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why so few children for galadriel?
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Maciliel
Valinor


Jul 27 2015, 1:04am

Post #1 of 42 (4587 views)
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why so few children for galadriel? Can't Post

 
such a wonderful character..... and her kin are so fecund. why did tolkien assign so few children to galadriel?

one -- celebrian
two -- amroth (variant)

did tolkien have trouble dealing with a rich storyline attached to a mother-figure character? he highlights the maidens so often -- luthien, arwen, eowyn, etc. the mothers who give birth to many progeny (findis, nerdanel, earwen) don't get as much storyline as the maidens.

did tolkien have trouble relating to galadriel as a mother?

how exciting a brood of galadriel offspring would have been -- imagine the counter-balancing effect of 7 daughters of galadriel to 7 sons of feanor.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


squire
Half-elven


Jul 27 2015, 3:35am

Post #2 of 42 (4513 views)
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Tolkien didn't think Mom thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you're right that he avoided mother characters. It's a big topic, so let it go for now, and remember that he postulated in his unpublished papers that Elves typically had very few children. Feanor is remarkable exception to the rule. Galadriel is normal and well within the range of Elvish procreation. The obvious reason is that, as immortals, if Elves had many children after a few generations they'd overrun the earth.



squire online:
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CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 27 2015, 3:44am

Post #3 of 42 (4501 views)
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*another flying tackle hug is in order, Mac!* [In reply to] Can't Post

You must feel like Calvin coming home from school (if you ever read Calvin & Hobbes; if not, never mind).

Not only does Galadriel have but one wee lass to bestow her DNA upon, but said daughter is not even in Middle-earth for us readers, but one of those overseas Elves.

I believe Tolkien wrote somewhere that part of the decline of the Elves was that they had fewer children over time, which might explain why Galadriel & hubby weren't reproducing enough to replace themselves, but then it doesn't explain Elrond having 3 children with her daughter, does it?

No idea why she appears to us as a non-mother, except maybe that might detract from her figure looming over the story the way it does? There is something solitary about her, unique in her stature, and if I think about her at random, I even forget that she has a husband. I think if she were a mother with grown children around, they would play a greater role in her psyche, wouldn't they? That dramatic test of hers at the Mirror wouldn't just be about her becoming a Dark Queen, but she'd be thinking about using the One Ring to save the world for her children too, or conflicted about what role they would play if she possessed the One. Since so much of her character development pivots on that moment, maybe JRR was sweeping distractions like the pitter-patter of little feet off the stage?

Mere speculation. I don't really have a solid to your great question.


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jul 27 2015, 9:45am

Post #4 of 42 (4475 views)
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Elven children in general [In reply to] Can't Post

Most Elves did seem to eventually die or go overseas, but if they did have lots of children some would survive and they would have childen and they would have children and so on. It would be a funny old world if you could actually be alive at the same time as your great-great-great-great-great-great- grandparent, which would happen!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 27 2015, 12:32pm

Post #5 of 42 (4461 views)
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Did they? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Most Elves did seem to eventually die or go overseas...




I question that, in that the majority of Elves in Middle-earth would not have been either Noldor nor Sindar. The Wood-elves of Rhovanion would have been, if not Avari, then Teleri and much more like the Avari than the Eldar (yes, the Sindar were of the Teleri, but they were much more like the Noldor in character than were the Wood-elves). I would expect that most of the Silvan Elves would have remained in Middle-earth to eventually diminish and fade.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 27 2015, 2:13pm

Post #6 of 42 (4444 views)
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For me, the low birth rate fits with the elves as a fading race [In reply to] Can't Post

