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Goldeneye
Lorien
Jul 24 2015, 5:36pm
Post #1 of 40
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Who would you cast as Thorin if Richard Armitage didn't take the part?
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This is a loaded question, I'll admit. I liked Richard's performance in the Hobbit, but IMO he was too young for the part. I understand they wanted to make Thorin sort of a "replacement Aragorn" type character, but it bothered me that he was supposed to be nearly 200 years old but had barely aged a day since Erebor was sacked. Plus Balin in the books is actually younger than he is, but in the film he looks twice as old?
Anyways, I digress. Let's pretend Richard Armitage either wasn't offered the part or turned it down. Let's actually imagine there is no Richard Armitage for the sake of discussion. Who would be YOUR perfect Thorin?
To me, the best actor to portray Thorin Oakenshield as he was in the book, yet still manage to do the physical acting required for action scenes, would have to be Stephen Dillane. Aka Stannis Baratheon from Game of Thrones. He's just the right age, would look awesome with a full grey beard, and most importantly could pull off Thorin's personality perfectly.
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Elanor of Rohan
Lorien
Jul 24 2015, 5:51pm
Post #2 of 40
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before judging about somthing more than visual aestetics.
Being not the hugest of fans of Stannis' (book Stannis included) i am not especially drawn to this actor.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 24 2015, 6:49pm
Post #3 of 40
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It would depend how the part was written....
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..and how the actors performed it. You can't tell that just from photographs.
Tthere was an expectation that Richard Armitage might be cast as Bard, and on looks that sounded about right. No one expected him to get Thorin - yet he did, and was amazing. I reckon Peter Jackson knows more about casting actors for his films than I do, and in this case I don't think his casting could be beaten.
I've never heard of your man but on age alone I can't see that he'd be that different. He's still a whole lot younger than Thorin is in the book!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 24 2015, 7:13pm
Post #4 of 40
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Well, Thorin was younger in the films.
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Peter Jackson's conceit (one of many) was that Thorin Oakenshield (and presumably his two siblings) was younger in the film trilogy and Smaug's assault on Erebor came in a later year. There is perhaps a thirty-year difference between book and movies. So, instead of being about 195 years old, he might have been around 165. Since Tolkien's Dwarves didn't generally wed until they reached their hundredth year, Thorin's film appearance does not seem so much at odds (the size and length of his beard notwithstanding). And Jackson emphasized Thorin's warrior nature far more than did Professor Tolkien.
I'm having trouble imagining another actor for Thorin. If I had a preference before the casting of Richard Armitage was announced then I've quite forgotten it. Maybe Bob Hoskins, if his health had been up to it. Of course, he passed away in 2014.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 24 2015, 7:13pm)
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Jul 24 2015, 8:07pm
Post #5 of 40
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He's about 15 years older than Richard Armitage (mid 50's I believe). His portrayal of Stannis in Game of Thrones shows a good mix of Thorin's qualities...bold, arrogant, dour, yet also honorable. But of course, if Peter Jackson & Co were looking for more of a handsome, rugged Aragorn-type of actor from the start, I suppose Armitage was right for that. I'm simply contesting that initial decision to stray from the book version of Thorin.
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Elutherian
Rohan
Jul 24 2015, 8:23pm
Post #6 of 40
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Dillane would've made a fantastic Denethor...
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... Not that John Noble wasn't.
Chaos isn't a pit, chaos is a ladder.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 24 2015, 9:51pm
Post #7 of 40
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I've never seen your man act....
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...so for all I know he might be brilliant. Or terrible, I'm not in a position to judge.
But he doesn't look any more like Thorin in the book than Richard Armitage. After all, what does Thorin look like in the book? So far as I remember Tolkien doesn't describe his facial features, we only know age, beard, details of clothing. There's a John Howe illustration (pre film) that looks very like Richard Armitage - who did convey bold, arrogant dour and honourable pretty well.
And if we're looking at someone to play a non-human who's about 200 years old, give or take, a 15 year difference in actor's ages doesn't seem significant to me. Point is, whoever played Thorin would need prosthetics, make-up and costume to make him a credible dwarf, and that would include ageing. They did age Richard Armitage quite a lot, both from his own age and between the AUJ Prologue and the main action.
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Jul 24 2015, 10:25pm
Post #8 of 40
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Well I wouldn't call him my "man," lol. We aren't going steady or taking windy walks in the park together. But he is a fan favorite on Game of Thrones (or was, up until some of his recent activities this past season). You should check the show out...it is heavily influenced by Tolkien and the production value/acting/writing is superb.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jul 24 2015, 10:47pm
Post #9 of 40
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However, he certainly doesn't look like a Thorin to me.
Personally, I couldn't imagine anyone else apart from Richard Armitage in the role.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jul 24 2015, 11:24pm
Post #10 of 40
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Loved Dillane as Stannis Baratheon...
