwarves were brought to life by Eru, but it was by Aule's hand that they were made. That makes it much less likely that they could reproduce with either Elves or Men.


Hey, we know that Tolkien was Catholic; but, honestly, reproduction is not the sole purpose of sex. Even if they could never produce children, that does not preclude Kili and Tauriel being able to enjoy each other's company in the fullest sense of the word. Who says that Captain Jack Harkness can be the only omnisexual in s.f./fantasy?

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 27 2015, 8:12pm)


Bishop
Gondor


Jul 27 2015, 10:05pm

Post #7 of 46 (3624 views)
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Why not? [In reply to] Can't Post

And who is to say? I don't see any indication that their attraction to one another was only romantic and not physical. They certainly had a flirtatious repartee, that's for sure. He's tall for a Dwarf. He could have anything down his trousers. Etc Etc. Plus Kili's attraction to Elves is fully on display well before DOS. It looks to me that the filmmakers were absolutely hinting at a physical courtship, at least if the circumstances allowed for it.


balbo biggins
Rohan


Jul 27 2015, 10:16pm

Post #8 of 46 (3649 views)
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but... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
honestly, reproduction is not the sole purpose of sex. Even if they could never produce children, that does not preclude Kili and Tauriel being able to enjoy each other's company


thanks for pointing that out to me :S bluerrghgh

if every species on middle earth can reproduce, and we know dwarves make babies so there must be some sort of physical conception, and birth, a baby must come from an egg and that must be fertilized, so we have to conclude some sort of coitus takes place, therefore im assuming male dwarves have some sort of penis (possibly small and stumpy, but very rock solid when needed) it might take some elf magic, but im assuming it could happen...

then again theres a reason why Tolkien didnt write any elf dwarf romances!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Nomad
Forum Admin


Jul 27 2015, 10:19pm

Post #9 of 46 (3611 views)
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If you divorce the movies completely from the books... well, pretty much anything is possible. [In reply to] Can't Post

I choose to remain loyal to Tolkien's narrative and he certainly never even hinted that an elf could ever remotely be attracted to a dwarf. And of course Tauriel doesn't even exist outside of the movie. I mean if Jackson decided to write in a subplot about a cave troll turned good wandering West and maybe hooking up with one of the entwives, we could have similar surmisings about inter-species breeding... maybe even a love triangle where we see Fangorn and a troll duking it out over Fimbrethel.





Glorfindela
Valinor


Jul 27 2015, 10:38pm

Post #10 of 46 (3599 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

Elrond is Half-Elven, I believe, so obviously the Elven and Human species can interbreed. If that's the case, then so could Elves and Dwarves, probably (though Kili certainly didn't look like any Dwarf). However, it's not something I would have like to see…in fact I would have been quite happy not to have seen Turiel at all.UnimpressedAngelic


(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Jul 27 2015, 10:40pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 27 2015, 11:01pm

Post #11 of 46 (3591 views)
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Don't confuse physical compatability with genetic compatability. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure that we should discuss genetics in Middle-earth, but even Tolkien ended up concluding that both Elves and Men must have been close genetic relatives after a biologist (geneticist?) wrote to him about Half-elves. Dwarves, not being closely related to either Men or Elves, probably could not produce Half-dwarf children. But only Professor Tolkien knew for sure.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


balbo biggins
Rohan


Jul 27 2015, 11:39pm

Post #12 of 46 (3562 views)
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very similar [In reply to] Can't Post

you only have to look at a dwarf and see genetic similarities with men and elves...and dwarf 'seed' would surely be very potent stuff and could probably fertilize a rock!

what have you got against dwarves interbreeding!! its just prejudice on your part!!

how about a hobbit and a dwarf then? dwobbits?

the sad thing is if tauriel and kili had got together, got married and were really in love they would tottally have tried to have kids, and theyd probably produce some gollum like freakoid creature! and the marriage would fall apart beacuse of the suffering they created. i feel like some fanfiction is waiting to be writtten......


(This post was edited by balbo biggins on Jul 27 2015, 11:43pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 28 2015, 4:23am

Post #13 of 46 (3501 views)
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Fanfic? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm...not sure that's a good idea.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 28 2015, 8:01am

Post #14 of 46 (3530 views)
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Two reasons... [In reply to] Can't Post

First, from Tolkien's description I'm assuming that the genes of elf and dwarf would probably not be compatible. Let's be very clear that I'm not taking this as a thinly-veiled discussion about whether the different colours and types of human being should mix in our own world. That's easily dealt with - they should if they want to, we're all human.

