Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
About the "Ramparts" scene - something is off about it
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 Next page Last page  View All

Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jul 21 2015, 8:39am

Post #26 of 107 (1077 views)
Shortcut
One problem for me [In reply to] Can't Post

is that I don't easily see DO'G Fili and AT Kili turning red-head dwarves while aging.

That creates some shift between those two and the rest of the dwarves. There is some lack of continuity, hence some lack of bonds between them and the dwarfship.

In the book I remember, one constant thing is that dwarves always discuss everything altogether.

In the movie it does happen sometimes (see Gloin's scene in Rivendell 'is he insulting us ?'), but it doesn't happen all the time : for instance in Bard's house you have Thorin, Balin, Kili and Fili discussing strategy as if they were the captains in charge and as if the other dwarves would have nothing to discuss. Elsewhere You have Gloin, Fili, Kili and Bofur separated from the group without any kind of collective reaction from the group.

I see some hand of Warner and more globally some hand of american-way to show dwarves mainly as warriors instead, for instance, of workers syndicating themselves on the go, which would not have been illegitimate. But That would have been far too 'sovietic' to please american mainstream.

Thinking of it, there is nothing very surprising here. Having Kili, Fili and Thorin human-like while the other dwarves are heavily prosthetics and bearded is just a part of the scheme.

We may just have to wait for a chinese-moscovite version of The Hobbit to see an alternative



(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Jul 21 2015, 8:41am)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jul 21 2015, 1:29pm

Post #27 of 107 (1032 views)
Shortcut
About their "defiance" [In reply to] Can't Post

I just kind of write that off to their being loyal to their Uncle and King - nothing against Bard. And really, they have no reason to care much about Thranduil, either - BUT they apparently drew the line at throwing Bilbo over the Ramparts!



Nah, they weren't up for that at all - too protective of our little HobbitCool

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jul 21 2015, 2:36pm

Post #28 of 107 (1015 views)
Shortcut
In the book, no one else than Gandalf threw that line [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin's anger was kinda consubstantial to his dwarvish nature and the outrage of seing his beloved Arkenstone given to the aliens. No dwarf could no would go against that anger.

In the movie that was much a slow burst, driven by the Dragon sickness inside Thorin's mind only.
That is some consistent discrepancy between the book and the movie.

I believe it has been chosen that way in order to avoid giving a greedy image of all dwarves (even if Beorn's feeling is that they are all greedy)


(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Jul 21 2015, 2:37pm)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jul 21 2015, 3:16pm

Post #29 of 107 (997 views)
Shortcut
True, but [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't recall all of the dwarves agreeing with Thorin in the book - or book Thorin being nearly as dragon-sick, which as you say may have also been a deliberate way of saying "not all Dwarves are greedy." I do recall that Fili & Kili did argue in favor of sharing the gold in the book, which didn't happen in the movie beyond Kili's one objection. The biggest difference between book & movie to me is that book Thorin only promised to pay the Laketowners back for the ponies & supplies, whereas movie Thorin made a much bigger promise: "You will have enough gold to rebuild Esgaroth 10 times over!" I think he meant it at the time he said it, before the dragon-sickness took over.



Definitely one change from the book that I heartily approve of!

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jul 21 2015, 3:44pm

Post #30 of 107 (994 views)
Shortcut
I think more PJ's vision [In reply to] Can't Post

You think all Dwarves were red-heads? Curious. That's one thing PJ talks about in the appendices, his strong desire to give every one in the Company a distinct look, so that you could see their sillouette & know which Dwarf you were looking at. And he did also talk about the decision to make Thorin a younger, more warrior-dwarf than in the book, but it's not so crazy considering Thorin DID fight in that battle of Anzanubi-what's it called (never can remember). I don't see all 13 Dwarves as warriors, though - Kili & Fili received lots of training but there's no mention of actual experience, Ori most certainly has neither training nor experience, and Bofur & Bombur also appear to have limited training/experience. I don't know that either one of them are as old as Thorin, so again maybe the opportunity never arrived.