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...and Dillane plays the part of cold calculating military commander very well...however I don't think he looks boorish enough for Thorin. I wouldn't have picked Armitage either, for that matter - Armitage was a bit too lanky and young for the role (IMO), and again, did not look boorish enough. I'd have picked someone older and more heavyset, maybe like Dillane's TV brother Mark Addy (who played King Robert Baratheon). I'd heard Ian McShane's name thrown around in the beginning, I thought he might have made a good Thorin.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jul 24 2015, 11:26pm)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 24 2015, 11:36pm
Post #11 of 40
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I've never seen GoT, so I don't know about this guy. Can you suggest something else he's done?
I don't think they necessarily wanted a "replacement Aragorn," the explanation they gave for making Thorin younger was so he could believably do the fight scenes. So, just for grins, what actor have I seen that 1. is older, 2. a reasonably good actor, and 3. can still do believable fight scenes. And the answer I've come up with IS:
Brian Cox. He played Agamemnon in "Troy," more recently was in "RED", "RED2", and the remake of "Planet of the Apes." He's a little heavy & would have to firm up, but I can see him with longer grey hair & beard.
Not that I want anyone but Richard to play the part  Sorry, fangirl here
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jul 24 2015, 11:44pm
Post #12 of 40
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...was that the audience needed to believe that Thorin had a long reign ahead of him, and therefore would have rooted for him more. I heard one of the writers say that the audience wouldn't have been as invested in a Thorin that looked like he only had a few years left. Which I don't agree with at all.
I also completely disagree with their notion that the Durin's had to look more human in order for the audience to better sympathize with them, but that's another topic entirely.
Just a question though...why do you think this actor would've needed to firm up for the role of Thorin? Dwarves are supposed to be stocky.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jul 24 2015, 11:46pm)
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jul 24 2015, 11:45pm
Post #13 of 40
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For a long time, Brian Cox was the "fan favorite" when everyone was speculating about the cast, and I think we could have done a great job. Martin Freeman was also one of the fan favorites back in the day.
Even now after the movies are over, I still can't believe how lucky we are that we got Martin Freeman as Bilbo. Fans were pointing to him almost as soon as RotK was released, and somehow we got what we wanted as those years later.
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Pandallo
Rivendell
Jul 24 2015, 11:51pm
Post #14 of 40
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I don't think it would have worked for that reason and also the connection between Bilbo and Thorin. Would the relationship have been as powerful if it was more akin to a tutor-student relationship (as an older Thorin would be presented, too similar in my opinion to Bilbo and Gandalf's relationship). There would be a disconnect that couldn't be accomplished with an older actor I feel.
Placing Thorin and Bilbo at roughly the same relative age allowed them to treat each other more as equals instead of a lordly aged Thorin towering over Bilbo. Granted Thorin does lord over Bilbo for much of the first movie, but from then on there is a sense that he trusts Bilbo and Bilbo trusts him
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jul 25 2015, 12:03am
Post #15 of 40
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I never really bought their whole "friendship" though...
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The movie attempted to portray Thorin and Bilbo as much closer than they were in the book, towards the end, anyway. But throughout the first movie, Thorin showed nothing but disdain for Bilbo (except for the ridiculous part where he let his entire company be captured and tied up by Trolls). The second movie, Thorin seemed to respect Bilbo a bit more, but did not seem particularly close with him, and then even held him at sword-point in Erebor. And then in the third movie, all of a sudden Bilbo is Thorin's closest confident? (Of course, up until the Arkenstone incident). I just don't think the films included enough friendly moments between the two of them for me to buy that they somehow became very close friends by the end.
But they weren't really ever meant to be close friends, Thorin simply learned to respect Bilbo's skills at getting out of jams. And then a dying Thorin apologizes to Bilbo for nearly killing him in a fit of rage. Could have worked just like it did in the book. without any half-baked attempt to make the audience believe they were close friends..
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jul 25 2015, 12:05am)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 25 2015, 12:04am
Post #16 of 40
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I had assume Thorin would be like Theoden!
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Which, actually, IMO, with prosthetics RA isn't that far off the TYPE of - what I mean is I pictured a strong older man, definitely "kingly", "Shakespeare-ian", I am actually picturing Oliver Reed when he did the 3/4 Musketeers and even Gladiator - anyway, someone like that.
And I just can't think of any actor off the top of my head, at the moment. LOL - Sean Bean again, but older? Russell Crowe, Ian McShane?
But yah know, re:
but it bothered me that he was supposed to be nearly 200 years old but had barely aged a day since Erebor was sacked. Plus Balin in the books is actually younger than he is, but in the film he looks twice as old?
for my part, I was thinking last time I watched the DOS EE how well the young Thorin:
vs. the older Thorin had gone, e.g., for RA this "age arc" worked beautifully:
Not too much or too little, just right for this long-lived race (and Richard is too good an actor not to make it work, that EE scene with Thrain is wonderful). And too, LOL, I know Richard WAS the youngest of the actors that read for Thorin, and it's intriguing to think of who else was in the pool, but I have often sighed with relief that Richard was chosen - otherwise one of my favorite moments wouldn't have been able to be filmed - another actor might have just fallen over.....
For me, anyway, it's just *traumatic* to think of another Thorin . Richard was just too incandescent, charismatic, and brought too much to the table...for me, from thinking about just another grizzled warrior who happened to be a dwarf (or so I thought it would be) to this wildly rich and moving, multi-depth characterization - a hundred times over what I thought I would see.
