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Breaking of the Fellowship part 5

Milady
Rivendell


Apr 5 2008, 12:47am

Post #1 of 15 (712 views)
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Breaking of the Fellowship part 5 Can't Post

Sorry this took so long.

Merry now stringently protests this decree, arguing that he and Pippin can’t leave Frodo. He didn’t know what that would mean, though, and says “It would be mad and cruel to let Frodo come to Mordor. Why can’t we stop him?”

A. If Frodo was prevented from going, who does Merry think should go instead? Why is Merry suddenly rethinking the decision of much older and wiser people than he when he agreed with it before?

Pippin agrees, and then claims that that is the real reason Frodo is delaying: he knows they won’t let him go to Mordor alone, and he wouldn’t ask anyone to go with him (and he turns out to be right).

At this point Sam finally steps up and speaks, and reveals to the Company that Frodo knows what to do but doesn’t want to do it. Sam brushes off Minas Tirith, apologizes, and brings to the attention of the rest of the Company that Boromir isn’t there.

B. Why didn’t anyone else notice Boromir wasn’t there? Wouldn’t somebody have noticed an absence of hints suggesting Gondor?

Sam continues by saying that Frodo is afraid, echoing what Frodo said to Boromir. “Now it’s come to the point, he’s just plain terrified. That’s what his trouble is. Of course he’s had a bit of schooling, so to speak—we all have—since we left home, or he’d be so terrified he’d just fling the Ring in the River and bolt.” Sam says Frodo knows that everyone wants to go with him, but wants to go alone.

Aragorn says that Sam speaks wisely, and Pippin protests that they have to stop him. Aragorn says they can’t, because it is Frodo’s decision as the Bearer and it’s not their job to push him one way or another.

C. If it’s not their job to help Frodo decide, why were they about to try a vote a few minutes ago to help him decide?

At this point Boromir shows up again, and admits to the rest of the Company that he frightened Frodo into putting on the Ring. “I found him some way up the hill, and I spoke to him. I urged him to come to Minas Tirith and not to go east. I grew angry and he left me. He vanished. […] I thought he would return to you.” Aragorn asks if that’s all Boromir has to say; for now, it is. “I will say no more yet.”

D. When was Boromir planning on telling them the full story, if not now? He knew he would have to eventually, so why doesn’t he do it now?

Sam panics, knowing Frodo wouldn’t put the ring on for no good reason. Merry is of the more practical (yet still panicky) opinion that Frodo wouldn’t have kept it on after he’d escaped the “unwelcome visitor.” Pippin also panics, and Aragorn asks how long ago Boromir scared Frodo. Once the response “it might be an hour” is given, Aragorn tries in vain to stop them, but the hobbits run off, along with even Legolas and Gimli. “A sudden panic or madness seemed to have fallen on the Company.”

E. Why does a sudden panic or madness fall on the Company? Merry has just pointed out that Frodo would have taken off the Ring anyway, but everyone runs off.

Has anyone ever wondered what would have happened if Smaug had ate Bilbo, and therefore the ring? It would be interesting to see Sauron send orcs to go diving for the Ring.


Laerasëa
Tol Eressea


Apr 5 2008, 4:03am

Post #2 of 15 (276 views)
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Ok, I'll try a few of these... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. I think that Merry doesn't exactly want to stop Frodo, but if Frodo leaves him and Pip, then the situation will be out of their hands. After it is out of their control, they realize how dangerous it really is. Merry even says, "It seemed different so far away, in the Shire, or in Rivendell." Merry and Pip, in a way, had control in the Shire, or even in Rivendell, when they were able to choose their paths; now, that choice is being taken away from them, and it is only then that they realize how dangerous it is. They know that they might not have had much effect on the destruction of the Ring, or Frodo's safe return; they could even have been a hindrance; but there is a sort of comfort, I think, in knowing that you have control over someone (or something), or you are keeping watch over them. Now that Merry and Pip have lost their portion of protectiveness over Frodo, they are powerless to do anything for him, and it is in this act of stepping back that, for the first time, they realize how vital and dangerous the mission really is. (I think I just said the same thing about fifty times...)

2. Maybe they were all just glad to get some peace and quiet...plus, I suppose the Ring and its bearer will tend to get more attention than the people trying to get it, since the latter are much more common....(I really have no idea for this question....sry!)