I can only speculate on the reason for making the Dwarves more warrior-like - maybe it's the "Game of Thrones" influence; maybe it's because of how successful Aragorn & Boromir were in the LoTR movies; or maybe PJ just likes the idea better. I for one am glad of it, though, because I do believe warriors are more interesting than the bumbling, somewhat cowardly Dwarves of the book, who get captured by Trolls because they weren't paying attention and who escape Goblintown only because of Gandalf's intervention, etc. Of course that necessitated another change from the book, which is that Thorin decided to try and kill the dragon. Believe me, I'm not crazy about the way that whole scene was envisioned, but I appreciate that the change was made anyway. How could you have these brave, competent Dwarves hiding & cowering in fear? Goes against character, at least PJ's characterization. So they HAD to try, but the also had to fail.

It does seem that in the movie the Dwarves work better as a unit. Like I said, I absolutely LOVE the Iron Hills dwarves stacking their shields & chanting, and it seems that Thorin & nephews leaving for Ravenhill with only Dwalin as backup - didn't work out so well for themUnsure

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 21 2015, 3:51pm

Post #31 of 107 (986 views)
Shortcut
But [In reply to] Can't Post

IMO, re:


Quote
is that I don't easily see DO'G Fili and AT Kili turning red-head dwarves while aging.


If you meant Fili, Kili, and even Ori and Thorin IMO that would be hard to say, for me - because it's hard to really FEEL how long-lived dwarves, and elves are, compared to us. All the years that have gone by, when Thorin and Dwalin talk about Esgaroth and Smaug's attack. So the younger dwarves have lots of time to age into "fiesty, hairy squares".

And is not the idea that dwarves MUST have the "short hairy Gimli" look simply a Western stereotype of sorts?



Quote
In the book I remember, one constant thing is that dwarves always discuss everything altogether....I see some hand of Warner and more globally some hand of american-way to show dwarves mainly as warriors instead, for instance, of workers syndicating themselves on the go, which would not have been illegitimate. But That would have been far too 'sovietic' to please american mainstream.


IMO that IS an interpretation, but on the other hand I personally don't have a problem with Thorin, Kili, Fili and Balin having a brief huddle of sorts, kind of sharing their angst - because that's what families do, along with their lifelong friend and counselor. Plus I think that scene is there to underscore how fast the clock is ticking and the pressure Thorin is under re Durin's Day. It's a more intimate moment that wouldn't need the other dwarves to be there IMO.

Oin, Fili, Kili and Bofur being separated from the group without comment from others to me makes sense, in that by that time they all know the clock is ticking, and besides, one COULD interpolate that the older, warrior dwarves like Dwalin and Gloin know *&^%$ about forced marches on harsh terrain and may well agree with ThorinUnsure, and besides, this is a stressed-out KING talking to his nephew - IMO, who would say anything besides Fili? Maybe Balin, but Balin says flat out they can't take any more delays. Who can say? - RA has said that Thorin made the decision to leave Kili that night, so in theory he may well have already told Balin and the loyal Dwalin what he was going to do, so there was no reason for them to say anything.Unsure

Given the dynamics and social structure of the group I can't imagine the rest of them saying anything about it to Thorin - it's not their family, and they have a vested interest in getting to the Hidden Door too "we don't belong anywhereFrown" - if they succeed, all these dwarves will have a home.

For me, I just don't see a hand of conspiracy here to please an American audience, given that movies today are targeting the global audience, where there is much *gold* to be hadCool.

Re:


Quote
Thinking of it, there is nothing very surprising here. Having Kili, Fili and Thorin human-like while the other dwarves are heavily prosthetics and bearded is just a part of the scheme.


But they're not all heavily bearded w. prosthetics, and even Thorin has lots of hair and a fine beard - it may not be as LONG as folks wanted it, but Thorin has lots of hair as does Fili. It's a pretty hairy groupCool.

As for having warriors vs. workers - well, since we have individual social structures within the group - even re the book, which didn't sketch things out so much, Thorin had a fine cloak with a silver tassel? and Fili and Kili are his sister-sons - if I were going to put that on screen, wouldn't there be in a mixed group "a few warriors amongst us?" Some richer, some more "middle class"? Which does in fact happen.