The elves we meet & hear about seem a demoralized bunch. Things in the Third Age just ain't what they used to be. Elves are slipping away west, or are confining themselves to enclaves like Rivendell or Lorien. And those (Lorien particularly) are being maintained by somewhat suspect magic (bargain with Sauron involved). Maybe Middle-earth is not a world into which they any longer want to bear children?

~~~~~~

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

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CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 27 2015, 2:57pm

Post #7 of 42 (4443 views)
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Where are the kids hiding? [In reply to] Can't Post

The more I think about this, the more I think she did pretty good for her generation of the Finwe lineage in producing at least one offspring.

Her 4 brothers: only Orodreth had a child, and he had only one.

Feanor's 7 sons: only one child for the lot of them.

Fingolfin's kids: Aredehl, Turgon, and Fingon each had only one child.

On the Sindar side, Thingol & Melian had only one child, and if Cirdan had any progeny, they're never mentioned.

Beren & Luthien only had one child, Dior, but he had three.

Overall, I would say the number of children per family is entirely plot-driven. If Tolkien needed another character, he had someone make more babies. For the Noldor to return to Beleriand and have many princes in many lands, he needed lots of princes. But when he had less Elven real estate in the Third Age, he needed fewer royals to run things, hence fewer kids were called for.


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jul 27 2015, 6:32pm

Post #8 of 42 (4414 views)
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hidden in Quenya [In reply to] Can't Post

While Amroth was a rejected idea, Treebeard reveals that Galadriel had "many" children. The Ent greets Galadriel and Celeborn with some High Elven...

A vanimar, vanimįlion nostari "O beautiful ones, parents of beautiful children"

Compare to a line in Galadriel's Namarie: i falmalinnar imbe met on the foaming waves between us

In The Road Goes Ever On Tolkien analyzed falmalinnar as falma-li-nnar in the interlinear translation, and glossed the middle element as "many".

Galadriel had many children! Wink

PS: just kidding... but Treebeard does say this anyway. I expect he is speaking very generally about Elves in comparison to Ents, considering the numbers of Ents and so on about the Entwives.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jul 27 2015, 6:37pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 28 2015, 10:01am

Post #9 of 42 (4348 views)
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"the number of children per family is entirely plot-driven" [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd agree with that. With the caveat that I think Tolkien sometimes switched over to "drawing family trees, and making up arcane background details" mode. But was that something he did more after publication of LOTR? Certainly when we last read through Unfinished Tales, we seemed to come across examples of Tolkien working out details (and sometimes seeming to become enmeshed in them)

Maybe, as the Fellowship passed Lorien, Tolkien was more interested in keeping his plot moving? If that's so, then seven daughters of Galadriel could indeed be an unwanted distraction. And them maybe (especially as I think he changed his mind about Galadriel's story a few times) children were not a detail he got around to.

~~~~~~

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Maciliel
Valinor


Jul 28 2015, 2:40pm

Post #10 of 42 (4332 views)
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***** +thank you+ for the flying tackle hug :) ***** [In reply to] Can't Post

 
cg, thank you so much for another flying tackle hug -- they're grrrrrrreat! ('tho i'm conflating tigers, here.) honestly, it's magical, and just what i need -- thank you! :)

yes, we know so little of celebrian.... another absent mother in the tolkien canon (like miriel, like theoden's mother, like elwing, like turgon's wife, elenwe, like aragorn's mother, gilraen, etc.).

i have to force myself to think of arwen as galadriel's granddaughter, not just elrond's daughter.

all this absent mother business also makes me think of elrond and how he might have developed to be a sort of stand-in for tolkien. missing both parents, orphaned at a practical level (if not a literal one), the professorial-like attributes of elrond -- the love of lore, the healer.

i do think tolkien's personal experience seems to have made depicting mothers with depth.

galadriel is such an interesting character. and i -- like many -- often forget she has a husband, and recall less that she has a daughter. one would think that being a mother and a grandmother would affect her decision-making, and be part of her persona, but it does not evince itself that way in the stories.

in the most optimal scenario, the experience of parenthood adds depth and wisdom and empathy to a person. it doesn't have to, of course, but that's the best case scenario. if someone is untouched by being a parent, does that not seem to make them a bit dim, or a bit lacking? i'm not saying galadriel is such -- just that it seems a bit weird for her to ooze wisdom, and have none of that cross-referenced by her being a parent. and (for me) it's mainly because tolkien gives her so much text acreage. elrond also gets a lot of acreage, but i also get a sense of him being a parent to arwen ('tho he has an advantage because his daughter is not one of those "overseas" elves, as you put it).

on one hand, though -- i do like the fact that galadriel is not +defined+ as mainly a mother. she's first "galadriel." which is refreshing, especially in works of earlier generations.

