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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 20 2015, 8:19pm
Post #1 of 36
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So, months after, does the "dark DG Galadriel" work for you?
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Just wanted to thrown this out there, as going through the newly-acquired Chronicles book, and there is a nice section of Galadriel's costumes - the twisted seaweed influence of the "dark" costume - but that got me thinking/frowning again over the whole Galadriel dynamic...
There are things I love about all of that, but perhaps this scene as well is a victim of the too-tight editing - at least for me. Because all that has been commented on by the filmmakers, and all the appreciation of fans when Galadriel "loses it" - well, I don't see it . Not like a see a logical and believable flow re LOTR where the influence of the Ring would be overwhelming to face off against.
For me, this scene has some issues - so, both Galdriel and Gandalf are weakening - and I can believe while Galadriel is lying there, she rallies herself - but maybe what loses me is the IMO abrupt conversion into this "thing/creature" - except for the phial, it's almost as tho it isn't Galadriel at all (never mind "The Ring/Samara comparisons). Maybe - for me - I needed one of those classic shots as a transition of just seeing her eyes open, and they are all black, or something.. Or is that the point, she ISN'T herself, but I am not seeing an internal struggle to stay true to herself, as depicted.
On the other hand, there have been some nice threads on this:
http://newboards.theonering.net/...est=147293940#825025
Credit: HiddenSpring
Overall, the "Mirror in Galadriel" scene is FOTR is still the most crucial scene in her arc. When she rejects Frodo's offer (and in doing so, rejects all dominion over Middle-earth and accepts the passing of the Elves), we at first see her trembling and shuddering, just as she does after defeating Sauron in BOTFA. But immediately afterwards something very different happens: we see a relief in her face, an inner peace that is altogether absent in the Dol Guldur scene. I believe this feeling of acceptance is what sets the Mirror scene apart from her battle with Sauron: now she has truly passed the test and become only "Galadriel".
This leads to my second thought, which is: She is not entirely being "herself" when taking on the dark form to face the Necromancer. And I think Cate Blanchett gives us the emotional key to this just a few seconds prior, when Gandalf tells her to go with him, and her face turns from pity to quick arrogance. In that moment she chooses to face Sauron, yes, but I don't think it's for purely altruistic purposes. To me, what drives her in this scene is a terrible will to assert herself, to mark her place, to say to Sauron "There are still other forces to be reckoned with in Middle-earth than you". Sauron is terrified because he has seen something of him in her, and indeed, the whole scene showcases the "dark terrible Queen" Galadriel might grow into if she fully became a force for dominion.
In this sense, there is a great difference between the Galadriel in The Hobbit films and the first minutes of her FOTR appearance, to the Galadriel of the post-temptation scenes in FOTR, TTT and ROTK. Notice how in her glorious cameo in ROTK, she appears to Frodo bathed in light. Previously she had been tethering between two edges (and the dark seemed stronger in some cases) but finally there is only one Galadriel. This is also true as she waves goodbye to Frodo in FOTR: she seems smaller, but peaceful and one with nature.
Other observations:
- Galadriel's "One who has seen the Eye!" in FOTR is even scarier now, as she has a direct connection to it (and the Eye saw Her, too).
- The passing of the test comes as a great relief and victory especially after Saruman's corruption.
- Now that she has been established as the most powerful Elf, her scene with Aragorn takes on further significance: it seems a passing of the torch between the two races.
- When she gives the phial to Frodo, it seems to be the moment where she finally relinquishes all direct action in this war (the phial was, after all, her weapon of choice in BOTFA). It becomes another transition for her.
- In TTT, Galadriel says to Elrond, "The time of the Elves is over", exactly what Sauron says to her in BOTFA. But there is no bitterness about it, and she urges Elrond to assist and encourage men.
- Finally, she never seems happier or more carefree that in her very last shot in ROTK, as she gives Frodo a cheeky smile. It's a great bittersweet reminder of her triumph as she finally leaves the shores.
