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Why do the elves have pointy ears?

noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 22 2015, 5:04pm

Post #1 of 12 (2001 views)
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Why do the elves have pointy ears? Can't Post

Where does all this pointy-ear thing come from?

A contributor to TVTropes suggests:

Quote
J. R. R. Tolkien's hobbits have slightly pointed ears (described as such in a letter to an illustrator, but never in the narrative). On the other hand, his Elves' ears are only ever wrote about once, calling them "leaf-shaped" in a posthumously published glossary of Noldorin tongue. This is essentially the origin of the entire "pointy-eared elf" meme in modern fantasy; "leaf-shaped" is generally interpreted as "pointy".

http://tvtropes.org/....php/Main/PointyEars (look in the "Literature bit under the main article)


But maybe it's not something Tolkien invented - this 1913 Arthur Rackham illustration (for the poem The Man in the Wilderness from Mother Goose) shows a creature with pointy ears:

(http://art.ayay.co.uk/...n-in-the-wilderness/ )
Whether it's an 'elf' etc. isn't explicit, but pointy ears for sure! (Also - nice trees.)

Any ideas?


SmileOr is it
Q: Why do the elves have pointy ears?
A: Because Captain Kirk won't pay the ransom?Wink

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

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squire
Half-elven


Jul 22 2015, 5:31pm

Post #2 of 12 (1971 views)
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It wasn't Tolkien's invention [In reply to] Can't Post

As your Rackham illustration shows, pointy ears on elvish folk seems to originate in Victorian times. When Tolkien asked his illustrators to give hobbits and elves 'leaf-shaped' ears, I have always imagined he was simply agreeing with an existing convention rather than being particularly original.

I also can't believe JRRT is responsible for the look that is now pretty much locked into the modern Fantasy industry. Illustrations of Tolkien's stories weren't known widely until the 1970s calendar series began, and I should have thought that illustrators long before that were continuing the Victorian precedent. Look at Disney, for instance, not to mention the Keebler Elves who date from 1968.

I never liked that Tolkien's Elves (not to mention Hobbits) had pointy ears although I have been forced to concede the point by being shown his letters! I joked once on TORn that since Elves and Men intermarry in the tales, there must have been a term among lesser men to refer to the "King's Ear", i.e., all the pointy or semi-pointy ears on those Men of Numenorean blood!



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jul 22 2015, 8:05pm

Post #3 of 12 (1950 views)
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Tolkien took this pointy-ness to another level [In reply to] Can't Post

as the forenames of MANY Hobbits (most especially of the Baggins family-tree) hint at a leaf-shaped, flowery, or vegetative pointedness.

Laura (Grubb)- Laura mongrelized from the laurel, a tree of genus laurus, with glossy and large leaves. She had overly large auricles.

Mungo (Baggins)- was named after the mungo, a rubiaceous plant of the madder family, with small drooping flowers.

Pansy and Lily (sisters of Mungo).

Berylla (Boffin)- mother of Mungo, Pansy, and Lily. Berylla was not taken from vegetation but from the chemical element beryllium and the solid berylloid, and her ears had the shape of two twelve-sided pyramids base to base. (Quite to the point.) Sly

Lobelia (SB)- (Born a Bracegirdle, alas for me! – Unsure.) A play-on-words by Tolkien: LOBE-lia, as she had pointy somewhat disfigured LOBES.

Other possibly pointy (or vegetative) forenames:
Angelica (Baggins)- angelica from the family Apiaceae
Milo (Burrows)- from the “milo maize”, a tall succulent sorghum
Myrtle and Minto (Burrows)- offspring of Milo.
Belladonna (Took)- (Quenya: Bellus Domina, “ears of Godlike beauty” (if slightly pointed)).
Linda- from the linden tree
Mention to: Peony, Poppy, Rosa, Pansy, Lily, Daisy

Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
-JRR Tolkien


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 22 2015, 8:54pm

Post #4 of 12 (1943 views)
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Your subject line sounds like a Middle-earth Conspiracy Theory [In reply to] Can't Post

So I think they had pointy ears because they needed them to open tin cans before Feanor invented the can opener.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 22 2015, 9:11pm

Post #5 of 12 (1946 views)
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Why do the elves have pointy ears? [In reply to] Can't Post

So they can have sharp hearing.


* ba-da-bum *

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 22 2015, 9:12pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 23 2015, 12:11am

Post #6 of 12 (1904 views)
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ROFL!! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 23 2015, 1:49am

Post #7 of 12 (1897 views)
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You're on fire this week, O-S! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 









Elthir
Grey Havens

Jul 23 2015, 4:03pm

Post #8 of 12 (1828 views)
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I'm not sure Tolkien's Elves necessarily have more pointed ears than Men [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I never liked that Tolkien's Elves (not to mention Hobbits) had pointy ears although I have been forced to concede the point by being shown his letters!



I would agree that Tolkien's early letter (about Hobbits) and early etymological entry (about Elvish leaf and ear words) illustrate that in the later 1930s (noting the date of both of these sources) the Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf shaped than human ears.

That said, I would also agree that in The Book of Lost Tales the Noldoli were really quite short (not the towering Elves they would later become), or that it wasn't until relatively late that Tolkien's Quendi were "no longer" reincarnated by being born again, and having different parents.

So what about Elvish ears in the 1950s and later?