i think your highlighting of galadriel's mother aspect during her trial by ring moment with frodo is interesting to consider. there are some folks that are not burdened by conscience at all, when it comes to considering the acquisition of power.. it's all "me -- me -- me." and there are other power-grabbers who do take a moment to think of their offspring... seizing the crown for themselves and their heirs. which is frequently and greatly influenced by narcissism, and vainglory (achieving immortality through one's children and one's legacy). a slightly different consideration, when one is an immortal elf, but still.

cheers ---


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jul 28 2015, 2:43pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jul 28 2015, 2:52pm

Post #11 of 42 (4335 views)
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mom thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

 
your turns of phase ("tolkien didn't think mom thoughts") often makes me smile, squire... thank you.

yes, i agree that galadriel is "within the range"... but still....

her mom and dad had a large passel of children (4). her full-blood uncle and his wife also had a large brood (4). and her half-blooded uncle had an even larger brood (7).

perhaps some of that fecundity is due to procreating in aman, vs. procreating on the mainland.

galadriel is such an interesting foil to feanor in many ways. we learn of tolkien's esteem of them both via adjunct writings (not from lotr or the sil --- or does he mention them being the "mightiest" in the sil?).

i tend to think that galadriel's one child is not meant to be in direct, philosophical or character-revealing contrast to feanor's seven children, but it's interesting to think of it that way. celebrian seems more like a plot device than a real child. "galadriel must have a child to pass on the bloodline" sort of thing.

also to ask -- i agree it's a big topic, but i'm not sure why you're asking to let it go for now.... were you planning on initiating a post on this topic yourself? is there something along these lines planned as a symposium paper or similar?


cheers --
.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


squire
Half-elven


Jul 28 2015, 3:33pm

Post #12 of 42 (4331 views)
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Not so much let it go, as retrieve it [In reply to] Can't Post

When I said it was a big topic and let it go, it's because I remembered how an earlier discussion on this had gone on for a surprising amount of time. But if anyone is interested here is one of the first original posts I put out to the Reading Room, both on topic and fairly big. I thought deeply before I could recall it to my mind.
'Was Tolkien afraid of Older Women?'

Remember that on the old server, the threads are archived with the responses listed from the bottom up; the first response to any post is at the bottom of the list. A little confusing.
I'm not sure I'd write this post the same way today, and almost none of the folks on the board back then are still here (Hi, Aunt Dora!), so putting it back in play for the next Symposium (aka Secondary Discussion) would seem like a great idea.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 28 2015, 4:37pm

Post #13 of 42 (4318 views)
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I will use a quote from Aunt Dora in that prior discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

as it echoes some of my own sentiments.


"It is curious that so many of the characters have lost their mothers, though. I suspect autobiography must have played an unconscious role in that."


I concur in this, as the function of the mother as a lifelong nurturer - because of his own loss - was something JRRT would have seen from the 'outside', as the father, in his own marriage, but not as the child. His own perceptions of motherhood stop as a firsthand perception very early in life, and I think the many lost mothers and conversely mothers who lose a child stem from this.


In addition, I think there is also the larger canvas to consider, in his mind. the conception of connecting his fantasy world with the real world via 'blood' and inheritance needs of course the mechanics of reproduction, and Elf and Human marriage: but to JRRT I think he desired the more refined, the more puissant picture of regal and almost courtly-type love, not mass interbreeding and a homely sort of inevitability of that union. I think it was important for him to keep it removed, narrowed and - in his own inherently and affectionately monarchist views - royal. This seems to dictate a need for smaller numbers: if Galadriel, whose line is the foremost Elven connect between the Firstborn and us, had 8 children say, I think that delicate connection of events becomes less unique. The one daughter of a single daughter in the person of Arwen as being the magic Elven Eve (or Mary, for that matter; but I think that is Galadriel's own spot in JRRT's heart) I think would ring more of a mythic bell with JRRT versus a large family of brothers and sisters all of whom may have wed humans, or spread that particular inheritance around Middle-earth to have it fade, versus the 'magic' of their sensibilities and their art being passed to us. Like the tale of the Ring itself, the enhancement of Us-as-man is a spider-web thin line of events, guided in part by the subtle hand of the Divine.


This fascinating question seems like it opens and perhaps answers many questions about Galadriel's changing nature in the legendarium.











