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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The fate of Tauriel, Radagast and Alfrid: what will happen to them?
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Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 27 2015, 6:40pm

Post #26 of 36 (716 views)
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LOL realism [In reply to] Can't Post


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Likewise, in the extended (alternate?) footage of Bilbo's departure, it is seemingly Spring (or close to it). The ice in the river is melted and it seems that Winter is past, indicating that Gandalf and Bilbo must have wintered in Erebor (probably not Dale as it is still in ruins at this time).

My head always blurs that bit - which, actually, I would like to see, back to the old posts about how the waters around Erebor suddenly get so highUnsure - so how that happens, exactly. I am rooting for the dwarves blowing something up.Cool

The rest - e.g. the last shots of Bilbo and Gandalf - I just put down vaguely to a visual difference being shown between the harsher, higher elevation = colder east and the "kindly west"...also my other books (not Tolkien) and so on, when a king falls, it's "long live the king" pretty fast, and re the TE BOFA it just felt like Bilbo left fairly soon - plus he is upset when he leaves. Not saying he wouldn't have been upset anyway, but it just didn't feel like he stayed after the battle that long.


Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 27 2015, 6:46pm

Post #27 of 36 (716 views)
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Of course - love Beorn! [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't want to see Beorn being hurt - but I imagine it's a scene that is NOT going to go on and on - if there is one...and for me it would segue into the later DOS scene w. the dwarves, where MP is so wonderful. I think Radagast HAS been shown already to be brave, going into DG and all, but it would be nice to see a bit more - after all, he IS an Istari.

But for me it would be nice to see more of Beorn in battle - I suppose it's too much to hope for, that it's Beorn who brings Thorin back to Erebor as a nod back to the book.Unsure


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 27 2015, 8:01pm

Post #28 of 36 (684 views)
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I'm still not sure about the end. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The rest - e.g. the last shots of Bilbo and Gandalf - I just put down vaguely to a visual difference being shown between the harsher, higher elevation = colder east and the "kindly west"...also my other books (not Tolkien) and so on, when a king falls, it's "long live the king" pretty fast, and re the TE BOFA it just felt like Bilbo left fairly soon - plus he is upset when he leaves. Not saying he wouldn't have been upset anyway, but it just didn't feel like he stayed after the battle that long.




Well, I assumed while watching the theatrical cut that Gandalf and Bilbo left Erebor within days of the Battle of Five Armies. Now I am not so sure. We should have a better idea once TH:BotFA-EE is actually released. We will also have the commentary track for additional details and insights.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


DainPig
Gondor


Jul 27 2015, 11:49pm

Post #29 of 36 (658 views)
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Radagast - no staff, no wizard [In reply to] Can't Post

Probably we will see Radagast leaving the west of Middearth, or something. I do not know.

But if Radagast have not a staff, how will he fight the orcs???

How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???

Hey guys, my blog is: dainpigblog.blogspot.com


Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 28 2015, 12:28am

Post #30 of 36 (652 views)
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Well, had to do a quick look-up on wizard staffs.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Because while I can see a wizard channeling power through a staff and its symbolism, I would think being an Istari means innate power. Gandlalf seems to simply use power and channel that through his hands when healing, for instance.

From: http://www.quora.com/...f-the-Istaris-staffs


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Tolkien, to his credit, tends to avoid overt uses magic and Istari power in LotR in particular is usually invoked quite subtly. Even Saruman, in the madness of his power lust, never resorts to wantonly flinging magic missiles like a D&D wizard. Sure, this is in part due to the mandate of Manwe, but it's also down to Tolkien's narrative decisions to limit the wild application of magic to the plot. As a result, wizard staves may simply be symbolic props. Gandalf will often use his staff for dramatic effect, but whatever power he is invoking never clearly comes directly from his staff.

At Edoras, Wormtongue curses Hama for not stripping Gandalf of his staff, but it's not as if the Wizard battled the Balrog as a chump when his staff broke at the bridge of Khazad-dum. Even then, the only thing Gandalf's staff seems to do at Edoras is point:

'Now Théoden son of Thengel, will you hearken to me?' said Gandalf. 'Do you ask for help?' He lifted his staff and pointed to a high window. There the darkness seemed to clear, and through the opening could be seen, high and far, a patch of shining sky.