I think I see what you are saying, and perhaps the depiction of something like the dwarves in Snow White and the Huntsman are what you had more in mind of?, but for me the more I turn over the design decisions that were made re dealing with the dwarves, and not making this whimsical group into something like cartoon characters ON SCREEN, the more impressed I am about the though process that had to go on - e.g., we have characters many care aboutHeart, vs. "13 visually uninteresting (and IMO indistinct) hairy little squares".


Quote
We may just have to wait for a chinese-moscovite version of The Hobbit to see an alternative


When the Hobbit is rebooted - and I am certain it will beSmile - then we can have some comparisons - it will be interesting, for sure.




Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 21 2015, 4:09pm

Post #32 of 107 (977 views)
Shortcut
True [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I just kind of write that off to their being loyal to their Uncle and King - nothing against Bard. And really, they have no reason to care much about Thranduil, either


*Sigh* - it's more wishful thinking on my part - and since we have to INTERPOLATE so much - well, the Bard/Thorin scene is a huge favorite of mine, and I love the two actors' careful handling of the dynamicsHeart - there is some verbal sparring, some snark, on both sides, but Bard and Thorin's association was always sparked w. some tension, and too...

Thorin isn't outright full of rage and disrespect with Bard, even dragon sick - he's willing to talk to Bard - IMO even showing his hurt "to ransom our future in exchange for our freedom" and the way Bard speaks and the look in his eyes - ANYWAY, I view that as the end result of Fili (probably) explaining everything to Thorin - so Thorin gives Bard the kind of respect he would never give Thranduil.Cool

So yes, in general, I could see Fili and Kili once more simply being loyal to their leader, king, and uncle - Fili doesn't have the #Majestic thing going on until the elves show up, which is pretty much how all the dwarves look. Defiant (love that - LOL Thorin firing that arrow offCoolCoolCoolHeartHeartHeartLaughLaughLaugh)

(On a side note, IMO that scene of the dwarves locking shields is a favorite of mine - IMO epic, epic - makes me want to grab a spear and line up with them - the sound work, the battle cries, that bad-ass dwarf calling commands - HeartHeartHeartHeartHeartHeart

BOFA may have some *issues* but there IS so much to love IMO - Thorin, dwarves, I got ravens AND the Thorin-fires-an-arrow-scene, Thranduil, Dain, warrior dwarves!HeartHeartHeartHeartHeart)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jul 21 2015, 6:46pm

Post #33 of 107 (944 views)
Shortcut
About the Laketown 4 [In reply to] Can't Post

Other than Bofur, there isn't really anything to discuss - it was already announced that if Bofur wasn't there they'd leave without him due to time. The only ones I can imagine objecting to that would be Bifur and Bombur, and to be honest it's curious that neither spoke up. Perhaps they didn't feel entitled to, or perhaps they'd seen Bofur get plastered and figured "well, what do you expect?" A little clarification there would be nice, but probably not crucial. Everything else was spelled out: Kili's injury would slow them down, Oin's duty was to the wounded, and Fili refused to go without his brother. I keep saying this harkens back to the book, where Bofur wouldn't leave Bombur behind (yes, I know it was on the mountain & not Laketown, but to me it's the same principle). But as much as I love my King Under the Mountain, I HATE the way he treated Kili in that scene - if he decided the night before, why not have a private conversation with Kili instead of booting him out at the last minute in front of everyone?Mad That part bothers me way more than Bombur not speaking up for Bofur (poor Steven never got a line anywayUnsure).

And yes, Jimmy's TV show had alot to do with this as well. Overall, I really appreciate this decision to leave 4 behind because I got my favorite fight scene out of the deal (Legolas & Tauriel in Laketown), plus a Dwarf-eye view of Smaug's attack in BOT5A - can't do better than this!Wink

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 21 2015, 8:12pm

Post #34 of 107 (933 views)
Shortcut
Sorry, but..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Is there any reason why Fili and Kili would age into red-haired dwarves no matter who played them? I don't think there was ever a requirement for dwarves to have red hair: in the book the brothers had yellow beards, so you might say that Fili, being blond, is on the way to fitting Tolkien's description.