(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 28 2015, 4:38pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 28 2015, 6:13pm

Post #14 of 42 (4304 views)
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Numbers [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
This seems to dictate a need for smaller numbers: if Galadriel, whose line is the foremost Elven connect between the Firstborn and us, had 8 children say, I think that delicate connection of events becomes less unique. The one daughter of a single daughter in the person of Arwen as being the magic Elven Eve (or Mary, for that matter; but I think that is Galadriel's own spot in JRRT's heart) I think would ring more of a mythic bell with JRRT versus a large family of brothers and sisters all of whom may have wed humans, or spread that particular inheritance around Middle-earth to have it fade, versus the 'magic' of their sensibilities and their art being passed to us.

Great point. I was thinking earlier about Luthien, and how she seems so special, but part of that depends on her being unique. There are fairy tales where the king has 3 lovely daughters, and the lucky prince gets to choose between them, but they don't seem so special then. What if Luthien had four brothers and four sisters? Her role seems diluted. Even if she were the only one to survive and marry a mortal, still, she doesn't seem the center of attention. Instead, as only child, she's this fascinating embodiment of Maia + Elf on the racial level, and on the geopolitical level, she seems to represent the best of Beleriand. I just wouldn't see her the same way if she had siblings.

And though it frustrates me as a reader to know so little about the sons of Elrond, it serves the purpose of keeping the focus on Arwen as Elrond's prized child and the unique progenitor of a new race of Men. What if Aragorn had seven brothers and Elrond had seven daughters and they all got married and had kids? That happens in old stories, but you lose the feeling that a lot is at stake and dependent on a couple of people.





CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 28 2015, 6:32pm

Post #15 of 42 (4301 views)
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What Galadriel is, and isn't [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
i have to force myself to think of arwen as galadriel's granddaughter, not just elrond's daughter.

Ditto! Even when Galadriel gives the Elessar to Aragorn, her little speech makes scant mention of both Celebrian and Arwen, and she seems more invested in Aragorn than her own granddaughter.


Quote
on one hand, though -- i do like the fact that galadriel is not +defined+ as mainly a mother. she's first "galadriel." which is refreshing, especially in works of earlier generations.

I do like this observation! And I heartily agree, which means you can't argue with me, unless you really try. Okay, go ahead. Tongue No, seriously, I think this is important, and it's why Galadriel has so many fans. She's not really a stock character: not the powerful and solitary sorceress in her tower, or the fierce warrior queen. Nor is she the pretty trophy wife, or the magical but essentially useless fairy wife, or the loving but impotent queen mother. She's none of the old stereotypes. I think she's defined in terms of power and principle foremost while remaining feminine. That may be why Tolkien, intentionally or not, downplayed her familial ties. It was maybe too easy to fall into the trap of her being the worried mom, or the loyal wife, or the family peacemaker, or whatever. She's the one who lays bare the pits of Dol Guldur--I so wish I was there to see that feat!! At the same time, Galadriel isn't the scheming woman trying to get ahead in a world of men who'll cut corners because she has to. There's just a lot of old tropes that she plain isn't, refreshingly.

If you compare her to Melian, think of how the latter was wiser and more powerful, but who didn't co-rule with Thingol, or effectively silence him the way Galadriel does with Celeborn. Melian advises the wise thing to do, Thingol ignores her, and she acts like his enabler. Melian was primarily a wife who didn't make waves (I never thought of her as much of a mother to Luthien in any role) and a soothsayer (who was ignored like Cassandra). Yes, she had a nice Girdle, but not much beyond that. I think with Melian, that was partly plot-driven: Beleriand was doomed by the plot to be overrun, so she couldn't be making all the right moves to save it, but she also somehow got stuck in the role of the queen who defers to her king against her better wisdom. Tolkien seemed to cut Galadriel from an entirely new bolt of cloth.


