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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Jul 24 2015, 4:29pm
Post #26 of 36
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I love HiddenSpring's analysis of it all,
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(thank you for that great link) and feel quite in agreement now at least with this whole concept of showing Galadriel's very real inner weakness - although of course, like many of us, I still shrink inside when actually seeing her in that perturbed condition.
But I really think the director and writer PJ and the two other writers have been right in the way they have portrayed Galadriel and her complex behaviour in this scene:
it is so important for us all to fully understand what has been Tolkien's very insistent point all along his entire Middle-earth Mythology: that no one, except Eru Iluvatar, is immune to the temptation of Pride, and of Power for Domination. This is the Danger of Dangers, and we see victim after great victim falling into the trap of it after Melkor, the most powerful of all, does it first, and turns into Morgoth.
If I were part of the contemporary American culture I would probably regret, like some of you do, that Galadriel's aspect is at some point reminiscent of what another being in another film looks like, but luckily for me, being French, I don't know that other film at all, so I don't have that additional problem and I can just judge the merits of the scene in itself. My feeling is, kudos to the actress for expressing so terribly well this ambiguity in Galadriel that the scene is meant to reveal, and justly so, I would say.
Of course, knowing her already in advance as the kind of wonderful angel she becomes later - having made her final choice when offered the Ring by Frodo, and having chosen rightly - it is for us almost unbearably disturbing and painful to see her at the time of 'The Hobbit', still struggling with the temptation within herself and the potential darkness she too harbours, and that only through sheer will-power she manages to vainquish.
But just at the same time we also see in Saruman the reverse arc, so to say: he will illustrate too clearly later what could very well indeed have happened also to Galadriel, had she not resisted victoriously her natural pride and ambition.
In this Dol Guldur scene, I see something even more revealing, which only now while writing this I realize has been discretely shown already since the White Council in AUJ: her own feminine pride, and a sort of rivalry between the two main wizards, both attracted somehow to the irresistible charm and power of this great Elvish being who has seduced them in spite of herself, just as she will say so plainly later to Frodo in her words revealing all the hidden tendencies in herself that would take over, were she to take the Ring; the last of those words she would utter as the Dark Queen are "All shall love me and despair..." (Remember even arrogant Feanor, to whom she refused those three wonderful golden hairs she will finally give to humble Gimli...)
In BOTFA, I was startled by how sweet Saruman's voice sounded when, entering Dol Guldur along with Elrond, he addressed Galadriel with these almost openly tender words "Do you need help, my lady?..."
And then I remembered immediately with how much elegant sweetness and his best equivalent to distinguished seductiveness he was already speaking to her during this White Council - to which, by the way, he, and not Elrond, had invited her to come...
Well, this too needs to be acknowledged as part of Galadriel's original way of being, which only much later she will finally free herself from, along with all the rest of those too powerful traits of personality that could have indeed made of her the Dark Queen replacing Sauron, she who had not been duped by his Annatar seductive appearance.
So yes, this scene here seems to me right on in its essence, if perhaps not in all of the details of its rendition on screen.
Thanks for asking the question and offering the links, Avandel!
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Iarhen
The Shire
Jul 24 2015, 5:05pm
Post #27 of 36
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Beautifully written. I agree completely.
"You have no power here, servant of Morgoth! You are nameless! Faceless! Formless! Go back to the Void from whence you came!"
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jul 24 2015, 6:54pm
Post #28 of 36
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Interesting thoughts, I enjoyed reading this....
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... and it's good to see you here again too!
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 24 2015, 10:50pm
Post #29 of 36
(426 views)
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And there are some excellent posts I missed, I think, too, after "embargoing" myself before the BOFA worldwide releases - it's great TORN maintains things so you can go back and look , and still share what you missed. I can only imagine what this board was like after the first premiere, when many of us were hiding in the Off-Topic and other boards!