I'm taking the question of elf and dwarf to be quite different - a discussion about what might happen an imagined creation in which there are really different races, different in kind and in origin. I'm imagining how that would work. From Tolkien's description it seems that the Children - elves and humans - have the same physical make-up because they can interbreed. So they have similar physical bodies, made of the same stuff but animated by very different spirits. The origin of dwarves as Tolkien tells it is quite different. Aule made them in secret - the suggestion is that he made them from stone or metal - and Eru brought them to independent life by putting a spirit into them. That gives them a totally different physical make-up which makes me think it's most likely that elves and dwarves couldn't interbreed - if Kili and Tauriel had skipped off into the sunset together I don't think there would be any little dwelves. Just how I see it.

The other reason is literary. Tolkien understood the concept of courtly love and his description of Gimli's feelings for Galadriel fits very firmly into that tradition. Courtly love is all compliment, sentiment and emotion, it isn't about sex. The Feast of Starlight conversation slotted perfectly into that tradition. The 'trousers' comment and so on didn't and I think that's why a lot of people picked up on it - it felt too modern. In the film they made Kili act in a 'laddish' way the audience would recognise - fancying elves, making suggestive remarks. Our generation always focuses on sex rather than love and I think we forget how modern that is. In A. S Byatt's Possession (brilliant book!) one of the characters says:

"I was thinking last night - about what you said about our generation and sex. We see it everywhere. As you say, we are very knowing. . . . We never say the word Love, do we - we know it's a suspect ideological construct - especially Romantic Love - so we have to make a real effort of imagination to know what it felt like to be them [people in the past - in this case, Victorians] here, believing in these things. . ."

I don't mind Kili/Tauriel. It's part of the film and (I think) they've made interesting appealing characters of them. But for me the things about that storyline that ring true are the ones that fit into earlier literary traditions. And in the script, as I understand it, it was always intended to be a doomed love and one that could never be - the sort of connection that arises between two people who are out of love with their own surroundings. So discussion of whether they could have children seems to me to be missing the point. They were never going to.



Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jul 28 2015, 8:15am

Post #15 of 46 (3474 views)
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No, Dwarves are too different. [In reply to] Can't Post

dormouse explained it well in this thread. The whole creation process for Dwarves was different. Dogs and wolves can interbreed, but dogs and cats cannot. It's kinda like that.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jul 28 2015, 8:18am)


the 13th warrior
Rivendell


Jul 28 2015, 9:32am

Post #16 of 46 (3450 views)
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By Elbereth, I think you've got it..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Dormouse, thanks for your very detailed thoughts, you covered a lot of ground, from free folk origins to courtly love, medieval ethics.

I think your home run point is that Kili and Tauriel were doomed to unrequited love which I think is also part of the courtly love ethic. For various reasons, a lord and lady cannot have each other and must live with their codes of honor and not act upon these feelings. ((Not unlike Aragorn and Eowyn, who have an unspoken vibe in the movies that is far more detailed in the books.))

IMHO the power of the movie Kili/Tauriel relationship is that we the audience see the possibilities, the first tentative steps to each other, but the battle took its toll and swept all hope away. What Tauriel has is a bitter memory of her first romantic feelings that will last forever!! since she is an elf, unless she is killed in battle.

Another weird comparison flashed through my mind, West Side Story, and to an extent, Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet that West Side Story is based on: trying to find love with a lover from the opposing faction.

In the end, Tony/Kili cannot have the girl he loves. She wants to return his love, but fate won't let it happen and he is killed in a battle between rival gangs. He and Maria/Tauriel come from feuding tribes, Sharks vs Jets, elves vs dwarves. You can't love your enemy when ancient tribal conflicts run too deep. They won't let you. Perhaps a big stretch on my part, but in the end, Maria/Tauriel is kneeling by the dead body of the one she loved with nothing but memories and anquish.

Hobbit 3 would have lost a lot of dramatic punch if Kili and Tauriel went off happily into the sunset.

Their lost chance at love is powerful in its effect on us viewers, like King Thran said, "It was real."

The 13th Warrior, Left Field Caliphate,
"From the scroll rooms of Gondor....."


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 28 2015, 1:27pm

Post #17 of 46 (3401 views)
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Courtly Love [In reply to] Can't Post

I will agree with you, dormouse, with this caveat: I think that courtly love was largely a literary invention and a social convention among royalty and the aristocracy; and it was not a tradition that was practiced by the common folk. And, people being people, it did not prevent anyone aside from the most idealistic from having lovers on the side or from harboring what would have been considered at that time to be more deviant desires. We know that bawdy stuff happened in Medieval times; it just didn't make it into most of the literature.


I do wish that I had made the same point as you about the different spirits inhabiting the bodies of Elves, Dwarves and Men (although it is unclear if the Dwarves had the same form of mortality as Men; this seems to be the case even if their experience in the afterlife might have been different).