Someday someone is going to re-do the Hobbit, but I really wouldn't want to be the actor following Richard - not for a very long time. Or Martin Freeman's Bilbo or Ian Mckellan's Gandlalf or Ken Stott's Balin....
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 25 2015, 12:26am
Post #18 of 40
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I never read that before - I read that Ian McShane was the choice, but maybe that's just one very zealous fan.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jul 25 2015, 6:42am
Post #19 of 40
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I think there were rumors that Ian McShane was one of Guillermo del Toro's first picks for Thorin.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 25 2015, 8:30am
Post #20 of 40
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Game of Thrones isn't shown on UK terrestrial TV...
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... only on satellite which I don't have. But I don't think the series would be for me. I've tried reading the novels and found the style unreadable and the attitude unsympathetic - and from what I've picked up along the way about the storylines I can't see any Tolkien influence at all. There is a lot of darkness in Tolkien and a lot of things that go wrong, or fail to achieve their promise - a lot of 'fighting the long defeat'. But there is always that sense of the star beyond the darkness, the beauty no evil can touch and the hope beyond hope - that's the emotional core that holds me, and I think a lot of other people too, to Tolkien's mythology. Everything I've seen of Game of Thrones suggests a denial of that central core. I know a lot of people enjoy it and that's fine, but it's not for me.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jul 25 2015, 9:07am
Post #21 of 40
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I can only ever see McShane as a shady antique dealer. I'm afraid his acting is really so-so – unlike that of Richard Armitage. No – I'm very satisfied with what we got.
The other individual some were referring to was Brian Blessed – someone who I thought was dead and never see nowadays. I'd have thought he'd be wrong for the role even in his younger days – far too rollicking and rumbustious a character to play the part of a grim Thorin, in my view.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 25 2015, 12:21pm
Post #22 of 40
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Ian McShane was fine as Lovejoy but that's about it.
I think Richard Armitage was an inspired piece of casting.
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Macfeast
Rohan
Jul 25 2015, 1:07pm
Post #23 of 40
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If another actor had fallen over...
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... then they would just have had to do another take.
It should be noted that half of the company of dwarven actors are aged at 50 or above - the designated badass warrior Graham McTavish included, and John Callen pushing retirement age at the beginning of filming - and they seem to have managed to cope with the physical demands of the job. Bernard Hill was pushing 60 at the time of LOTR, yet I would never even begin to consider questioning Théoden's believability as a warrior and a leader.
If given ample opportunity to prepare, then I think that a very reasonable number of serious, dedicated actors between 50 and 60 at the level of acting skill that we're looking for would have been able to keep up on a physical level, unless there was a prior injury or something of its like that might have gotten in the way. Filmmaking at this level, in this AAA-market, requires some degree of physical conditioning, and I think that many of the older actors considered for the role of Thorin would be aware of it, and would be able to prepare themselves for the task.
The area where I could see things being noticeably different, would be the combat, and the style of fighting employed. I imagine that for an older actor, the fighting would look closer to what we got out of Gimli than what we got out of Thorin... which, in my eyes, doesn't at all seem inappropriate; The pirouettes and the twirling are a better fit for elves than they are for dwarves, in my mind, and dwarves are better suited for less flash, and more straight up power.
Going back to the original question, I do like your suggestion of Oliver Reed (though unfortunately that was never a realistic possibility). I only know of him from Gladiator, but having just rewatched one of his speeches from that film, I can make out Thorin-esque qualities; Slightly pompous and important, capable of delivering great speeches and grabbing your attention, yet also possessing that imposing and determined persona that could believably be in command. Oliver Reed at the time of Gladiator (who would have been an equal in age to John Rhys-Davies and Bernard Hill at the time of LOTR, just for reference), I can see him as Thorin.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Jul 25 2015, 1:16pm)
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Jul 25 2015, 2:13pm
Post #24 of 40
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I'll have to use that line sometime, ha.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 25 2015, 3:39pm
Post #25 of 40
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*Bows* and in no way was I.....
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impugning the very real physical abilities of many, many in their 50s and 60s - no ageism from me (along with the people I know who practice martial arts OMG) and so on....
For me the vague term "older" means 70 + I guess, and I associate that "human age" with the book dwarf Thorin description - that's all muddled together. So when Phillipa talks about the part being physically demanding and then there's a shot of Thorin handling the heavy Orcrist - well, yes, I can see, someone in their 70s + I think may have had some problems - and I am not being snarky here, just thinking of my own relations. 
(Graham McTavish is just awesome IMO, LOL when he breaks stuff and chips the hidden door in the Appendices ).
*Sigh* Oliver Reed - try catching a scene of him in the Four Musketeers sometime - where he is confronting the evil Milady and says "since when has it been possible to insult you, Madam..." and then pulls a pistol out - yes, I think he would have been a great Thorin...
On my side of the pond, I just can't think of anyone - and I imagine there are many, many European actors I know nothing about who would have been - and possibly were - viable candidates.
Interesting question because one day, the Hobbit will be remade and someone is going to have the terrifying task of casting.
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