It was probably really exciting but still, I was glad I went into BOFA unspoiled. More on-topic, I think I jumped a foot in my chair , the first time Galadriel rises up and is all dark - probably what "horror-director" Peter Jackson intended, or some sort of strong reaction.
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Jul 25 2015, 5:07am
Post #30 of 36
(408 views)
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I don't quite see it that way, as
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my longer post towards the end will explain, perhaps convincingly enough to make you change your mind... 
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
(This post was edited by mae govannen on Jul 25 2015, 5:08am)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Jul 25 2015, 5:12am
Post #31 of 36
(406 views)
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your appreciation, and your agreement too!
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Jul 25 2015, 5:30am
Post #32 of 36
(399 views)
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Thanks!...Those thoughts of mine
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actually surprised me when I was typing them as they came... particularly the one about Saruman in love with Galadriel just as Gandalf is!!! Do you remember anyone else on these Boards seeing and saying that before?! And yet, now it seems so obvious to me... One more reason for him to be jealous of Gandalf, then, whom she evidently prefers! Although Celeborn is of course the real one above all others in her heart...
As for my return, I'm once again checking upon the arrival of the EE, as I do from time to time, not wanting to miss it... and at other times I may show up simply because I'm missing good friends just like you!
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Jul 25 2015, 5:55am
Post #33 of 36
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I think I sank one foot into my seat!!!
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There wasn't much of that specific Galadriel scene in the spoilers (that, contrary to you, I deliberately imbibed, to prepare myself and not jump up too often in my seat) so I was unprepared for that one, and had to avert my eyes in silent shock...
Perhaps PJ did go a little overboard in his rendition, but not that much, I would say, considering the inner storm that must have been raging inside Galadriel when actually facing Sauron as the warrior that to some extent, like in her youth, she still was at that point of her personal evolution...which makes her all the more admirable for the final inner transformation towards her truer self accomplished later on.
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Iarhen
The Shire
Jul 27 2015, 5:20pm
Post #34 of 36
(338 views)
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That may be a little off-topic but wanted to bring it up to this illustrous-bunch of people (hehe)...
Regarding the actual confrontation between Galadriel and Sauron and the use of the light of the Phial against him... I was wondering, how was it that the Necromancer was banished by the light of her PhIal, when supposedly Sauron was absorbing all life/light around him to make himself stronger?
I mean, if he is this sort of light-vacuum, wouldnt he have grown stronger by the direct exposition to this light? Or did Galadriel sort of short-circuited him by giving him too much of it?
Actually, when you hear the background sounds of this confrontation, you kind of hear this electrical-shock theme whenever we see the Flaming Eye effect confronted by the Phial...
Anyway... Would love to hear your thoughts on this. I know this is not everyone's favorite scene, but I am absolutely OBSSESED with it.
"You have no power here, servant of Morgoth! You are nameless! Faceless! Formless! Go back to the Void from whence you came!"
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dubulous
Rohan
Jul 30 2015, 6:05pm
Post #35 of 36
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The effects still ruin it for me
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It's very unfortuante what they did with the effects, because without them it would probably have been my favourite moment in the entire movie. The terrible effects just ruin it completely and I can't really even watch it. I don't know how they managed to get that much worse from the FotR effects which weren't great either, but at least tolerable.
I wish they had kept it to something more understated but still powerful like the moment when Galadriel refuses to go with Gandalf a little earlier.
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Jul 31 2015, 10:55am
Post #36 of 36
(301 views)
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the original Light devoring Spider; she helped Melkor/Morgoth to kill the Two Trees and then rob the Silmarils, but after that, when rhey passed into Middle-earth he flew from her to keep the Silmarils; by the time of Sauron and of 'The Hobbit', there are only descendants of Ungoliant, and they aren't as efficient in absorbing light - if they do at all. I don't think this is one of the maleficent capacities either Sauron or the spiders are supposed to still have at that point in time.
Sorry for answering you with so much delay; Real Life is keeping me very busy these days!... 
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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