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lionoferebor
Rohan
Jul 10 2015, 10:57pm
Post #1 of 27
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The Old Tapestry
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The old tapestry of the family tree of Durin that Bard finds at the merchants stall in DOS, where did it come from and how did it end up in Esgaroth?
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DainPig
Gondor
Jul 10 2015, 11:19pm
Post #2 of 27
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probaly was made by the own Lake man!
As we can see in the second movie, the came of The King Under the Mountain was a prophecy and became a legend, a popular legend.
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 11 2015, 12:31am
Post #3 of 27
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From the EE:
"It's been a long time since they've seen any riches...the old tales bring them hope..."
Although the tapestry looks like it was once rich and grand - elaborate embroidery, tattered gold lace - like the WETA books talk about the faded textiles of Laketown, and we see tattered banners hanging about. So I am gonna guess it was made after Smaug came, but before Esgaroth really degenerated...there must have been an influx of refugees from Dale, and perhaps someone from Dale crafted it "in exile" as a symbol of memory and hope.
Because tho the dragon came, Dale was beautiful "peaceful and prosperous" and with the dwarves gone, and much of Dale destroyed, I can see someone crafting something like this to remember what was, and could be again. Perhaps it was even made by a "refugee dwarf" who had been in Esgaroth for a time, but left after a while, and left behind some things that found their way to a junk shop.
I love this kind of stuff, even it it is only onscreen a few seconds. If I were one of the "breakdown artists" I would have been crying at having to tear the tapestry up, as re the WETA book evidently it was specially woven.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jul 11 2015, 10:19am
Post #4 of 27
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PJ DOES, give you some of the answers
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in his commentaries for DoS..
yet!... people would rather speculate...
than look it, up?
Why is that...?
Bom is convinced it came from the "Hall of Kings"
in Erebor...{LOTS of Tapestries, THERE}
but was SOLD in the Marketplace of Dale,
by the Dwave vendor to a Laketown man
before Smaug arrived.
THAT was a sublime film plot device
to underscore the chanting of the "Prophesy"
A RIDDLE... Bard needed to solve..?
bom
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by Bombadil on Jul 11 2015, 10:21am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 11 2015, 12:43pm
Post #5 of 27
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Well, here's the tapestry: http://www.thelandofshadow.com/...ofDurinTapestry2.jpg
My guess is that it was made by a craftsperson of Esgaroth probably to commemorate the two hundredth anniversary (in TA 2789) of the crowning of King Thror.
The curious bit is that the birth years of Thorin II (Oakenshield) and his siblings should be later as Thorin in the films is younger than both Balin and Dwalin.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 11 2015, 12:47pm)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jul 12 2015, 12:08am
Post #6 of 27
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www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Jul 12 2015, 11:26am
Post #7 of 27
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For comparison, here is a clickable picture of the tapestry in its faded, shredded condition we see in DOS: link
The tapestry is beautiful, with vibrant colors (ravens made of fire!), runes and ornate symbols. It seems like such a labor of love that I think it was not made by men, but a dwarf - maybe a refugee from Erebor as Avandel suggests - someone who had personal interests and emotional investment in the return of the Mountain King. It's also unlikely that a human would have had access - or interest - for detailed information about the ancestors in the line of Durin, their order of succession, dates of birth etc.
The artist who made the tapestry included two verses (the first and the third) of the poem about the return of the king, which indicates that the tapestry cannot have been made in pre-Smaug Erebor. Maybe this has already been discussed in some thread I have missed, but it's interesting that the last verse has been inexplicably changed in the movie, from this original:
The streams shall run in gladness,
The lakes shall shine and burn,
All sorrow fail and sadness
At the Mountain-king’s return!
....To this:
And the bells shall ring in gladness
At the Mountain King’s return
But all shall fail in sadness
And the Lake will shine and burn.
In the movie-verse the happy and optimistic poem has been "corrupted" over time, to make the king's return sound ominous instead of a thing to celebrate. We don't know (?) if the change was made by someone on purpose, who then spread the "wrong version" among the people of Laketown, or if it just accidentally changed over time. What was originally a happy, hopeful poem was purposefully made into a "prophecy." In the end it works to make Bard suspicious and challenge Thorin's plans to reclaim Erebor, leading to this wonderful scene. 
