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NoelGallagher
Rohan
Jul 14 2015, 5:50pm
Post #1 of 17
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Shelobs Lair - a disappointment ?!
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I thought of bringing up that topic since i watched RotK yesterday.
From the books, i always highly anticipated to see that scene in the movie. After The Two Towers i went out of the cinema quite angry because it was switched to RotK (what i can understand now, been impatient there  )
The atmosphere while reading this chapter is amazing,haunting and always scared me.
Sadly, that didnt happen when i saw RotK at the premiere. The Stairs of Cirith Ungol are well done, the entrance and a few single shots inside Shelobs Lair are like i imagined them,Shelob herself is well designed too.
But overall i have to say that the lightning is way to bright in most of the scenes, which is my biggest complainment,it ruins the whole tension for me,together with the scene being a bit too short imho.
They did an awesome job in designing Shelob and her Lair, but why the hell the lightning is so bright ?!? 
Anyone with me ?
(This post was edited by NoelGallagher on Jul 14 2015, 5:50pm)
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Lissuin
Valinor
Jul 14 2015, 7:40pm
Post #2 of 17
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In both cases I just accepted that "It's a moving picture show and they have to use enough light so we can see the moving picture" and let my brain tell me it is pitch dark. I'm not afraid of spiders, but the environment they created gave me the dreaded sense of claustrophobia and being hunted that I got from the book, which made it scary enough. 
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jul 15 2015, 12:35pm
Post #4 of 17
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I was disappointed overall with the Shelob scene for the reasons you give: too short, not spooky enough. What scared me most in the book was that *unseen* creeping sense of dread and malevolence with intelligence behind it, not just a big hungry spider. The movie didn't convey that dark, nearly blind atmosphere to me at all. It's one of those "oh, well" moments for me when I rewatch the films.
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NoelGallagher
Rohan
Jul 15 2015, 2:16pm
Post #5 of 17
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It is hard to direct like it happened in the book? Dont know.. 
Since PJ is so arachnophobic i expected something great. But probably because of that Jackson wanted to handle and cover the scene quite fast?!
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the 13th warrior
Rivendell
Jul 15 2015, 7:21pm
Post #6 of 17
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Shelob made me cringe, but as for the sequence....
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Hello NoelG, The book to film comparison will never end, the endless wheel, but in this instance it's an interesting, very striking one.
Book: The suspense is much more drawn out. Sam and Frodo are a tight team fighting through the darkness and their fear. The phial is more useful and inspiring; it shines brighter and pulses with energy when the holder needs it too--like at end of the book Sam vs. Shelob battle. Sam's anger at Shelob for biting Frodo is somehow channelled into the phial's liquid and it blasts the spider with light. Bursts of Elvish prayer come out of Sam; he doesn't know why but he feels the Force and the Phial is a Force unto itself.
Also the Professor is skillful at raising a false hope that the hobbits might escape unharmed--Frodo honestly thinks they've made it when he makes woeful choice to separate from Sam and run to the end of the tunnel. JRR keeps Shelob hidden, hinted at, a scary figure in darkness, until Sam finally beholds her wrapping up Frodo. JRR also gave her some personality, detailed her methods, her tunnel system, past encounters with victims--we understand her fiendish brain, how angry she was at being defied by Sam, the light, swords.
And the book version clearly shows the great love and loyalty Sam feels for Frodo especially when he must take the ring and abandon him. Also it gave Sam some ring time, and he saw the world through the eyes of a ringbearer. Also, the huge irony that Frodo is not dead, just in a spider poison coma, is much more powerful in the books, as Sam realizes his mistake too late as the gates to the orc tower shut him out.
Movie: Pretty straight forward action and it reminded me of Aliens where Sigourney Weaver is in the dark, knows something is there or maybe she doesn't, and the alien uncoils and drops down to start chasing her. Usually this is shown with us the audience seeing the critter first, then she turns around and finally sees it--Frodo does something very similar when he finally sees the spider.