As far this:

Quote

I see some hand of Warner and more globally some hand of american-way to show dwarves mainly as warriors instead, for instance, of workers syndicating themselves on the go, which would not have been illegitimate. But That would have been far too 'sovietic' to please american mainstream.



I think you're being far too political. I'm not American so I don't have any personal stake in it but I'm 100% sure that Warners had nothing to do with the way the dwarves are portrayed. I'm also certain that the presumed tastes of the American audience played no part in it at all. And although I've read the book many times, I don't see the dwarves as a sort of workers' Soviet. For one thing, Thorin is very definitely their leader and they defer to him.

I'm sure the decision to change some aspects of the dwarves came entirely from Peter Jackson's team and resulted from the disconnect in Tolkien's own writing between the bumbling, ineffectual dwarves of The Hobbit - who suddenly become warriors when there's a battle to fight - and the tough, capable dwarves of Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion. By making the dwarves more effective fighters the film simply brings them into line with Tolkien's later concept of the dwarvish race.

As for Thorin's age, Philippa Boyens says in one of the documentaries that they made him younger because they wanted the audience to believe him capable of taking and holding a kingdom. It's all very well in the books to have the concept of dwarves and elves ageing differently, but on screen what we see is a human actor and the only concept of ageing we have is human ageing. Cast an old man in the role of Thorin and it would be hard not to wonder why he is so determined to regain a kingdom he won't hold for very long. It would also be a very difficult role physically for an older man. And Fili and Kili follow naturally from Thorin. If he is younger, so are they.


CathrineB
Rohan


Jul 21 2015, 8:32pm

Post #35 of 107 (925 views)
Shortcut
Red haired? [In reply to] Can't Post

So, dwarves are supposed to all be alike and be red headed? Sounds boring. I don't really understand the dismay with how Fili ended up looking. Rob's Fili wouldn't have had any more beard than Dean and if anything he'd be even less of a dwarf. He's taller than Dean and even Aidan if I remember correct. And for a good looking guy as he is his Fili looked like a cosplay. I've seen Cosplays much better than this:


I mean the costume looks so bad on him it makes me wonder if they made the same desicion as they did with Aragorn in LotR. Only after filming did they decide that this wasn't working. He doesn't look natural - even if this is not the finished look, the glimpses of him in Bag End is no better. He looks rather goofy.

I can't say anything about his acting though so I can't compare them in that matter. Maybe he would be more... I don't know, agressive. Fierce. But so many of the dwarves are exactly that. I think one of the reasons fans likes Fili despite the little we get of him is because he comes off as calm and more easygoing.


In regards of Dean's Fili the overall look suits him better. The calmness with the characters is refreshing and in my opinion he looks like a young dwarf. He doesn't have much beard, but he's got a mustache going, he's short and more stout than Kili is. So I think it's downright awful that we didn't get more of him. That he couldn't even be afforded to be shown onscreen when saying "I'm going over the wall" ??? What was that??

And have you guys ever realized that Fili and Kili never have an oscreen chat with one another? It's always with someone else. Their last moment together hardly counts as a conversation as Fili's the only one speaking.

Anyway that as usual got out of hand... I feel rather strongly about this obviously.


Macfeast
Rohan


Jul 21 2015, 8:46pm

Post #36 of 107 (915 views)
Shortcut
"Everything I did, I did for them." [In reply to] Can't Post

A line uttered in the trailers, but not used in the film. I can easily imagine such a sentiment used to justify why an older Thorin would seek to reclaim Erebor (ignoring his desire for revenge, of course); So that his sister-sons would not have to rule over "poor lodgings in exile". A rather noble cause, I would say, to risk not living out your life in well-deserved peace for the sake of your heirs. It shouldn't be too hard to rectify such a motivation with the characterization of movie-Thorin either, as movie-Thorin suggests in DOS that he pictures Fíli one day being king, seemingly not seeing himself as one to sire an heir.


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Jul 21 2015, 8:56pm)


Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Rivendell


Jul 21 2015, 9:42pm

Post #37 of 107 (894 views)
Shortcut
Unnatural dwarf movement [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
He doesn't look natural - even if this is not the finished look, the glimpses of him in Bag End is no better.