From this same thread from another poster:
On this part, I can't wait for what the EE of BOTFA will show us regarding the direct interaction between the Dark Lord and the Lady of Light: Sauron, as we know, tempts her, tries to sway her into becoming a force for Evil... Galadriel even uses Black Speech in this moment (will we see a spiritual possesion of Galadriel a la Regan in the Exorcist? ;))... And she has to summon every particle of her strenght to resist and, finally, demonstrates why she is considered unconquerable in resistance: Sauron fails, Galadriel resists and, moments later, she truly turns dark only to kick his ass (and all of the Nazgul at once) out of the fortress.
?????? Is this expected in the EE?? And also, would not Galadriel been very familiar with Sauron from ages ago, and even had direct contact with him:
During the Second Age, the Maia Annatar, the "Lord of Gifts", guided Celebrimbor and the other Ñoldor of Eregion in the creation of the Rings of Power. Galadriel took an immediate distrust to Annatar, and it later turned out that this mistrust was justified, as he was finally revealed to be Sauron. It was she who counseled Celebrimbor in the hiding of the rings, and when Eregion was attacked, Galadriel was entrusted with one of the Three Rings of the Elves. Her ring was Nenya, the Ring of Water. Credit: LOTR WIKI
And why would Galadriel "weaken" so quickly - she is a ring-bearer, and her ring:
for the powers of her ring were protection, preservation, and concealment from evil
I think Galadriel, more than anyone, suspected who the Necromancer was, so IMO she wouldn't have walked into DG not knowing her enemy.
Thoughts? Could the EE improve this scene? Does it need improving?
(This post was edited by Avandel on Jul 20 2015, 8:19pm)
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jul 20 2015, 8:29pm
Post #2 of 36
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I would have preferred her glowing white form that she goes into when she shouts at Radagast. That was great!
My main problem with the dark Galadriel stuff though is the overall execution. It just didn't have the impact that I think it should have. It came out of nowhere and felt kind of awkward. The editing back and forth between her and Sauron wasn't really dramatic enough. The whole thing felt so rushed, and I hope they give that scene some extra attention in the extended edition.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 20 2015, 8:49pm
Post #3 of 36
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I totally get it - it goes back to DOS, where Sauron/Necormancer says "There is no light that can defeat Darkness." In other words, she can't JUST use the light of the phial, but has to use some of the darkness within her as well. Well she did use up alot of her strength, but strength to me is something that you get back - you know, rest and recharge. You know, that scene in FoTR where she says "In place of a dark lord you would have a QUEEN" is probably my favorite scene in that movie - I even listed it as my fave Elf moment on another poll recently. So, whatever weakening she may have experienced in BOT5A was clearly recovered from by FoTR. How seamless was it? Well, it explains Gimli talking to the Hobbits about an Elf witch "of terrible power" (although how he would know is something of a mystery, unless Gandalf told Gloin). As far as the influence of the Ring goes, well, it's not there, is it? Bilbo has it in Erebor, and apparently even Sauron hasn't sensed it yet, so there is no influence to face off against. I don't know that I'd care much one way or another if her eyes opened and they were black, but I thought the white eyes when she told Radaghast to "GO" was pretty effective. Nor do I think there was any internal struggle going on, it was just her getting in touch with her "Dark Side" to defeat a powerful enemy. Maybe you're just over-thinking this scene. Could the EE improve it? Probably, the EE is usually an improvement, at least where PJ is concerned.
Personally I love that whole scene, from the moment she flicked her ring & blasted the Orc into orc-blivion, to the whole "Goth Galadriel" image and "I am not alone." Did you notice how Elronds eyes bugged out as she rose all Goth-like - clearly he'd never seen her like that, and was shocked and maybe even a little fearful. Again, back to FoTR, "All shall love me and despair!" That phrase itself is almost a contradiction, but I think it says yes, Galadriel COULD be corrupted, and if it ever does happen LOOK OUT!!! Because everyone is capable of being corrupted by something - I could talk about Thorin's corruption, but let's not derail your Galadriel thread, LOL!