Wouldn't call it the most drop dead suspenseful scene--the spider is big and scary, moves well, sprinting, squeezing through openings. Elijah Wood acts properly terrified and flees convincingly. Very good scene of him being taunted by Gollum when he's stuck in the webbing--best suspense in the sequence when he hacks his way out, really desperate to live, not be eaten.
Sam battling the spider is a great highlight--you can finally see how huge Shelob is--very well done but it never transcends IMHO the basic outmatched human vs. horrible creature situation. She is cunning with tactics, knocking away his sword, the Phial, jabbing, stabbing at him. She seems to be winning, but Sam twists, turns, ducks, climbs, jumps, rolls and finally stabs her. The phial is an afterthought. Too bad, I could've used a light laser blast at the big arachnid before she scuttled off.
The 13th Warrior, Left Field Caliphate
"From the scroll rooms of Gondor....."
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NoelGallagher
Rohan
Jul 15 2015, 7:26pm
Post #7 of 17
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for your very detailed respond, i really appreciate that and agree in most of your terms.
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the 13th warrior
Rivendell
Jul 16 2015, 6:33pm
Post #8 of 17
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Mortal peril of Frodo and others.....
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Hello NoelG, thanks for the props. Would like to recycle a thought I had years ago when LOTR first came out.
In terms of pure peril as in you are beset by enemies and are the only one that can handle it, no help available, I think Frodo/Sam vs Shelob and Arwen/Frodo vs the Black Riders, Flight to the Ford, are as dead up against it as anyone in the movie LOTR epic. I am weighting it based on the size or numbers of the menace, apparent hopelessness, chances of escape, and also consequences of what happens if they fall.
Most of the other characters travel in safety of groups and/or have guardians--Gimli, Legolas, Aragon are pretty much a trio. Merry and Pippin are under the watchful eye of Gandalf, Treebeard and Rivendell, Lorien, Rohan, Gondor rulers much of the time. Eowyn and Merry are in great peril in battle outside Minas
Tiriith but are also bailed out by their allies, fellow combatants. Gandalf goes on solo missions with Shadowfax at times, but he is a wizard, the big big power level Istari on the block.
The idea that the whole quest will fail if Frodo can't get out of the web trap and is eaten, or Arwen is captured, killed, Frodo taken is, pretty mindblowing. The spider is just a few feet from Frodo as he ferociously hacks at web to free himself. Later Sam has to take on the big spider all by himself, though at least he has the sword and the phial. To me this was as big as Gandalf vs the Balrog, which pits two powerful supernatural beings, one good, one evil, against each other. Sam is just a halfling, has nothing but his love of Frodo and his fighting spirit vs. the monster.
Meantime, Arwen has the entire armed and loaded Nine Ringwaiths' cavalry after her. And one rider reaches out his hand and is a few inches from Frodo's face before Arwen kicks her Rivendell charger into higher gear and flees. Frodo is sick at death's door, of no help to her. So it's up to the brave elf princess to save the day based on nothing more than riding skills and sheer nerve until they cross the magic waters and she conjures up the spell.
Other than the ultimate scene in the Cracks of Doom, Frodo and Gollum battling for the ring on the brink, can't think of too many other times the quest as Galadriel put it hung on the edge of a knife. In one instant, failure could mean the Dark Lord wins. So here's to the bravery of Frodo/Sam/Arwen, for facing down the face of hopelessness and triumphing.
The 13th Warrior, thanks, regards,
"From the scroll rooms of Gondor...."
(This post was edited by the 13th warrior on Jul 16 2015, 6:35pm)
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NoelGallagher
Rohan
Jul 16 2015, 8:33pm
Post #9 of 17
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and pushed on a bigger scale than my original question was
But these are decent comparisons, which i have to admit never really thought of, maybe given them just a blink. You widened my horizon! 