And if you watch closely the moments of him in Bag End they left in, he doesn't even walk like a dwarf. Dwarves have a specific gait and way of moving - the actors had to learn this in dwarf boot camp before filming! It would be very jarring to have an actor who doesn't move like the rest of his companions. Luckily Dean got the walk down perfect, even when the camera isn't on him he's doing it. In order to play a dwarf you must become a dwarf Laugh

And I agree with everything else


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jul 21 2015, 10:20pm

Post #38 of 107 (878 views)
Shortcut
I may have it! [In reply to] Can't Post

Probably should have put this to my original post - I just re-watched the melting gold floor scene, and Gandalf says "This treasure will be your death," a line that, like "Everything I did" didn't make it in the TE. So, I'm now thinking that the "Going over the wall" bit replaced that conversation for some strange reason - I think that, possibly right before Thorin turns away Gandalf yells that line at him, kind of like "Join the fight or die!" Obviously there was more to the conversation than that one line, I should hope so at least.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 21 2015, 10:44pm

Post #39 of 107 (864 views)
Shortcut
Well... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But as much as I love my King Under the Mountain, I HATE the way he treated Kili in that scene - if he decided the night before, why not have a private conversation with Kili instead of booting him out at the last minute in front of everyone?Mad

I believe (and this harkens back to some older posts, but I haven't changed my mindCool) that Thorin loves Fili and Kili "everything I did, I did for them" but at that moment, Thorin is simply functioning re RA's comment "he can be a king, he can be a leader, but he can't be their father - but he tries" - and perhaps that line was commenting, even then, on the story arc that only the people seeing the script evolve would know. And Thorin, ultimately, throws everything to the winds for Kili, in the end (as I think he would have done for Fili) because in BOFA we see Dwalin's reaction, and Thorin knew this was a trap, and he didn't care about any of it including his own life - only to get to Kili *sob*.FrownFrownFrown

Anyway, since DOS doesn't show it, I'd have to "interpolate" that it's already night when the dwarves are caught, evidently there was a feast and at some point the dwarves were stuffed into Laketown gear, plus I imagine Thorin and Balin at least, with Dwalin by Thorin's side, had to put up with fending off a now-fawning, oily Master prattling on and fussing, and Alfrid and his pimples hanging around, as well as miscellaneous guards and so on, and then the Master fussing over getting a boat together (probably simply taken from some poor Laketowner).

So if there was any time in there for an already strained Thorin to talk to Kili, perhaps even Dwalin or Balin advised against it, knowing Kili would react exactly the way he did at the docks, and want to go, and likely Fili would chime in, and so on. So I can see the Thorin, Balin, Dwalin, or Thorin himself, as old war campaigners, choosing to just let everyone enjoy themselves, for the briefest few hours. I don't think it was some humiliating thing re the dwarves, Thorin IS King after all and a war leader, you do what he says.

And in the end:



A possibility.....




Wished for!Tongue









Yep, I'm good with it. Except now I want MORE Fili!!!Cool



Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu






Avandel
Half-elven


Jul 21 2015, 11:02pm

Post #40 of 107 (860 views)
Shortcut
Not at all, IMO [In reply to] Can't Post

Agree with your whole post, especially:


Quote
So I think it's downright awful that we didn't get more of him.


It isUnimpressed. Especially with his acting ability and athleticism...And whatever RK's personal reasons for leaving might have been, it was a mild feeling on my part, but re the early AUJ dwarf interviews I thought he was talking too much - over the other dwarf actors a bit - I just remember that (without making a big deal over it) as while I don't like "Americans being picked on" - we're nice and fun people LOL Cool it is true many other cultures evidently are more reserved, and I thought RK needed to dial it back a bit.

Anyway, think the production dodged a bullet, there, personally.Cool Who can say, maybe - as it must be something to have prosthetics put on you, and have a whole team commenting on your face and so on, while you just stand there - like PJ said, these were folks that needed to get along and roll with things. Never mind folks hammering away at your accent, and the long hours.....so maybe RK decided Middle Earth wasn't for him.

