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emre43
Rohan
Jul 10 2015, 9:19am
Post #1 of 15
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The Witch King and Khamul
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Just a few quick questions. I have read most of Tolkien's works but was wondering if there were some answers to these questions that I may have missed.
1. Why was the Witch-King given said title? What did he do to earn it?
2. Why was the Witch-King the leader of the Nazgul?
3. Why was Khamul his second-in-command?
Thanks in advance 😊
Two things I love most, good horses and beautiful women, And when I die I hope they tan this old hide of mine and make it into a ladies riding saddle, So I can rest in peace between the two things I love.
- Russell J. Larsen
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jul 10 2015, 1:06pm
Post #2 of 15
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I know of no definitive answers - Anyone?
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1. Someone needed to be "King"
2. Kings are usually "leaders" 
3. Someone had to be "second-in-command"
I think this is just another case of Tolkien not "filling up the corners". 
Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
-JRR Tolkien
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emre43
Rohan
Jul 10 2015, 1:34pm
Post #3 of 15
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Two things I love most, good horses and beautiful women, And when I die I hope they tan this old hide of mine and make it into a ladies riding saddle, So I can rest in peace between the two things I love.
- Russell J. Larsen
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jul 10 2015, 1:45pm
Post #4 of 15
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1. The Nine Rings were given to both sorcerers and rulers, as I recall, and maybe the Witch-King was both?
Alternatively, he may have been given that name by the Dunedain of Arnor as a sort of "Dark Lord" equivalent. He was not just King of Angmar, but he practiced the dark arts too, making him a Witch-King. Maybe he never called himself the Witch-King. But it's odd that his name was never known, if he was King of Angmar. He wasn't called, for example, Witch-King Borzat the First, just the Witch-King. Maybe the secrecy of even his name enhanced his creepiness, and maybe like the Mouth of Sauron, he'd forgotten his name. (But then Khamul kept his.)
2. I'm guessing he was leader since he was most powerful. The biggest brute runs the show. No idea if he was smartest or not.
3. Knowing next to nothing about Khamul, I'd guess he was 2nd most powerful, and so on down the line.
Those are my guesses. What are yours?
Keep the questions coming, Emre! They're fun to think about.
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squire
Half-elven
Jul 10 2015, 2:13pm
Post #5 of 15
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1. Why was the Witch-King given said title? I don't remember if this is ever explained explicitly, as most of the material on the Witch-King's origins is in the LotR Appendices which are sketchy. My impression is that this Nazgul conquered or founded the kingdom of Angmar in the northern reaches of the Misty Mountains and on their western slope. From here he threatened the northern Dunedain kingdom of Arnor and its three successor states, eventually subverting and conquering two of them.
I am guessing his title came from the Dunedain, who at first assumed their enemy to the East was a mortal King like themselves, perhaps a Black Numenorean; but they soon perceived he had dark magical powers and was therefore not just a King, but a "Witch-King".
What did he do to earn it? What was witchy about him? One of his 'magical' effects on the Northlands was to bring about a kind of climate change, whereby the growing season was shortened and winters made harsher and longer. This served to weaken the settled populations of Arnor at least as much as his wars and attacks did. There is also a mention that he was, in his mortal life before becoming enslaved to his Ring, a king and sorceror in his own right; the Ring, we presume, gave him additional power and insight into black magic, not to mention whatever tutorials Sauron provided.
2. Why was the Witch-King the leader of the Nazgul? Within the story, the question might be better phrased, why did the leader of the Nazgul become the Witch-King? If I remember, this wraith was dispatched North either by Sauron's defeated spirit, or by an understanding of what Sauron (rather under the weather at that point, having lost his Ring and been destroyed and all) would have wanted, to weaken the northern Dunedain kingdom pending the Dark Lord's recovery and return. The presumption is that the Witch-King as the most important and potent of the Nazgul was most able to function independently without Sauron's immediate direction, and so he was the one who went north to cause havoc.