Eruonen
Half-elven


Jul 28 2015, 10:37pm

Post #16 of 42 (4280 views)
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Found this artwork of a pregnant Galadriel with Celeborn [In reply to] Can't Post

http://orig01.deviantart.net/..._age_by_moumou38.jpg

Galadriel and Celeborn 2nd Age by Moumou38

By the 3rd Age

In a fouler mood.....poor Celeborn....off the the ManTree
https://supersubtitled.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/galadriel.jpg

Celeborn, you forgot the eggs!
http://i4.photobucket.com/...enedhel/celemess.jpg
http://i4.ytimg.com/...3c/maxresdefault.jpg

Remember, we are happy! Smile.
http://www.lauramader.info/galadriel-celeborn.jpg


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jul 28 2015, 10:41pm)


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jul 28 2015, 11:06pm

Post #17 of 42 (4269 views)
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Elrond's children were unique it seems [In reply to] Can't Post

As they were actually born in the 3rd age! I have trouble of thinking of any other of the Elven kindred that were. In general, the 3rd age was one of decline for the Elves and not attempting anything new, but those of Elrond children were born in this age. Though very early on. And I suppose it is possible to be born of a species that is in decline. I might have some sympathies with that myself now that I think about it. At least in terms of my own nation. It's glory days seem to be behind it as far as I can tell! But those of Elrond's children did at least make a bold effort to at least influence Middle-Earth in the 3rd age.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 28 2015, 11:22pm

Post #18 of 42 (4264 views)
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Legolas? [In reply to] Can't Post

Legolas might have been born in the Third Age. Tolkien never specified and offered little in the way of clues. Sources related to the Peter Jackson films ascribe to Legolas the year of TA 87 for his birth.


I would assume that the Wood-elves (and the Avari of the East) would have gone on having children through the remainder of the Third Age and at least into the Fourth.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 28 2015, 11:26pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jul 29 2015, 12:36am

Post #19 of 42 (4249 views)
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melian, melian, melian... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
you know me and melian, cg. :)

i definitely have similar issues with melian as you do... .'tho ultimately i think her issues are more author-derived than character-derived. an unhappy state.

i will also offer this in defense of melian.... her union with thingol was one of very different beings (maia and elf) -- far more different than edain and elf. i wonder if it crossed thingol's mind any, when he was bonding with melian, if she had a father, and if that father would have approved of a suitor of a "lower" order. or if he might have thought of that again, when beren came to ask for luthien's hand. probably not.

melian is +so+ much wiser and more powerful. it's almost like she has to voluntarily give up a lot of her power and discretion, to try to compensate for the inequality. that inequality has always bothered me a bit. seems like a line an ainu should not cross. but i think tolkien was after the poetry -- the enriching of the race of the elves, and then (through arwen) the enriching of the race of the edain.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 29 2015, 1:16am

Post #20 of 42 (4240 views)
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I was thinking the Luthien angle as well, CG [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
I was thinking earlier about Luthien, and how she seems so special, but part of that depends on her being unique. There are fairy tales where the king has 3 lovely daughters, and the lucky prince gets to choose between them, but they don't seem so special then. What if Luthien had four brothers and four sisters? Her role seems diluted. Even if she were the only one to survive and marry a mortal, still, she doesn't seem the center of attention. Instead, as only child, she's this fascinating embodiment of Maia + Elf on the racial level, and on the geopolitical level, she seems to represent the best of Beleriand. I just wouldn't see her the same way if she had siblings.

And though it frustrates me as a reader to know so little about the sons of Elrond, it serves the purpose of keeping the focus on Arwen as Elrond's prized child and the unique progenitor of a new race of Men. What if Aragorn had seven brothers and Elrond had seven daughters and they all got married and had kids? That happens in old stories, but you lose the feeling that a lot is at stake and dependent on a couple of people.



Their singularity underlines their value I think. Is it in The Last Debate that Gandalf says many of those riding forward are of unique value as to equal 10,000 knights? I think that is a repeated theme in Tolkien, the humanizing and unique worth of an individual. So the narrowing by numbers of the characters may just underline this ideal?






















(This post was edited by Brethil on Jul 29 2015, 1:17am)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 29 2015, 5:15pm

Post #21 of 42 (4176 views)
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Yes, bringing up Melian is like pulling the Maciliel-tiger by the tail. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 29 2015, 5:20pm

Post #22 of 42 (4178 views)
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Worth of the individual [In reply to] Can't Post


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I think that is a repeated theme in Tolkien, the humanizing and unique worth of an individual. So the narrowing by numbers of the characters may just underline this ideal?