And I'll always admire Dean as from the looks of things, he just jumped in and went for it, and is a terrific spokesperson all through the Appendices, as well as an amazing Fili.HeartHeartHeart




Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jul 21 2015, 11:16pm

Post #41 of 107 (856 views)
Shortcut
Ah i like that Rob dressed up [In reply to] Can't Post

This is the way I picture myself a young dwarf.

I don't think I can explain further, it's mostly visual. No cosplay here, for me he will stay the missing dwarf : robust and auto-satisfied




Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Rivendell


Jul 21 2015, 11:38pm

Post #42 of 107 (844 views)
Shortcut
Young dwarf? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's the same costume type and hairstyle as Dean's Fili, and this guy has even less prosthetics, it appears. And you said yourself that both actors look alike, so I guess I don't understand. You prefer his facial expressions more, is that it? There are plenty of shots from the movies where Fili looks confident and cocky even.


lionoferebor
Rohan

Jul 22 2015, 2:54am

Post #43 of 107 (809 views)
Shortcut
Well... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The more I look at Dean O'Gorman, the more I understand why they chose him to replace Rob : they look almost the same.


Aside from the blond hair, I don't see the resemblance.

In regards to appearance, while RK is an attractive man he did not make an attractive dwarf...hot, ugly, or otherwise. Some have said his appearance as Fili looks like a poor attempt at cosplay, I think that's too nice. I think RK's Fili looks like a doofus, rather than a young dwarf prince who will one day be king or even a gruff, war-like character as you suggest. Based on appearance alone - since that is all any of us have to go by - I could not have taken him seriously in the role.

DO's Fili however LOOKS like a young dwarf prince...a king-in-the making, which is ultimately what he is.


In Reply To
But Robert Kazinsky carries a gravitas, a density, even a stubborness which didn't dwell in the kiwi actor, who is mostly a gentle an joyful fellow...In that movie, Kazinsky had been cast to be a Thorin-in-the-making, and he would have confronted his uncle with more energy and determination than Dean could.


No one has ever seen RK's performance of Fili, therefore no one knows how his Fili would have compared to DO's Fili. Also while each actor brings a little of himself to each character he plays - as another poster mentioned - a huge part of the way a character is portrayed on screen has a lot to do with the director's vision.

That said I do not believe Fili was ever intended to be this hardcore, war character as you think he should be. If that is what you want look no further than Dwalin or Gloin...they both fit the bill.

As for the Lake-town scene, DO plays that moment- and every other moment - beautifully. I liked Fili after I saw AUJ, but that moment on the docks when he defies Thorin - his uncle, mentor, and King - absolutely stole my heart...and I dare say I think he stole the hearts of many in that moment.

As stated above no one has seen RK's performance of Fili, so there's no telling he how would have played that moment on the docks. However based on how you think he would have portrayed Fili I do not believe RK's performance would have been as captivating.


In Reply To
...and maybe RK was just puzzled to act like he was some kind of gentle young man instead of a young dwarf going to grow beardy.


RK is a professional actor. If the director wants "some kind of gentle young man instead of a young dwarf going to grow beardy" it's his job to figure out how to portray that on screen. If he's not able to sort it out then he's probably in the wrong profession.


In Reply To
Many got accustomed to the no-dwarflike-type of both dwarves and came to like them as they were, but I never went truly satisfied about it...That's why we got three handsome dwarves, and it certainly paid off, given all the crowds who wept when they died : that's the way movies go since the birth of movie-making.


So because many were able to see past the non-dwarf like appearance of Thorin, Fili, and Kili and fell in love with them based on their personalities (though I personally do not care for Kili) that makes us shallow because we cried at their deaths? Yet your dissatisfaction of their non-dwarf like appearance has hindered you from truly enjoying who these character are.


In Reply To
Remember that none of the Snow White's Seven Dwarves was supposed to be handsome, and that the handsome prince arrived only at the last minute. Did that prevent Disney's iconic opus to become a smash hit ?


The reason Disney's Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs was a smash hit was because it was the first ever full length animated feature...not because of seven little hairy men. At the time of its release (1937) nothing like it had ever been seen. It was a monumental achievement in movie-making. They could've drawn all seven dwarfs to look like Fili's and Kili's and it still would have been a smash hit.