Bard didn't buy the tapestry, so when Smaug came it must have been destroyed together with the rest of the Laketown.
(Somehow, looking at this screencap now gives me the feeling that the dwarves are indeed "the right size" (the way they see themselves) and it's humans that are just disagreeably tall...  )
(This post was edited by Ilmatar on Jul 12 2015, 11:37am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 12 2015, 3:23pm
Post #8 of 27
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Even if the tapestry was made by a Dwarf, it seems to have been intended for a Mannish market. Even when runes are used, they spell out words in English (for Westron) not Khuzdul. I think that we must dismiss the years given for the births of Thorin, Frerin and DIs as an artefact of Tolkien's Appendices.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Jul 12 2015, 4:03pm
Post #9 of 27
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Runes spell out English words also in the stone carvings in the walls of Erebor (the treasure hall, above the secret door on the inside etc.) - I think the runes in both, Erebor and the tapestry, are not as much intended either for dwarves or men, but for the benefit of the movie audience. This way someone familiar with the Elder Futhark runes can read them - and that's another thing, they are not in the Khuzdul language and not in Angerthas Erebor writing style, both of which we could expect that dwarves used in their own realm and their own handiwork.
I think we are supposed to user our imagination and, in our minds, replace the language and the font with their dwarvish counterparts...
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 12 2015, 4:27pm
Post #10 of 27
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Of course, the tapestry was found in Lake-town and was written using both Dwarf-runes and (presumably) Westron. And the verses were from a Mannish song. So we have to consider all of that as well.
This isn't a question that I expect has a definitive answer. We can only make our best guesses.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 12 2015, 7:26pm
Post #11 of 27
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oooh - this is all fascinating IMO - thanks for posting and to Otaku-sempai too
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If the actual verses have been discussed, I missed it, so OMG thank you for pointing that out - it brought home just how much the prophecy WAS changed - tho it begs the question I think - if the prophecy is well-known - evidently by Thorin as well, since he mentions it "Will you see the prophecy fulfilled?" and I assume that means DWARVES in general know the prophecy (which also would beg the question as to why, possibly, the Seven Kingdoms wouldn't join Thorin on his quest - OR, possibly, it was one of those things where, yes, there is a prophecy, but then again you can't really believe the being who is to fulfill that prophecy is finally HERE, and who was to say that being would be Thorin Oakenshield?).....AND
if this prophecy is well known, why the Laketowners are so gosh-darn happy except for Bard - tho I can assume like in modern days it's just too easy to ignore stuff you really don't want to think about - e.g., Thorin "when did the people of Laketown come to our aid but for the promise of rich reward?" And to be fair, it also means the dwarves would be ignoring those last lines of the movie verses as well. But those lines can also be kind of cryptic.
Thank you!!! for pointing out the actual details of the runes - for those of us who don't know runes, and collectively just think of runes as "runes" - OMG the eye for detail! Both you and Otaku-sempai make some wonderful points....
Being someone who loves handwork and is always drooling over the textiles and costumes of PJ's Middle Earth, I totally agree with:
The tapestry is beautiful, with vibrant colors (ravens made of fire!), runes and ornate symbols. It seems like such a labor of love that I think it was not made by men, but a dwarf - maybe a refugee from Erebor as Avandel suggests - someone who had personal interests and emotional investment in the return of the Mountain King. It's also unlikely that a human would have had access - or interest - for detailed information about the ancestors in the line of Durin, their order of succession, dates of birth etc.
Otaku-sempai makes a good point about the "mannishness" but then again, I am imagining, that if an exiled dwarf were living in Esgaroth - that being a trading center in time, these intermingling cultures would all be influencing each other "this was the center of all trade in the North". Perhaps not even a dwarf exile, but a rich "merchant dwarf" living in Esgaroth made the tapestry after the fall of Erebor - a dwarf that might have picked up "mannish" influences. And somehow as Esgaroth fell into decay, the tapestry was sold? left behind?