Great summary, Brethil. It makes me also think that for thematic reasons, it was probably important to Tolkien to NOT have all 9 members of the Fellowship reach the Crack of Doom together. Each had their individual role to play in the larger history of the war, but if they'd all been present when the Ring was thrown in (assuming Frodo was able to do it), there would have been 8 watchers and 1 doer. He seems to want his characters doing something that they alone can do (Merry vs the Nazgul, Pippin saving Faramir, Legolas shooting the Winged Messenger, etc).


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jul 29 2015, 10:16pm

Post #23 of 42 (4155 views)
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That depends [In reply to] Can't Post

Upon weather you think that the Legolas in Lotr was the same person as the Legolas in Gondolin in the extended fall of Gondolin. Tolkien did say something about Elves never having the same name as another Elves, but he might have forgotten about it or changed his mind in this case. Also, I think in the book Legolas says something about remembering the Ents when they were young, so I do have a feeling that Legolas was born before the 3rd age.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 30 2015, 11:16am

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Legolas x 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

If Legolas, the son of Thranduil, was the same Elf as Legolas of Gondolin then he would have had to have been born in the First Age, and that is far too early. He would almost certainly have fought alongside his father and grandfather at the Battle of Dagorlad and there is no indication that that was the case.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jul 30 2015, 1:02pm

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Legolas and Elvish naming customs [In reply to] Can't Post


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(That depends) Upon weather you think that the Legolas in Lotr was the same person as the Legolas in Gondolin in the extended fall of Gondolin.



Hmm, I find no reason to think Tolkien ever thought this however.

Legolas of Gondolin was one of the Noldoli (a Gnome with a Gnomish name), and Legolas of Mirkwood was a Silvan Elf (whose name was reinterpreted to be Silvan in form) who when we meet him had yet to see the Sea.

I think one would have to invent a too particular history to try to keep Legolas, if from broken Beleriand, from being near the Sea at any point before we meet him in The Lord of the Rings.


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Tolkien did say something about Elves never having the same name as another Elves, but he might have forgotten about it or changed his mind in this case.



Tolkien did not say this as far as I know, and in The Lord of the Rings for example, he had actually referred to two seemingly different Elves named Rumil. Also, from The Shibboleth of Feanor:

"Arakano was the tallest of the brothers and the most impetuous, but his name was never changed to Sindarin form, for he perished in the first battle of Fingolfin's host with the Orks, the Battle of the Lammoth (but the Sindarin form Argon was often later given as a name by Noldor and Sindar in memory of his valour)"

With respect to the Noldorin Chosen-name (in which point, maybe, the Noldor differed from the other Eldar), Laws And Customs Among The Eldar notes that in elder times the Chosen-name or second name was usually freshly devised. In later ages, when there was a great abundance of names already in existence, "... it was more often selected from names that were known. But even so some modification of the old name might be made."

But in any case, that is in reference to the Noldorin Chosen-name specifically, which the Noldor regarded as their personal property. Not all names. There is also some uncertainty as to whether or not Tolkien even retained this idea, since in a later text on Elvish naming this type of name is not mentioned.

And in the very late Glorfindel texts, Tolkien seemed to think that some names should not be repeated, including Glorfindel, but others of a certain form could: '... but the name [Galdor] is of a more simple and usual form [than Glorfindel] and might be repeated'.

Also once Legolas became the Silvan form, Laegolas became the pure Sindarin form. So the Silvan dialectal form Legolas for an Elf from Gondolin doesn't seem to fit, and one would arguably have to explain that too.


Not impossible hurdles perhaps, but the questions begin to pile up in my opinion.

I think here we rather have Tolkien simply borrowing names from his old tales (Gimli was also an Elf in the early Fall of Gondolin), even if the matter of Glorfindel became more than that (but for this matter we have ample evidence that JRRT considered him the same Elf).

Glorfindel began as a Gnome, or one of the Noldoli, too (all the Elves of Gondolin were Gnomes in the early version), and ended up being an Exiled Noldo. His name was originally Gnomish and JRRT seems to have had a bit of a problem when it had to be considered Sindarin, due to the much later, very changed, linguistic scenario.

Glorfindel is maybe to be seen as archaic in form, in a Sindarin context.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jul 30 2015, 1:17pm)

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