Outside the story, from Tolkien's point of view, the creation of the Witch-King is mixed up with the creation of the ringwraiths or Nazgul during the point in his story-writing when he was working out who was who, and just what the lore of the Rings of Power was. At one point the character of the Witch-King was conceived of not as one of the ringwraiths, but as an old enemy of Gandalf's, a renegade Istar (wizard) gone to the bad! This differentiating of the Witch-King from all the other Nazgul in terms of agency and past history shows throughout the story.
3. Why was Khamul his second-in-command? This is hard to answer without saying 'just because'. The naming of Khamul seems an almost accidental part of his appearance in the appendices. Mimicking the chronicles of medieval times with their somewhat random array of names and details in some places but not others, Tolkien came up with a name for the Nazgul who reoccupied Dol Guldur after the Necromancer (Sauron) was evicted by the White Council. At that point the Witch-King was no longer in Angmar, having been defeated by Gondor and the Elves. He was presumably ruling over the Nazgul's HQ in Minas Morgul and supervising the rebuilding of Mordor for Sauron's return to full power. It's not clear if Khamul is, in fact, anyone's 'second-in-command' or even, in some sense, the second most powerful Nazgul.
In "The Hunt for the Ring", in Unfinished Tales, Tolkien fleshes out (so to speak) the Nazgul more than he did in writing The Lord of the Rings. You can see him struggling between making the Nazgul into realistic characters with hopes, fears, and dreams (nightmares) vs. keeping them vague, mysterious, and therefore more terrifying. In this writing Khamul does act as the Witch-King's second in command on the mission to find the Ring, but it's not clear if this is simply because Tolkien had already named a second Nazgul and so had him ready to go when the story needed expanding.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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emre43
Rohan
Jul 10 2015, 2:55pm
Post #6 of 15
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I'm sure I will be able to think of more. I am always reading Tolkien and always thinking new thoughts.
Two things I love most, good horses and beautiful women, And when I die I hope they tan this old hide of mine and make it into a ladies riding saddle, So I can rest in peace between the two things I love.
- Russell J. Larsen
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Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Jul 10 2015, 5:15pm
Post #7 of 15
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...more info on the Witch-king originally being a ''renegade Istari''? That's sounds very, very interesting! I wish Tolkien had kept it that way. Then Sauron could have given 8 rings to men and 1 to an Istari. Or it could have been given to him by a man, just like Gandalf got an elven ring.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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squire
Half-elven
Jul 10 2015, 6:04pm
Post #8 of 15
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Invented for the Siege of Gondor scenes, he was at first called the "Wizard King", and was not himself a Nazgul, just their boss.
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In the History of Middle-earth volume that covers LotR Book V, we read excerpts from and commentary on Tolkien's early drafts. In the section about the creation of the chapter "The Siege of Gondor", we read Tolkien's draft notes to himself on what to write. Here is the segment where Faramir is reporting to his father about his work in Ithilien. You'll see how some of this is similar to, and some is quite changed from, the final published text:
Denethor and Faramir marvel at Gandalf's power over Nazgul. Gandalf says things are still not so bad -- because the W[izard] King has not yet appeared. He reveals that he is a renegade of his own order ... [?from] Numenor. 'So far I have saved myself from him only by flight -- for many an age he has lain in hiding or sleep while his master's power waned. But now he is grown more fell than ever. Yet it was foretold that he should be overthrown, in the end, by one young and gallant. But maybe that lies far in the future.' -- 'The War of the Ring', HoME VIII, 326.
Then we have the section after Faramir's army on the outworks has been defeated:
'But he has come whom I feared.' 'Not the Dark Lord,' cried Pippin. 'No, he will not come except in triumph,' said Gandalf. 'He wields others as his weapons. I speak of one whom you have met. The Wizard King, captain of those you called the Black Riders. Most fell of all the servants of the Dark Tower. But he has not [struck out (?): yet] taken to winged steeds. [In him I am not overmatched, and yet still I am matched, for he was a member of our order before evil took him.]Note 13. Now his fury and malice are grown to the full, and men fly before him. -- ibid., 331. Note 13: The square brackets are in the original.