Because I do agree that this looks like a carefully made, rich, labor of love. The embroidery and weaving is LUSH as are the gorgeous colors used - interestingly, only the line of Thror to Thorin and Frerin is outlined in gold piping - sexism in dwarf culture? Because Dis' shield is not:
Other stuff - this tapestry, as movie props go, is actually IMO fairly big - when Bard is holding it, it's almost like a rug:
The colors are just gorgeous IMO - flame and gorgeous blues! It's a shame it's only on screen for seconds - IMO this NEEDS to be in a museum!
And finally, I found the tassels and beadwork interesting - IMO these are definitely of "mannish" influence, as the beads are glass - perhaps the "Eastern" influence of described by the WETA books for the thought behind the Laketowners' costumes - Turkish? Indian? And the border of the tapestry doesn't look dwarvish. We see other "Eastern" beadwork/studs re Hilda Bianca's wonderful hat:
All in all, IMO, the tapestry is an amazing work - I wish an Appendices had talked more about it!
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Kim
Valinor
Jul 12 2015, 8:15pm
Post #12 of 27
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I never noticed that the ravens were made of fire - cool detail! I don't think I ever noticed the beads on the tassels. Neat thought that maybe they were influenced by the designs of the people of Laketown as Avandel mentions. Re: her comment about the outlining in gold, to my eye it looks like it's only done for the direct (male) line of descent as Thror's brother doesn't have it either. But again, wow, such a tiny detail.
Also never knew that the runes translated into Westron/English, not Khuzdul. I wonder if perhaps the dwarves didn't want to reveal the actual Khuzdul since this was being created outside of Erebor (as opposed to those huge tapestries hanging in the Gallery of the Kings, although I don't know if we can tell if there are runes on them?) Or maybe as you say it was just done for the benefit of the movie audience. What do the runes say?
P.S. Yes, those men seem way too tall! Especially in those silly helmets. 
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Jul 12 2015, 9:07pm
Post #13 of 27
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...In trying to answer, or rather, ponder together if there can be answers to these essential questions:
if the prophecy is well-known - evidently by Thorin as well, since he mentions it "Will you see the prophecy fulfilled?" and I assume that means DWARVES in general know the prophecy (which also would beg the question as to why, possibly, the Seven Kingdoms wouldn't join Thorin on his quest - OR, possibly, it was one of those things where, yes, there is a prophecy, but then again you can't really believe the being who is to fulfill that prophecy is finally HERE, and who was to say that being would be Thorin Oakenshield?)
- If the poem/prophecy was indeed of mannish origin (as it is in the book), then we can assume that most men in the region would be familiar with it. But were dwarves that familiar with the oral traditions of men? It does not seem like there are dwarves living in Esgaroth, "the world of men", at the time of Thorin's quest at least.
- Then again, the prophecy is ABOUT the dwarves' lost homeland and their king, so they must have heard some rumors, some version(s) of it.
- Thorin was aware of the prophecy - but clearly the original, positive form, or he would not have asked if the people wanted it fulfilled. (Or then he took a change that the people would go along with the "promised riches" part, even if they knew about the "alternative ending"?) It seems like the prophecy had changed somewhere along the line, but Thorin was not aware of this...
- ...And neither were the people gathered in front of the Master's house - except Bard. Either other people knew the positive original version and only Bard knew the changed, ominous version - which would not make sense - or then all were aware of the new version (or both versions? ) but, as you suggest, chose to ignore the end than sounded like a warning, preferring to concentrate on the verses that promised riches and prosperity.
- If the Seven Kingdoms knew about the poem, and still refused to follow Thorin in his quest, they must either dismiss it for some reason - maybe as "man-made nonsense" - or then they had heard the new, badly ending version but neglected to mention it to Thorin, which again would make no sense...
- Since the king who "lost" Erebor was Thror, and he was no longer there to reclaim it, it's logical IMO the presume that any surviving offspring of his would take his place in the prophecy and become "the king who returns" by proxy. In other words, both men and dwarves alike may have seen Thorin as the one and only candidate for such venture - the only one who could fulfill the prophecy. "I have the only right" - even if Bard was reluctant to comply.
Oh dear. I have never given this scene much thought before, and now it became an overload.
More questions than answers... 