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jul 20 2015, 10:31pm
Post #4 of 36
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It tends to remind me that the grumblings of the films spelling things out too much are confined to the aspects that the grumblers already know inside out. Anything new is not spelled enough.
It's all porridge.
More personally, it raised interesting thoughts about the inherent darkness of unrestrained mortal power in ME. It made me think about power and place as linked ideas in the texts. It did a good job of concealing the mechanisms of magic, as in the books. Lots of new thoughts and so little to complain about for me.
I would still think a scene of Saruman finding the palantir in DG would add an extra layer.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jul 20 2015, 11:27pm
Post #5 of 36
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But it sort of feels alien to me (a bit like, say, Tauriel and Legolas in these films, though better). Perhaps it's because it was not written into the books by Tolkien?
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CathrineB
Rohan
Jul 20 2015, 11:32pm
Post #6 of 36
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It looked like the badguy from "The Ring" had suddenly come looking for a completely different ring in this franchise  In other words she looked like that samara girl.
Did not like it at all. I did like the pale ghostly thing she did to chase Radagast off, but that sea weed look? Awful. I thought the whole fighting scene at Dol Guldur was just... Odd. And Sauron and the nine lining up looks like the menu of a game where you pick your character
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 20 2015, 11:34pm
Post #7 of 36
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My problem with BOTFA's 'dark Galadriel'
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has to do with inconsistency with the 'dark Galadriel' in FOTR. In the first movie, she went dark under the temptation of the One Ring - "this is how I would look and act as a Queen with so much power in her hands". It's the extreme of Galadriel - something she's been keeping a lid on but which the One Ring would bring out in her.
In BOTFA, her dark, scary side isn't about being under the control of the One Ring - it's something she can bring about at will (after being exhausted, then exhausted again afterward) when she needs to give a smack-down to something Tall, Dark and Dangerous. Far from denying this awful part of her psyche, she instead uses it when necessary.
Basically, I think 'dark Galadriel' was used in BOTFA because it looked cool in FOTR, but the story consistency wasn't considered deeply enough. It also undermines just how frightening Galadriel could be with the One Ring because (following the six films' timeline) she went freaky-dark once before and came back from it OK, so going dark with the One Ring in her control won't be such a bad thing - right?
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Jul 20 2015, 11:35pm)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jul 20 2015, 11:51pm
Post #8 of 36
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IMO, there is a missing scene between the moment Galadriel throws her hand out of Gandalf's hand and the moment Sauron shows himself with the nine, and most probably there is another one even before, because we see here gone weak with no reason.
I believe the comments above are right : there might be some kind of failure of the 'White Galadriel' preceding and explaining the coming out of the "Goth Galadriel".
Goth Galadriel was still around when the Fellowship came to Lothlorien : Had not Frodo given freely the Ring to the elven queen, she might have turned Goth to get It. He helped her to resist the temptation and 'pass the test'. After that victory, Galadriel became nothing else than a huge smile.
That said, I think we can acknowledge that the scene 'worked' in the TE, with a little help for imagination from the audience.
(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Jul 20 2015, 11:52pm)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jul 21 2015, 12:02am
Post #9 of 36
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He went dark from his own in Rivendell, calling the black speach to prevent Boromir to take the Ring, something nobody else had done there before. He had also done so to prevent Bilbo from keeping the Ring in Bag End.
Why shouldn't Galadriel 'break bad' at her will if she feels it necessary ?
The only problem then is when that kind of things happen, there is a huge price paid in trust.
Sarumane has seen her turning dark. Elrond has. Gandalf too. And Sauron of course.
Further on, Sarumane may try to turn dark himself against to fight Sauron before discovering that 'there is no victory' against him.
Would have he done it if he hadn't seen Galadriel 'winning' her fight ?
Gandalf also was frightened about his own use of the Ring.