In the next draft of this section, the scene is changed to include Denethor, as in the final text. Christopher Tolkien's notes comment that:
Gandalf as still in the draft (p. 331) reminds Pippin who the Black Captain is: 'You have met him, Peregrin son of Paladin, though then he was far from home, veiled to your eyes, when he stalked the Ringbearer. Now he is come forth in power again, growing as his Master grows.' Gandalf now names him 'King of Angmar long ago,' and this is the first appearance of the conception of the Kingdom of Angmar in the texts of The Lord of the Rings. -- ibid., p. 334.
The Wizard King continues to appear in the next few sequences, right up to the Last Battle, where he is the guy who meets them at the Black Gate and torments them with hints of Frodo's fate (so we see that, at that point, he does not die by the hand of one young and gallant). More generally, it's clear that the Wizard King was invented to be a match to Gandalf's power during the Siege and Battle for Minas Tirith, and was at first not a Nazgul himself, but their "Lord". Over time, as we see when Gandalf identifies him as a Black Rider, the logic of his being a Nazgul himself, and not a renegade wizard, becomes more compelling. Finally, of course, the idea that something called Angmar once existed originated in little more than a gossipy footnote in one of Gandalf's speeches. And Tolkien, as was his wont, took it from there!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Jul 10 2015, 6:45pm
Post #9 of 15
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...thank you so much for this post. That was a fantastic read. So interesting. Still, I wish Tolkien would have kept the Witch-king as a fallen Istari. Yes, it would make him less mysterious, but on the other hand it would make him more terrifying.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Jul 10 2015, 8:01pm
Post #10 of 15
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Woo hoo, witchy nazgul
See how high he flies
Woo hoo, witchy nazgul
He got the ring in his eyes
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emre43
Rohan
Jul 11 2015, 8:30am
Post #11 of 15
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I think I'm happier with his actual appearance as it is now. Sauron himself already has the fallen Maiar role taken.
Two things I love most, good horses and beautiful women, And when I die I hope they tan this old hide of mine and make it into a ladies riding saddle, So I can rest in peace between the two things I love.
- Russell J. Larsen
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emre43
Rohan
Jul 11 2015, 1:02pm
Post #13 of 15
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I feel so silly that I somehow forgot about saruman :/
Two things I love most, good horses and beautiful women, And when I die I hope they tan this old hide of mine and make it into a ladies riding saddle, So I can rest in peace between the two things I love.
- Russell J. Larsen
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Jul 12 2015, 10:25am
Post #14 of 15
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No-one mentions Khamul's brother -
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- he was called Dromedori.
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PhantomS
Rohan
Jul 13 2015, 4:23pm
Post #15 of 15
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1: He was called the Witch King by the Dunedain of Arnor; in Return of the King he is called a mighty sorcerer, so he is indeed a magic user- a Witch can be both male and female. As for the King , he was crowned the king of Angmar after establishing it in the North, but we also know that the Nazgul were kings or high lords of men, so he might have been an existing king. Because he led Angmar against the Dunedain of Arnor, he was well known to the Dunedain and men of Eriador, then later to Gondor via the Elves and the invasion by Earnur. His reputation arguably grew because the Nazgul took Minas Morgul and continued to lead the attack on Osgiliath's shores from there. So by the time LOTR happens he is well known to Gondor and the Elves.
2: He could have been the most fervent worshipper of Sauron among the Nazgul- or he might have been the most influenced member of the Nazgul and the closest to Sauron in his heart, like how Manwe is closest to Illuvatar and can perceive His will. He is also posessed of a degree of autonomy and is the only Nazgul to speak to people, so his will might have made him the strongest of the Nine.
3: Someone has to be second, I suppose. Khamul might have been a king of the Easterlings and maybe a sorceror, just not as powerful as the boss.
The idea of ranks in what is essentially nine slaves to the Dark Lord is kind of moot, since none of them speak for him or display any kind of hierarchy when they act.
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