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Jul 12 2015, 9:14pm
Post #14 of 27
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Yes, it seems like the direct line of succession, from Dain I onwards, is marked with gold piping - the direct male line, as you noted - but does this mean that a dwarf kingdom cannot be ruled by a queen? And also, why is Frerin's shield marked with it too, while Thor's brothers' shields are not?
It's a good point that the dwarf (?) who made the tapestry may have precisely opted not to use Khuzdul, unless men became more aware of it and familiar with it.
Now I must find the tapestries you mention, in the Gallery of Kings, for closer inspection in case there are runes after all...!
The runes in the top left of the tapestry simply say "King Under the Mountain". Those in the first Durin's shield spell out his nickname "the Deathless." The rest of the runes (from left to right, under the animal symbols) say "Iron Hills". "Erebor" and "Ered Mithrin".
P.S. The feeling I got regarding the "right height" was clearer while looking at the large screencap, but yes, men are just too tall...
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 12 2015, 9:32pm
Post #15 of 27
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I had not considered that the inclusion of the verses imply that the tapestry was woven AFTER the fall of Erebor and Dale; more evidence that it was likely of Mannish origin. It was still likely produced before the Battle of Moria or there should be death dates for Fundin, Frerin, and Thror at least.
Most of the Runes are easy to translate just from context, but here we go:
- The runes in the upper left corner read: KING UNDER THE MOUNTAIN.
- The runes under the boar read: IRON HILLS.
- The runes beneath the raven on the right read: EREBOR.
- The runes under the ram's head read: ERED MITHRIN (Grey Mountains).
- The runes under the first entry for Durin read: THE DEATHLESS.
- Most of the runes beneath names indicate numerical values (Durin I, Durin II, Durin III, Durin IV, Thrain I, etc.).
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 12 2015, 9:47pm)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 12 2015, 11:10pm
Post #16 of 27
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I just think it's important to remember that dwarves and men DID mingle together....we see the AUJ shots of Dale, dwarves selling goods and so on; Thorin worked in human villages, and LOL Thorin's disgusted? impatient? comment in the EE "This, Master Baggins, is the world of men" which sounded like Thorin was pretty familiar with mannish culture, even if not enthused about it.
So I would not be surprised at the picking up of influences from each other, in certain settings where the two cultures would intermingle - just like, I suppose, if we look hard, there are possibly Elvish influences scattered through Laketown - just think, when the elves give food to the Laketowners in those beautiful bottles - that might be the kind of thing a thrifty, poor Laketowner would save, for storage later....so now, if there hadn't been before, there are Elvish motifs in Dale, that someone might use again in crafting something, because that's how craftspeople are, getting inspiration everywhere.
Oh dear. I have never given this scene much thought before, and now it became an overload.
Never. And this whole post is another one where I have learned a lot, and also, it's part of a very favorite scene that I get chills from, every time, with the music and the way it is done. And it leads directly to another amazing scene with Thorin and that epic, epic scene and "I have the only right"
And now I have to watch DOS again
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jul 13 2015, 12:12am
Post #17 of 27
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They should have kept the original one
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There's one thing that makes no sense to me, and that is the prophecy - I mean, if it's predicting disaster then WHY is Bard the only one remembering that line? Everyone else is remembering the bit about treasure, they're all excited about it. I think the original one would have been better, because you could get both a "yay treasure" and a warning of doom out of it - different interpretations. I just think it would have fit the movie better.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Jul 13 2015, 7:33am
Post #18 of 27
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Oh yes, you are right, certainly there must have been influences picked from each other by both of the cultures (although dwarves may have been more "resistant" to human influence than vice versa). I don't know if there ever were many dwarves living in Esgaroth, but in the old days it might have made a natural environment for an industrious dwarf artisan/merchant or a few - and even if not, trading with Erebor would have lead to some features to pass over into the world of men. So I agree - among those influences must have also been some knowledge of beliefs, poems and other forms of oral traditions - in other words, dwarves must have been familiar with the prophecy as well (whether one or both versions, I can't conclude at the moment - need more coffee... ).
(This post was edited by Ilmatar on Jul 13 2015, 7:37am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 13 2015, 2:46pm
Post #19 of 27
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The verses on the tapestry, although somewhat altered, are not in any way ominous. Like the original version, they are exuberant and full of hope.