As the first post in this thread might illustrate, Etymologies seems to be the "slam dunk" text that people go to about Quendian Ears. It's a linguistic document which includes a look at words hailing from the bases LAS (here LAS1 and LAS2). This is an "early-ish" text however (note we have "Noldorin" not yet Sindarin, for instance), and ultimately abandoned.

And after The Lord of the Rings was published Tolkien, in Words Phrases and Passages, once again looks at both leaf and ear words (the bases in question now include SLAS). I note that the earlier direct statement about Quendian ears is missing by comparison (to Etymologies).

The Etymologies entry seems far more well known than the one in Words, Phrases and Passages entry. I'll post them both.



Quote

Etymologies (old)

LAS1- *lasse leaf: Q lasse, N lhass; Q lasselanta leaf-fall, autumn, N lhasbelin (*lassekweene), cf. Q Narquelion [KWEL]. Lhasgalen Greenleaf (Gnome name of Laurelin). (Some think this is related to the next and *lasse ear. The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Human).

LAS2- 'listen'. N lhaw 'ears' (of one person), old dual *lasu -whence singular lhewig. Q lar, lasta- 'listen'; lasta 'listening, hearing' - Lastalaika 'sharp-ears', a name, cf. N Lhathleg. N lhathron 'hearer, listener, eavesdropper' ( *la(n)sro-ndo ); lhathro or lhathrando 'listen in, eavesdrop'.



As we see, the direct statement comes at the end of LAS1 (leaf words), explaining the matter (seemingly, why "some think" there is a relationship). But...



Quote

Words, Phrases and Passages (new)


Q lasse 'leaf' (S las); pl. lassi (S lais). It is only applied to certain kinds of leaves, especially those of trees, and would not e.g. be used of leaf of a hyacinth (linque). It is thus possibly related to LAS 'listen', and S-LAS stem of Elvish words for 'ear'; Q hlas, dual hlaru. Sindarin dual lhaw, singular lhewig.

lasse 'leaf'.




I compare first the similar remarks concerning a relationship: "some think" [old] to "thus possibly" [new]. But while the relationship is explained in Etymologies, in the new version we are merely left with "someone" [Tolkien as translator perhaps?] thinking there is a "possible" relationship here...

... but now without any direct statement about Quendian ears to explain the relationship (again if there is one).

I think it's at least arguable that JRRT later decided not to commit about this matter.

Thus my "necessarily" Smile


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jul 23 2015, 4:17pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 23 2015, 5:30pm

Post #9 of 12 (1802 views)
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Thanks for that twist! [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose that illustrators (and later, costume departments) had to make an explicit decision - pointy or not pointy. And then people work from earlier visual references until a trope is set up...

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jul 23 2015, 7:27pm

Post #10 of 12 (1789 views)
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I hope I've got that much right [In reply to] Can't Post

And just to add...

Smile

In Etymologies there are a number of roots (stems, bases) that are numbered like LAS1 and LAS2. For instance LUG1 and LUG2 carry the meanings "heavy" and "blue". We have words like lhong "heavy" and lhûn "blue" each of which hails from a base LUG.

In Tolkien's late scenario for instance, he has ROS- "foam, spray" and ROS "red haired", although if I recall correctly (Problem of ROS) he appears to think it's a bit problematic that these roots cannot be easily connected with respect to meaning... if I recalled that correctly... that confuses me. Why can't the meanings be very different (why should this be problematic)?


Anyway by the time Words, Phrases And Passages was written Tolkien had already published The Lord of the Rings in which we have words like Quenya lassi "leaves" and Sindarin lasto "listen". As these were published, as well as Amon Lhaw, in a sense Tolkien was already locked in to these forms...

... but Tolkien knew that he had never published anything about Quendian Ears, nor could he guess, I think, that his fans would ever see the abandoned document called Etymologies. In short: Tolkien hadn't commited this yet to print, and so it was easily altered or niggled with in some way.

Or not, admittedly Smile

I think Tolkien was aware of the popular notion of beings called "Elves", or similar, with pointed ears. Did he adopt this for his Elves or did he want to "distance" them from the winged fairies of already well known tales? I think he did adopt the notion at one point, as I say, but later did he change his mind?

Tolkien even thought of dropping the word Elves (used in translation) at least at one point, as it might give some wrong impressions. Was pointed ears one of them? He outright rejects "wings" in Appendix F, although I'm not sure he had to...

... but in any case he is silent about ears there.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jul 23 2015, 7:33pm

Post #11 of 12 (1788 views)
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It seems to me (for what it is worth) ... [In reply to] Can't Post

... that Tolkien's well-known antipathy to the portrayal of Elves/Fairies by Shakespeare et al. as diminutive creatures would have extended to abandoning any notion of pointed ears. But I don't have any support for that notion (beyond what you have already stated) so I probably should just shut up!

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jul 23 2015, 7:46pm

Post #12 of 12 (1783 views)
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still that's a good point [In reply to] Can't Post

Also, did JRRT lock himself into pointed Hobbit ears by publishing his own illustrations? Or, if he wanted to drop that too, can we say that hair might sometimes make an ear look pointed?

I can't remember the ears (if seen well enough) in Tolkien's Beleg meets Gwindor illustration, but that was also early, and in any case, seemingly reimagined by JRRT as a scene from... the Two Towers? Or Mirkwood...

... or something. Can't recall right now Wink


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jul 23 2015, 7:49pm)

 
 

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