It's not certain if Wormtongue is really a good source of arcane lore either as this is the same genius who literally throws the palantir out the window. Even Saruman seems to wield some power after being diminished and having his staff broken by Gandalf. Yet obviously Saruman's ability to wield magic was diminished even before being cast out of Orthanc which leads us to believe that a wizard's will or strength of character is far more important to his abilities than a mere staff.

So what then is the importance of Istari staves? It seems that they are a sign of good standing within the order of wizards, with the Valar, or even of the wizard's own self-esteem. To get to a point where a wizard's staff is broken, he's likely to be broken in spirit too. But simply breaking a staff in the course of duties--Khazad-dum--does not seem to signify any such magical infirmity at all.

***********************************************************

The Istari use their staves as devices for channeling their powers. Although their staves are important (Gandalf takes care to break Saruman's staff as he casts him out of the White Council), they still could exercise their powers without them -- Saruman retained the power of his voice and Gandalf was able to slay the Balrog of Moria after their respective staves were broken.



E.g., staff or no staff, I think an Istari could deal with the average orc, and possibly craft a new staff, as Radagast's looks so "natural" and organic, like something he made himself.


Bernhardina
Rohan


Jul 28 2015, 1:45pm

Post #31 of 36 (605 views)
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Hmm [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't think we would still be debating Tauriels potential fate at this time before I watched BoFA. It says a lot about how flawed the conclusion of this trilogy is at the moment.


I really don't think Tauriel will die of grief. That's just too dark for a childrens film. My guess is that she will return to the Woodland realm with Thranduil and Legolas and we never hear from her again. It certainly sucks, but I don't think we should have too much hope about this. I wanted another ending for her, didn't want her dead but I wanted her to find happiness somehow after Kili's death. I wanted a scene where we would see how she would be moving on.


About Radagast, surely there must be something in the EE. His absence in LOTR does not make any sense at this moment. They don't even mention him in the first trilogy, PJ cannot ignore that!


I was hoping they would let Alfrid redeem himself somehow, but that didn't happen and I cannot see it happen in the EE, especially when we know PJ filmed his death-scene. I just hope it isn't as silly as I fear!



Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 28 2015, 2:45pm

Post #32 of 36 (586 views)
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On Radagast in LOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm never sure why his absence from the LOTR films would need some specific explanation - any more than that of Beorn, or the Laketowners. The narrative in LOTR doesn't travel to their locations.

Similarly, I can't think that the reader asks for any explanation of his absence from the following books (TTT and ROTK). He turns up in FOTR, isn't home when Elrond's scouts visit and we hear no more about him.

I think, unless the plot of LOTR suggested there was an obvious situation we would expect to see him in (visiting Mirkwood, say), that I don't think the question is prompted.


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Jul 28 2015, 4:50pm

Post #33 of 36 (569 views)
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Tauriel's fate. [In reply to] Can't Post

Up until the not too distant past, desertion from an army would be rewarded with execution. As an officer, she might be given the courtesy of being allowed to quietly do away with herself before having to suffer the disgrace of trial and execution. However, having compounded the crime with an act of treason - physically threatening the King - and this occurring during a battle, I would expect a summary field execution to be carried out. As an ordinary soldier, and not a member of the aristocracy or royal family, some severe measure would need to be taken, particularly in such a well drilled and disciplined army. A soldier who doesn't obey orders risks the lives of their companions and Thranduil would be showing disrespect for his troops if he didn't act. However, from what I remember of Tolkien's elves, (not that Tauriel has anything to do with those), they are unlikely to want to kill each other. I suspect the best solution would be to send her into the West. Failing that, punitive banishment.

As for Alfrid, who cares. And Radagast, having managed to appear in the wrong story, and failed to turn up in the right one, should be given extended 'gardening leave', as they say in the corporate world, during which time he will consider his future - probably resulting in early retirement.