In Reply To
I don't easily see DO'G Fili and AT Kili turning red-head dwarves while aging.


Where does it say dwarves turn red-headed as they age? And what does Fili's and Kili's appearances 100 years later - had they survived - have to do with who they are now? I can't see Elves as young children (that whole immortal thing throws me off) but that doesn't effect my perspective of them as they are presented on screen.


In Reply To
I see some hand of Warner and more globally some hand of american-way to show dwarves mainly as warriors instead, for instance, of workers syndicating themselves on the go, which would not have been illegitimate. But That would have been far too 'sovietic' to please american mainstream.


As an American I find this statement insulting. Last I checked these movies were made with a world audience in mind...not an American audience. And you may find this hard to believe but we Americans also enjoy films without warrior characters...or love stories for that matter. We have very eclectic taste in movies.

Last, I also find this statement extremely contradictory to everything you've said. In almost everyone of your post you talk about how you felt DO's Fili was too small and too soft...not this authoritative, strong, warrior you supposedly think Fili would have been had RK portrayed him. And then you say the dwarves were shown as warriors on screen rather than the working class to appease the so-called American mainstream?


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jul 22 2015, 6:26am

Post #44 of 107 (789 views)
Shortcut
Of course nobody in the world can ignore [In reply to] Can't Post

... that most of Hollywood, Burbank or Culver City movies are aimed to world's audiences, and not only to American ones.
But would you find insulting the statement that all of those cities are Californian cities, thus american cities ?
Would you also find insulting the recall that Warner Company's headquarters, producer of the movies, are in California and not in Auckland, New Zealand ?

Can you, as an american, hear that kind of things without feeling 'insulted' ?

About workers vs warriors, each side his own history. Here in many countries in Europe, France, Italy or many of other east european states, there has been since the WWII some strong movie-making tradition where workers are heroes and where warriors are not so much. Just check movie history.

Why this ? Because of two mega european civil wars, where civilian workers and families and citizens has been hugely killed by 'warrior heroes', allied side as well as axis side. European most recent 'world' civil wars haven't been, as had been US civil war, a struggle mostly held between troops fighting each other. The price paid by european civilians has simply been too heavy to be forgotten by european civilians.

That's why personally, maybe because i grew in that tradition, I wasn't very fond, from the beginning, of the concept of dwarf warriors, which took so strong a hold on this Hobbit movie. Especially since in my remembrance, Tolkien's dwarves weren't especially great warriors. I just sometimes remember that showing dwarves as strong warriors wasn't especially an aim for the Book.

1) Tolkien's dwarves didn't fight the trolls, only Thorin did
2) Tolkien's dwarves didn't fight the spiders, only Bilbo did
3) Tolkien's dwarves didn't fight the dragon, only Bard did.

But Warner's dwarves brilliantly fought the trolls, and the spiders, and the dragon.

Thus tell me, do you you really have to find yourself 'insulted' as an american each time some people remember that wars are mostly carried by warriors, and that more american movies celebrate warriors than workers ?

If as an american you feel insulted by that, I surely will apologize because that was not my intention to insult. For me, it's not especially a matter of american trend, it's a matter of warrior trend : french warriors had the same kind of speech when they invaded french colonial empire : they brought civilization and answered to insults.

For Dean O'Gorman, maybe that's just me, or contradictory, I don't really care.
As I stated I just feel that this actor wasn't very convincing carrying loads of weapons.
And I surely won't blame him for that, because mostly I'm a pacifist and as I told i'm not fond of weapons-carriers

I just have the feeling that if you take an actor and ask him to show a inclination for weaponry, a kiwi actor may not have been the easiest to find for that.
I've heard that New Zealanders also have their own history about war, especially WWI


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Jul 22 2015, 9:40am)


Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Rivendell


Jul 22 2015, 9:32am

Post #45 of 107 (761 views)
Shortcut
Weapons [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I just have the feeling that if you take an actor and ask him to show a inclination for weaponry, a kiwi actor may not have been the easiest to find for that.


Don't insult the Kiwis now.