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jul 17 2015, 4:12pm
Post #10 of 17
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I really like the Arwen/Frodo flight to the ford scene
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for all the reasons you so vividly describe. I really do feel like fate is hanging on a thread when I watch it, even if I know better. That Nazgul's hand reaching out, and Arwen getting a cut on her face about the same time from a branch: shivers down the spine every time I watch it! Such a relief when she calls up the river at the end to drown them all. Somehow, the pacing and suspense were put together superbly well in this sequence, at least for me.
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the 13th warrior
Rivendell
Jul 17 2015, 10:10pm
Post #11 of 17
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Credit where credit is due....
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Hello Sir Noel, House of Gallagher--Thanks for posting. Really nice compliment, widening someone's horizon. Whatever "deep think" I do on Tolkien is because of two men initially. The Professor himself and Paul H. Kocher book "Master of Middle Earth" - Kocher, Robley Evans and William Ready were early 70s scholar/writers who probed into the huge "What Tolkien Means" topic.
From JRR: He is incredible in the way he shows people, places, things that have a role to play in someone's grand Middle Earth drama--Gandalf tells Frodo that he and Bilbo were "meant" to find the ring, as Gollum was meant to have it and lose it. Voices come into Frodo's head, at Amon Hen, end of book FOTR, the Dark Lord, but also a voice for goodness, Gandalf? or an even higher power?
At Minas Tirith battle, Eowyn fulfills prophecy that no man shall kill the witch king. And Merry helping her!! He uses a sword forged by ancient people who fought and lost to the Witch King centuries ago. JRR even says the sword blacksmith would have been glad to know its fate, to be used by a humble hobbit to help kill one of Middle Earth's deadliest beings. This is the kinda writing JRR did that would make my spine tingle!!
Kocher really probed this. I've read his chapter "Comsic Order" a few hundred times. It's full of questions about who meant for Bilbo/Frodo to get ring? What kind of beings are they? How do they work? Who do they pick? Won't try and re create it here, but in a Mallorn tree nutshell, good powers need, find and work through beings that are usually unaware of this, but do all that good requires them to do, be steadfast, bear the burden, go forward no matter how dark it is.
Hence back to your starter post, the book Sam feels that spirit and is possesed by it, and his heart channels into the phial to blast evil Shelob. Another JRR prose stunner, a powerful emotional scene for Sam, until now a bit of a bumbler who does his best, and does he come through. As close to a direct intervention as the Valar will allow, those are high elven prayers Sam is saying, and what a triumph. The quest is saved. Frodo is down for the count, the forces choose Sam to shoulder the burden, this is all why I love JRR.
The 13th Warrior, Left Field Caliphate,
"From the scroll rooms of Gondor....."
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the 13th warrior
Rivendell
Jul 17 2015, 10:26pm
Post #12 of 17
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Hello CuriousG, nice to find an Arwen appreciator. Always felt she was a welcome addition to the movie LOTR family, enjoyed Liv Tyler's acting throughout, though quite a few did not.
That flight is a movie FOTR highlight. PJ was clever, revealing the Ringwraiths one by one, until Arwen tells Aragorn, there are 5 behind you, where the other 4 are i do not know. Then she finds out.
The way it unfolds, the lone rider essentially since frodo is more or less comatose, galloping along the wilderland path, the forest ambush, and the chase across the great plains before the river were well edited and the music is superb. The face cut was really a fine detail.
Also, it's a hinting of her loss of immortality, as she seems to gives some her elf life force to Frodo, so he will be spared and live. That lovey dovey bridge scene with Aragorn intrigues me. She tells him she chooses a mortal life, because she already knows she has taken a big step to being mortal? Did her life force start to ebb that day she saved Frodo? She's getting ill by ROTK time and Sauron's evil spells are harming her health. What a grand noble sacrifice by the elven princess, future mother to the restored kings of Gondor.
Really appreciate Liv/Arwen and what they did for the Quest.
The 13th Warrior, Left Field Caliphate
"From the scroll rooms of Gondor...."