The lord of silver fountains,
The King of carven stone
The King beneath the Mountain,
Shall come into his own.
The woods shall wave on mountains
And grass beneath the sun;
His wealth shall flow in fountains
And the rivers golden run.
And then there is the altered verse that is omitted from the tapestry:
And the bells shall ring in gladness
At the Mountain-king’s return;
But all shall fail in sadness
And the lake will shine and burn.
Apparently Peter Jackson's final verse of the 'prophesy' was something that the residents of Lake-town preferred to ignore.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 13 2015, 2:59pm)
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Jul 13 2015, 10:21pm
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There is another, slightly different version of the original poem/prophecy, with one "extra" verse in the middle:
The King beneath the mountains,
The King of carven stone,
The lord of silver fountains
Shall come into his own!
His crown shall be upholden,
His harp shall be restrung,
His halls shall echo golden
To songs of yore re-sung.
The woods shall wave on mountains
And grass beneath the sun;
His wealth shall flow in fountains
And the rivers golden run.
The streams shall run in gladness,
The lakes shall shine and burn,
All sorrow fail and sadness
At the Mountain-king’s return!
Provided by: Ainulindale
(This post was edited by Ilmatar on Jul 13 2015, 10:22pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 13 2015, 11:28pm
Post #21 of 27
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Yep. I just didn't have any particular reason to include the complete song from Tolkien's text. Even so, he noted that the folk of Lake-town had even more verses.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jul 14 2015, 10:16am
Post #23 of 27
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Yes, in the book thorin pulled out a harp and played in Bag End
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...at the Unexpected Party. Later, Fili and Kili were drawn to golden harps hanging on the walls in the great hall of Erebor and they sat and played rather than immediately pick over the huge treasure pile!
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Jul 14 2015, 2:12pm
Post #24 of 27
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Yes, that's right, I had forgotten  - thanks for pointing that out. It's been years since I last read the Hobbit, and looks like it's time to read it again (as soon as I have finished re-reading the LotR, since it's been even longer with that...).
It would have been something to see and hear Thorin play the harp in the AUJ... (A smaller harp, I presume, than the one here - artist unknown). And the second picture must be from the Bilbo's Journal.
 
(This post was edited by Ilmatar on Jul 14 2015, 2:24pm)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 14 2015, 3:54pm
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I also haven't re-read the Hobbit in a long time, deliberately as I just didn't want the book details "pestering" me through the film the way they did in my mind through LOTR.
A bit OT - Was watching the full Hannibal SDCC panel and it popped into my head when the producer mentioned you can do more building of a character in a TV series, re the Hobbit films, how many lovely details mentioned by TORn members had to be "compressed"...
But at least we did get some lovely music and I think I remember one of the WETA books or an Appendices? where PJ is talking about wrestling with the "instrument problem" e.g. I guess it's one of the things that works in the book - carrying instruments - vs. in the film where the reality of that might have been a problem. Or not - after all, in the film they had baggage ponies that get lost.
*Gloomily* I think they could have at least had a golden harp of some kind at Erebor tho, even if it was just something in left in a corner....ah well, that is a different thread, and am sure the Hobbit will be remade and some other director will be leaping on those details, trying to do something "different". For me it will be very difficult to do more than the Bag End Misty Mountains scene, IMO one of the most beautiful scenes ever put on film.
I'll always think it was one of the coolest things in the film, when Dormouse a while back noted that the gold running across the floor in the forges echoed:
His wealth shall flow in fountains
And the rivers golden run.
E.g. from Spark Notes' summary:
At Lake Town, the barrels are brought to shore when boats from the town row out and cast ropes toward the floaters, and while the men are away, Bilbo frees his companions from the barrels. Everyone has survived, but they are cramped, wet, and hungry.
. Thorin, filled with a new sense of purpose, strides proudly up to the town hall and declares to the Master of Lake Town that he, a descendant of the King under the Mountain, has returned to claim his inheritance. The people of the town rejoice. They have all heard the stories of how gold flowed down the river when the King under the Mountain reigned before Smaug came. They treat the dwarves and even Bilbo like kings.
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Thang you Berry Buch! O-S//
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