Whatever you have against Dean O'Gorman, don't project it on an entire nation


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 22 2015, 9:42am

Post #46 of 107 (756 views)
Shortcut
Please try to stick to the discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

without bringing judgements on nationalities into the mix. Edits have been made in this thread and we'll remove posts if people can't make their points without causing offence.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jul 22 2015, 9:43am

Post #47 of 107 (753 views)
Shortcut
Come on ! [In reply to] Can't Post

For me, considering Kiwis as a peaceful people in the core is anything but an insult.

Do you really cherish warmongering ? Cool


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jul 22 2015, 10:02am

Post #48 of 107 (742 views)
Shortcut
Maybe the problem is coming from some understandings [In reply to] Can't Post

prompt to take anything as an offense against themselves instead of just taking the discussion for a theorical discussion calling for examples.

Celebrating New Zealand peaceful spirit, or putting on the table the reflexion about the fact that the movie dwarves are far more warriors than the book dwarves is a subject of discussion. do we see trends or don't we ?

The matter of the Hobbit, and especially the matter of BOTFA, is a matter of war.
And war is a matter of large groups of people : elves, dwarves, orcs and humans in Middle-Earth, between human groups in our world, where there are not such distinctions.

I don't think it's possible to draw a line between the movie and our perceptions without interrogating considerations about wars between humans.
I don't think it's possible to have a movie showing a war without having a movie showing some point of view about wars.

Some wars can be about riches. But mostly, war ignitition is about offence.
Should we take off the screen the insults launched by Dain at the face of Thranduil and vice-verse ? That were insults.

Would it still be talking about the same movie ?


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 22 2015, 10:33am

Post #49 of 107 (736 views)
Shortcut
Tolkien's dwarves are a warrior people, Milieuterrean.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and I think that in making the Hobbit dwarves try to fight their way out of trouble more than they do in the book Peter Jackson was just trying to bring them in line with the dwarves in Tolkien's other books. This is what Tolkien writes in The Silmarillion:

Quote

"A warlike race of old were all the Naugrim, and they would fight fiercely against whomsoever aggrieved them: servants of Melkor, or eldar, or Avari, or wild beasts, or not seldom their own kin, Dwarves of other mansions and lordships."


And this from Lord of the Rings, about the build-up to the Battle of Azanulbizar:

Quote

"Durin's folk gathered all their host, and their were joined by great forces sent from the Houses of other Fathers; for his
[Azog's] dishonour to the heir of the Eldest of their race filled them with wrath. When all was ready they assailed and sacked one by one all the strongholds of the Orcs that they could. . . Both sides were pitiless, and there was death and cruel deeds by dark and light. But the Dwarves had the victory through their strength, and their matchless weapons, and the fire of their anger. . .'


And even in The Hobbit Thorin's dwarves sing about their weapons and their determination to defend their own:

Quote

"The sword is sharp, the spear is long,
The arrow swift, the Gate is strong;
The heart is bold that looks on gold;
The dwarves no more shall suffer wrong.


And here he describes Dain's dwarves:

Quote
"The dwarves are exceedingly strong for their height, but most of these were strong even for dwarves. In battle they wielded heavy two-handed mattocks; but each of them had also a short broad sword at his side and a roundshield slung at his back. . ."







Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jul 22 2015, 10:52am

Post #50 of 107 (726 views)
Shortcut
I agree with the fact that dwarves can be occasional warriors [In reply to] Can't Post

But i less agree with the suggestion that they could be permanent, appointed warriors.

I really do think that nothing opposed that they could be seen mainly as workers, building cities, forging jewels, etc.
And I think you will agree that we don't see much of that in those movies.

Save some stances in Bag End and some hint of negociating abilities of Balin, most of the screen time is showing a moving commando.
Compare it with Bakshi's cartoon and you will understand that the inherent necessity of that isn't very obvious.

By the citation you mention, I understand that the Naugrim are warlike, but were all dwarves Naugrims ?

PS - Oh, I see that 'Naugrims' is how the elves called the dwarves.

That drives me to one question : do you think that the very nature of one people can be truly told by another people, especially if that other people is commonly in war with this people ? Cool


(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Jul 22 2015, 10:58am)

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.