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zarabia
Tol Eressea
Jul 18 2015, 12:11am
Post #13 of 17
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I was very pleasantly surprised by Liv Tyler's Arwen
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I had never been that impressed by anything I'd seen Tyler in before and I was a little horrified at that the thought of her as Arwen. But I must say, I found her quite convincing. She gave a lovely performance and did an excellent job conveying the grace and wisdom that Tolkien emphasized in the appendix.
I also think it was ingenious of PJ to replace Glorfindel, iconic as he is to many, with Arwen. It avoids the confusion of an extraneous character (he didn't seem that way in the book but would have in the film) while strengthening Arwen's role. She got to be proactive and heroic without becoming the "warrior princess" that some feared she'd become or without stealing any of Eowyn's thunder.
So you can add me to the list of those who loved the flight to the ford; it's one of my favorite scenes.
You realize that life goes fast
It's hard to make the good things last
You realize the sun doesn't go down
It's just an illusion caused by the world spinning 'round
~Do You Realize?, The Flaming Lips
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OldestDaughter
Rohan
Jul 18 2015, 12:40am
Post #14 of 17
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I love the Flight to the Ford scene
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I feel that it is one of the most incredible scenes in the six movies. My mom loves it when Arwen tells her horse to ride faster and when it starts to gallop even faster. I do too. Actually, a lot of my friends love that scene too. I think Liv Tyler's acting was superb, and she was the perfect elf.
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the 13th warrior
Rivendell
Jul 19 2015, 9:22am
Post #15 of 17
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Hello zarabia, I wonder how much Liv suffered from the stigma of being famous rocker Steven Tyler's daughter early on in her career. Took people a while to take her seriously, and notice she is very good, a legitimate talent?? What makes the Arwen created character, IMHO, so significant is that she makes such a sacrifice trading immortality for a very short time with Aragorn, who I think was married to her for about a century. Mother to a new line of rulers. And she is a steadfast character, like Sam, who always believes somehow, someway the quest can be achieved. Keeps the occasionally despairing Aragorn on point and encouraged. Can hear Gimli say, "now there's a lass worth fighting for."
Have you ever seen "Inventing the Abbotts" late 1990s with Liv and amazing collection of then up and comers Joaquin Phoenix, Jennifer Connelly, Billy Crudup?? Would like to recommend it if you haven't. It was the movie that made me think Liv has got something, the x factor. There is a hint of Arwen to come, as Liv is a beautiful rich debutante in the neighborhood, but also a spunky, kind, thoughtful, sensitive girl, who drives sports cars, likes climbing into barns, throws rocks at abandoned trucks. She slowly forms relationship with Phoenix, who while he was evil Commodus/Gladiator, showed he could play a strong romantic lead--artistic kid with a tough edge from humble economic background who secretly wants to work in the stage,theater. It's a social melodrama with some dark family secrets. Really fine film. Set in '50s, has some American Graffiti sense of nostalgia.
Liv's acting showed a lot of simple decency and common sense, voice of reason, again, not unlike Arwen.
The 13th Warrior, Left Field Caliphate
"From the scroll rooms of Gondor...."
(This post was edited by the 13th warrior on Jul 19 2015, 9:25am)
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the 13th warrior
Rivendell
Jul 19 2015, 9:30am
Post #16 of 17
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Hello Oldest Daughter, my mom is quite elderly but we have seen all LOTR and Hobbit movies. She honestly likes Audrey Hepburn and Humphrey Bogart films better than modern movies, but she thought LOTR,Hobbits were all very good. Liked the Flight, she likes horses, and said the movies never seemed like 3 hours because they move at such a strong pace, keeps the momentum going.
The 13th Warrior, Left Field Caliphate,
"From the scroll rooms of Gondor...."
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OldestDaughter
Rohan
Jul 20 2015, 1:03am
Post #17 of 17
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My mom loves the movies, all six of them!
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Which I'm very fortunate.
It's cool that your mother likes the movies as well. Not all parents like those movies!
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