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Bishop
Gondor


Jul 28 2015, 3:38pm

Post #18 of 46 (3355 views)
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Great post, thanks! But I still disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

On your first reason, as it has been suggested by others here their attraction to one another is not dependent in any way on whether or not they can procreate. The larger and more awkward question is simply whether or not Elves and Dwarves are sexually compatible (in any sense). Does anyone have the answer to that? Given Kili's responses to Elves I don't know that there can be any question that there is some kind of compatibility. Also I never once thought you were making a comment about the real world with your thoughts on it. Smile

On the second reason I do agree with you on Tolkien's understanding of courtly love, as well as the role it plays in his stories. But that hardly forces Kili and Tauriel into that box. I think it's impossible to deny that Jackson is playing fast and loose with those ideas and it leaves a lot to interpretation. I also think it's a bit of a stretch to draw a parallel between Gimli and Galadriel.

For example, you say the dialog between Tauriel and Kili is "too modern". While that may be the case, it is also forwardly sexual. One does not equate the other. The two characters are young and attractive, with outspoken intent to make Kili the hunk of the group. As I mentioned special attention is paid to showing that Kili is physically attracted to Elves. And what strikes me as the clearest sign that their infatuation is strongly physical is that they literally have about 5 minutes to get to know one another, in which nothing happens. Sure, Kili sees Tauriel fight off some spiders. But is that enough for Kili to develop some kind of courtly love with her? It doesn't make any sense. He's firing off flirtatious one liners right out of the gate, and Tauriel is taking the bait.

To be clear here I'm saying that the way they are presented by Jackson, not Tolkien, leaves the door wide open on exactly what kind of love they had for one another.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jul 28 2015, 5:05pm

Post #19 of 46 (3330 views)
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My take on the "trousers" line [In reply to] Can't Post

I always found it funny and not so offensive as others, but that's because I can see lots of guys saying something like that. I'm a woman who spent 4 years in the USAF, maybe that's not the greatest example but that's what I am basing this on. Yes it's an overtly sexual line, but I think for men it's also a way of asserting themselves, especially if they feel (for lack of a better word) threatened by a woman. In other words, a guy might say that whether he really means it or not, and Tauriel had not only demonstrated a great fighting ability, but he was her prisoner at the time.

There was never any doubt that Kili was attracted to female elves, so to me the question was always how Tauriel felt about Kili. In DOS I got the idea that she maybe liked him, but it wasn't romantic love. Remember she also expressed concern about people in other lands, so I thought maybe she just didn't like Orcs killing her prisoners. I also have NO reason to think she ever thought she'd find Kili in Bard's house, in fact I think she thought Kili was already dead. But when she found him near death's door, she just couldn't walk away and let him die. But then we had that scene in BOT5A, oh well. I actually would like it better if they didn't fall in any kind of love, sexual or otherwise, but maybe just had a deep fondness and respect for each other - probably alot closer to the Gimli/Galadriel thing.

But really, we're talking movies and fictional characters anyway, so really I don't see why they couldn't procreate if that was their desire. As I said in my other post there are Dwarves/short people running around in real life, and pairings happen all the time, so why not? And if elves and men can hook up, and dwarves and women can also hook up (Freudian slip?), then why not elves and dwarves? It's just as plausible as running up falling bricksSly

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 28 2015, 5:37pm

Post #20 of 46 (3315 views)
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Indeed, I agree as JRRT says in Letters [In reply to] Can't Post

that Elves and Humans are biologically one race. Dwarves - in both storytelling and by the exception and thus inference of NOT being mentioned in the equation - aren't. Following this logic, the romance would be doomed in a bigger picture in the sense of being sterile.


Love all of your points, DM. Cool









dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 28 2015, 7:04pm

Post #21 of 46 (3291 views)
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Feel free to disagree, that's fine by me :-) [In reply to] Can't Post

But I can't help smiling, just a bit, because I think your post bears my point. When you say this:


Quote
For example, you say the dialog between Tauriel and Kili is "too modern". While that may be the case, it is also forwardly sexual. One does not equate the other. The two characters are young and attractive, with outspoken intent to make Kili the hunk of the group. As I mentioned special attention is paid to showing that Kili is physically attracted to Elves. And what strikes me as the clearest sign that their infatuation is strongly physical is that they literally have about 5 minutes to get to know one another, in which nothing happens. Sure, Kili sees Tauriel fight off some spiders. But is that enough for Kili to develop some kind of courtly love with her? It doesn't make any sense. He's firing off flirtatious one liners right out of the gate, and Tauriel is taking the bait.


It seems to me that you're seeing onscreen is two very attractive young human beings engaging in a flirtatious banter with more than a hint of sexual innuendo which will inevitably lead to them 'getting together' as the OP puts it (except of course that we know they're acting.) It's what happens, isn't it? It's what we expect, and in Western societies it isn't taken seriously these days. What you're not seeing (and should be) is an immortal elf who has been in the world for at least 600 years talking to a 77-year-old being from a completely different race, both from cultures as unlike our own as they are unlike one another's. What you're seeing is too human and too modern.