Only Tom Bombadil wasn't.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 21 2015, 7:59am
Post #10 of 36
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I appreciate the thought that went into it. The idea that Galadriel can't go into a place as evil as Dol Guldur without being visibly affected by it - the way that costume change was designed and the use of a water motif - they refer to it the the Chronicles book as her 'drowned look' - because Nenya, her Ring, was the Ring of Water. It's so much more interesting, I think, than just going for the obvious. It's an exploration of what might have been in an incident we know next to nothing about.
And thanks for linking HiddenSpring's post - it's the best explanation I've seen of the story of Galadriel as developed for the films.
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jul 21 2015, 8:45am
Post #11 of 36
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If so, it's a good explanation.
And then we might use the term 'Ghoulish Galadriel' instead of 'Nuclear Galadriel' or 'Gothic Galadriel'
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Arannir
Valinor
Jul 21 2015, 8:49am
Post #12 of 36
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Probably the worst moment of BotFA for me, together with the unused chance to make the beginning of the battle and later the end of the three Durins great scenes.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jul 21 2015, 9:08am
Post #13 of 36
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I would read it slightly differently.
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I think both instances show Galadriel with excess power and dominion (and demonstrating the inherent corruption and darkness thereof - there are no begnign dictatorships in ME!).
I wouldn't see the scene in BOFA as something used "at will". She is portrayed as visually and audibly distorted during the episode and clearly barely in control and drained by it as it ends.
I think the difference with the Ring is that it offers the prospect not of a "nuclear Galdriel" unrestrained for a few moments, at great cost, but of Galdriel with her own nuclear power station upon her finger - given power beyond mortal limits and corrupted thereby into excercising that dominion over others.
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jul 21 2015, 9:18am
Post #14 of 36
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Will can provoke a distorsion of personality
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as well as anger do.
What may be unwanted is the price you pay to get things according to your will.
Do you think that Galadriel was driven, or that she drove ?
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jul 21 2015, 2:11pm
Post #15 of 36
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I'm sorry I'm not sure I followed that.
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Apologies but could you rephrase the question?
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jul 21 2015, 2:26pm
Post #16 of 36
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"Do you think that Galadriel was driven by the power of her Ring, or do you think that she drove it ?"
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KingTurgon
Rohan
Jul 21 2015, 2:27pm
Post #17 of 36
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I couldn't figure out how to phrase my thoughts til I saw this post, I agree Glorfy :)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jul 21 2015, 2:55pm
Post #18 of 36
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Oh - I was referring to the One Ring
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In post above (in reference to the prospect of her claiming it in FOTR). Apologies for any confusion about her ring.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 21 2015, 11:50pm
Post #19 of 36
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Really appreciate everyone's comments and
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re:
I appreciate the thought that went into it. The idea that Galadriel can't go into a place as evil as Dol Guldur without being visibly affected by it - the way that costume change was designed and the use of a water motif - they refer to it the the Chronicles book as her 'drowned look' - because Nenya, her Ring, was the Ring of Water.
I think this and some other comments - I think a few more details on screen would have been helpful for me - not that everything always has to be spelled out, but a bit more underscoring of the drain on Galadriel herself (tho it's made mention of - re "one light") - and I think those less versed in Tolkien might have needed some help re the "Ring of Water" - it was only after I finally got the WETA book I understood some things. And I still think I would like some scene where Galadriel is gathering herself - because we see a flash of power and her eyes look very white, and then next, they have that all-black pupil effect e.g., there was something of a disconnect for me.
Still, there is some IMO spectacular imagery - Galadriel, the designs for the Nine, the fiery appearance of Sauron. My one other quibble would be - especially after reading about it, where having additional elves there was considered - I really don't see that there WOULDN'T have been other elves around - unless the idea is that Dol Guldur and whatever is there is so inherently evil, that only the most powerful can be risked going into it.
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 21 2015, 11:54pm
Post #20 of 36
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and I hope they give that scene some extra attention in the extended edition.