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 28 2015, 8:28pm

Post #34 of 36 (546 views)
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Elves being ineffable??? [In reply to] Can't Post

LOL "gardening leave"LaughLaughLaugh


http://lawyernovelist.tumblr.com/...y-sue-part-2-lack-of


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but while I’m on the subject of Tauriel not having to make a difficult choice, she’s spared from having to actually fight Thranduil even to defend herself; Legolas comes in right in the nick of time. So at no point does Tauriel have to raise a hand to one of her former comrades or her king. Her bluff is never called.
The narrative bends over backward in this scene to ensure that at no point does Tauriel have to do something wrong.
Now back to Thranduil. Remember how in the Banishment scene I said that nobody ever accuses Tauriel of a crime? It happens again here. I talk a lot about how Thranduil is yelling at Tauriel over her love life rather than the significantly more important matter of high treason. But you know what that means that I’ve never pointed out before?
He’s shouting at her for falling in love across racial lines, which makes him unreasonable and an *-------------* because she hasn’t done anything wrong by falling in love with a dwarf. As in the Banishment scene, she’s being unfairly mistreated. He is not shouting at her for the thing she’s done which was wrong. As a result, she faces no consequences for the desertion, disobedience of orders, incitement to desert, and high treason that she has committed, and the fact that all those things were wrong is quickly swept out of the audience’s view without comment.
And then here comes Legolas to save the day and let Thranduil know to his face that Tauriel’s better than him.



You may or may not agree with this writer (I disagree with some of the thoughts and interpretations), but IMO it does make you think and some of it's funny (- and to be fair, the Tauriel character has a positive fan base too, with a differing opinion than this writer.)
Anyway, I would ask, re *precious* EE time - still longing for the unfinished dwarf/Thranduil footage - how much more time should be spent where either there doesn't SEEM to be overwhelming interest (based on a fast Internet search) and/or apparent irritation for time already allotted for said characters, or where any "loose end" - IMO Tauriel is predictable (I would take a bet that she simply returns with Thranduil to Mirkwood since he forgave/softened with her, or a shorter version simply is standing around re the funeral w. Thranduil). If the TE which allotted plenty of time for Alfrid and Tauriel didn't enthrall the audience then, more of the characters in an EE is not helpful - Radagast IMO might need some filling details, perhaps - and IMO having spent so much time on Tauriel mourning in the TE, she's been robbed of any meaningful depiction of mourning later without it becoming overdone. If she's even at the funeral, which is a concept I still find troublesome but that's another thread.

IMO Beorn, Thranduil, Dain, dwarves and even the armies need more screen timeUnsure Tho as has been discussed before, any number of fans will buy the EE anyway. Because it's the EE.Unimpressed
I wonder if there will be any of this.......Shocked

http://lotr.wikia.com/...l#cite_note-return-8


Quote

and Thranduil received the emeralds of Girion. Bilbo, Gandalf and Beorn traveled with the elf-host back to Mirkwood but would not stay in the woods, even when Thranduil asked them to.[9]
When Bilbo and Gandalf bade farewell, Bilbo gave Thranduil a necklace of silver and pearls. The king gave Bilbo the title of "elf-friend" and returned with his host in their halls.[9]
War of the Ring
During the War of the Ring, he sent his son Legolas to Rivendell, along with other Elves, to report Gollum's escape from Mirkwood.[3] The gradually-established friendship between the dwarf Gimli and Legolas later helped to reconcile Thranduil's people with the Dwarves.
When the forces from Dol Guldur later attacked Mirkwood, Thranduil repulsed an attack and had the victory. His actions were in concert with the Dwarves and the Men of Dale against the Easterlings who attacked from the East. He came into an agreement with Celeborn that the southern part of Mirkwood would be counted as East Lórien. Thranduil took the northern region as far as the mountains; the wide forest between Mirkwood and East Lórien was given to the Beornings. By this time also, Thranduil renamed Mirkwood Eryn Lasgalen, the Wood of Greenleaves.[10]
Fourth Age
After the fall of Sauron, Thranduil fixed the southern boundary of his realm as the Mountains of Mirkwood, and his realm flourished well into the Fourth Age.[10] He may have stayed on as the king of the Great Forest or left Middle-earth and departed to the Undying Lands.



Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu






Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Jul 30 2015, 5:14pm

Post #35 of 36 (480 views)
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I hadn't realised, [In reply to] Can't Post

until reading that article, just how completely rubbish Tauriel is as a soldier. Her abandoning Legolas - her superior - in the middle of a battle against a larger enemy force was something that slipped by me when I saw it on screen. Given her general uselessness at her job, I would expect that her role in FOTR was to be in charge of guarding Gollum, which explains how he escaped so easily - she was probably off doing something else that she deemed far more important at the time.

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


mirkwoodwanderer
Lorien

Aug 1 2015, 8:31pm

Post #36 of 36 (426 views)
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Radagast might marry with Tauriel and they adopt Alfred [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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