Sex has always been around or we wouldn't be here, but if you want a clear example of how the behaviour and language considered appropriate around it have changed in a relatively short time, take a look at classic films of the 1930s and 40s. Then look at Victorian novels and plays. Or Jane Austen. And as for this:


Quote
what strikes me as the clearest sign that their infatuation is strongly physical is that they literally have about 5 minutes to get to know one another, in which nothing happens.


...well, the way they come together fits perfectly into the tradition of courtly love - have you never heard of love at first sight? Love. Emotion - infatuation, if you will, not physical attraction - or, if so, then an attraction which will never be made overt, or acted upon.

Another thing - you suggest that 'it's a bit of a stretch to draw a parallel between Kili and Tauriel and Gimli and Galadriel' and at that point I can hold up my hands and say "not me, guv" because it was Philippa Boyens who drew that parallel. In one of her numerous interviews she says quite explicitly that she and Fran Walsh were intrigued by the Gimli/Galadriel storyline and wanted to explore the idea some more - so the parallel is there.

As for your last point, my own feeling about this is that while I'm happy for Peter Jackson to adapt the stories, introduce other characters and incidents for the screen, what he can't do - and in fairness, I don't believe he wants to do - is change the essential nature of Tolkien's creation. I don't believe he and his co-writers did leave the door open. I think this was always meant to be the doomed love that it became - else why weave it around a dwarf who is bound to die, when you have ten more who will still be alive at the end of the film?



(This post was edited by dormouse on Jul 28 2015, 7:10pm)


Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien


Jul 29 2015, 2:19am

Post #22 of 46 (3231 views)
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Not 5 minutes... [In reply to] Can't Post

The movie speeds up time. And Tauriel did speak to him a few times, and it is inferred that Tauriel and Kili had a long conversation with each other when he was holding the runestone. On top of that they both were from very different cultures which are very different.

Also "love at first sight" isn't uncommon at all in Middle-earth, it is actually canon. Stories like Beren and Luthien were "love at first sight" too, I guess it could be weird, but it's not weird for Middle-earth. I'm pretty sure it's happened in other stories than Beren and Luthien in Middle-earth.

"Obviously the idea of being human is a very human idea."
-Dominic Monaghan


dreamflower
Lorien

Jul 29 2015, 12:04pm

Post #23 of 46 (3193 views)
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Fanfic! [In reply to] Can't Post

If you are suggesting fanfic itself is not a good idea, you are a little late to put that genie back in the bottle.

If you are suggesting that particular plot bunny is not a good idea, I would tend to agree.

Actually, I once came across a fanfic that suggested that hobbits came about because the offspring of A Dwarf and an Elf got together with the offspring of a Man and a Dwarf. I found the scenario a bit implausible, but as it was more or less a minor subplot in an otherwise interesting story, I let it slide.

OTOH, I will never click on any story that has either the words "dwobbit" or "Bagginshield" in the summary.

Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.


dreamflower
Lorien

Jul 29 2015, 12:15pm

Post #24 of 46 (3179 views)
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Love at first sight [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Also "love at first sight" isn't uncommon at all in Middle-earth, it is actually canon. Stories like Beren and Luthien were "love at first sight" too, I guess it could be weird, but it's not weird for Middle-earth. I'm pretty sure it's happened in other stories than Beren and Luthien in Middle-earth


Nearly all the "famousest" love stories in M-e are love at first sight: Melian/Thingol, Beren/Luthien, Aragorn/Arwen, and even Faramir fell for Eowyn at first sight, though Eowyn took slightly longer to reciprocate.

Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Jul 29 2015, 12:21pm

Post #25 of 46 (3178 views)
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Most certainly [In reply to] Can't Post

With respect, I do believe PJ DID 'change the essential nature of Tolkien's creation' in more respects than that applied to Tauriel, Legolas and the human-looking Kili. You don't mean to say that the grossness, stupidity and comic-book action shovelled in as 'fun' and/or some desperate attempt to link the two trilogies at every opportunity was not 'changing the essential nature of Tolkien's creation'? Do you really think it fitted in the world of Tolkien? I beg to differ.

And in PJ's world, it's of course perfectly feasible for Dwarves and Elves to have affairs. In fact, anything can be justified by the apologists.

There's a lot that I like about the Hobbit, especially AUJ, but there are also several things that I strongly dislike, and which mar the films for me (particularly when it comes to DoS and the third film).


In Reply To
As for your last point, my own feeling about this is that while I'm happy for Peter Jackson to adapt the stories, introduce other characters and incidents for the screen, what he can't do - and in fairness, I don't believe he wants to do - is change the essential nature of Tolkien's creation.



(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Jul 29 2015, 12:23pm)

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