Yes. Because IMO there is some great stuff here, visually:
I would have preferred her glowing white form that she goes into when she shouts at Radagast. That was great!
Those eyes - that's what I thought I would see - more or less - when we see Galadriel releasing her power.
Hó , Það sé ég föður minn
Hó , Það sé ég móður mína, og Hó, Það sé ég bræður mínir og systur mínar
Hó , Það sé ég mitt fólk aftur í byrjun
Hó, gera Þeir kalla til mín, og bjóða mér að taka minn stað meðal þeirra í sölum Valhallar
Hvar hugrakkir mun lifa að eilífu
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Bumblingidiot
Rohan
Jul 22 2015, 9:57pm
Post #21 of 36
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It subverted and weakened her character. The great strength of the character that Tolkien wrote was that she could inspire absolute loyalty and love - much stronger than ruling through fear. In FOTR, had she taken the ring, she would have become an irresistible force, not because nobody could resist doing what she asked, but because nobody would want to. Sauron would probably have found his forces deserting him and switching sides. Her great power in the books is in wisdom and inspiring others to do things they would not otherwise be able to do. Those are the strengths of great leadership. By showing her, without her people, just doing some magic, the film-makers have lessened her importance and misunderstood Tolkien's depiction of her.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Iarhen
The Shire
Jul 22 2015, 10:45pm
Post #22 of 36
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Precisely my thoughs... Although I did enjoy this fan-fic inspired scene of Galadriel bringing the smack down on Sauron...
"You have no power here, servant of Morgoth! You are nameless! Faceless! Formless! Go back to the Void from whence you came!"
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jul 22 2015, 11:17pm
Post #23 of 36
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Definitely the low point of the trilogy for me, and while the Dol Guldur scene may be improved overall by additions in the EE, the basic wrongness of dark Galadriel could only be fixed by removing it altogether, which ain't gonna happen.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jul 23 2015, 12:03am
Post #24 of 36
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For me a big missing scene is Galadriel spelling greenery over Dol Guldur
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That's where I would like to feel her benevolent power.
Before seing the movie, I expected Sarumane to be the most active in the momentary defeat of Sauron.
Seing Galadriel be the one to do it doesn't bother me, but I wonder how after such a battle she could keep enough strength to do her 'green stuff' on DG.
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squiggle
Rivendell
Jul 23 2015, 1:03pm
Post #25 of 36
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Is Galadriel's moment of meeting her initial short sightedness of ME
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Is how i interperate her tour de force in Dol Guldor.
She was peeved and came to directly assert her forces in facing down Sauron. She is against Sauron's designs but is in Middle Earth, for a realm of her own, not so different to Sauron in this regard. This relates back to in a way to her not understanding fully Gandalf in AUJ, his life is not how she sees having a realm of her own in Middle Earth.
Her unleashing in Dol Guldor is resultant from a price she is going to have to pay for her own pure kingdom in Middle Earth, and that is the reality of what bought her to middle earth, as it is otherwise not her own style of wisdom. If all of the members of the white council had been following Gandalf's example, it would not have come to this with Sauron, as it is, he is only temporarily thwarted in the Hobbit and such confrontations can never really be the basis for these 'beings' in getting around this problem in ME (what role does this encounter play in Saruman's looming rivalry/treachery against the White Council that he is nominally head of?).
Galadriels innocent flight of fancy into Middle Earth ends in Dol Guldor in a way, that is how i like to interpret it. It's slight deviation of cannon, in terms of manifested powers, of the council types, but also may be that manifested powers are not neccessarily equivalent to ultimate natare of the power hierarchies in ME, as Gandalf is the wisest, but it is he who is being and in need of rescue, he later becomes the White Wizard in a timely fashion as we know, which in a way all ties into a illusory nature of power, & that is something that is more multi-dimensional.
So i like it,
(This post was edited by squiggle on Jul 23 2015, 1:13pm)
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