3. Aragorn says, "I wonder?" before deciding against making any decisions for Frodo, which maybe suggests that he simply changed his mind- plus, he's just listened to Sam's advice ("you speak more wisely than any of us, Sam"), so I think now he has a slightly better understanding of Frodo from a friend's perspective, as opposed to the hobbit that happens to be carrying the Ring (I'm exaggerating slightly, but still)- so he understands a little more that Frodo should be able to make some decisions, too, now that he's heard from the perspective of a friend (haha, either that or they're all hypocrites)

ok, I guess that's just the first three; thanks for posting them!!


Curious
Half-elven


Apr 5 2008, 3:12pm

Post #3 of 15 (301 views)
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Thoughts. [In reply to] Can't Post

A. If Frodo was prevented from going, who does Merry think should go instead? Why is Merry suddenly rethinking the decision of much older and wiser people than he when he agreed with it before?

Remember that Merry and Pippin were not present for the Council of Elrond, nor did they look into Galadriel's mirror or hear her counsel Frodo. And they are quite right that Frodo will suffer if he goes to Frodo, and that any logical, skeptical person would consider the whole idea to be madness -- as Denethor does, with fine reasoning. Sending Frodo to Mordor could be viewed as a form of human sacrifice, for no rational person expects him to return alive. Is this what the gods, er, the Valar, demand? Is this another version of the story of Abraham and Isaac?

Sam loves Frodo even more than Merry and Pippin do, but Sam loves him from a place of service. Therefore Sam will not question Frodo's decision as Merry and Pippin do. Sam would never dream of restraining Frodo from doing what he thinks is wise, especially if Gandalf and Elrond and Galadriel also think it is wise. But if Frodo is determined to go to Mordor, nothing will stop Sam from going with him.

B. Why didn’t anyone else notice Boromir wasn’t there? Wouldn’t somebody have noticed an absence of hints suggesting Gondor?

Sam didn't notice that Boromir had disappeared either, until that moment. Everyone probably assumes that Boromir remains silent and outside the circle because he knows which way he is going, and no one notices that he remains silent because he has wandered out of sight.

C. If it’s not their job to help Frodo decide, why were they about to try a vote a few minutes ago to help him decide?

Legolas suggested voting, not Aragorn, and Legolas only suggested it after waiting quite a while for Frodo to make his own decision. I think he wanted to help Frodo decide, and so do the others when they pick up on Legolas's decision, including Aragorn when he makes his own suggestion, but Aragorn is consistent; it is ultimately Frodo's decision whether or not to go to Mordor. No one can order Frodo to make such a sacrifice, even after he vowed to do so back in Rivendell. All the others can do is choose whether to go with him, for better or worse.

But there is another option, which no one considers; create a distraction so that Frodo may continue without being followed. Use Merry and Pippin as decoys for those searching for hobbits. This is what in fact happens, although not because anyone in the Fellowship plans it. It may seem a bit cold, but in the movie Jackson has Merry and Pippin choose this option, deliberately setting themselves up as decoys so that Frodo may escape. There it doesn't seem cold at all, but Jackson leaves out the possibility that the Fellowship is not in charge of what happens; i.e. the possibility that Divine Providence is at work.

I think Tolkien considered it important for the Breaking of the Fellowship to happen as it does, not because anyone in the Fellowship wills it but because of what most people would call chance. Thus Gandalf can comment later that through chance, if you want to call it that, Merry and Pippin were brought to Fangorn at just the right time, and Aragorn and Legolas and Gimli were brought to Gandalf at just the right time, and the Ring went off to Mordor at just the right time, beyond the reach of the warring forces on the west side of the Anduin. Gandalf consistently hints that chance is an inaccurate term, although he never explicitly invokes Divine Providence. (Except, perhaps, when he says that Someone selected Bilbo to find the Ring, and Frodo to inherit it, and calls that a comforting thought -- that's probably as close as Gandalf comes to renaming chance as Divine Providence.)

As I noted before, if anyone in the Fellowship had any part in planning the break-up, it would be Gandalf, who I think could have prevented it by rejoining the Fellowship, but chose to leave their fate to chance -- or to Divine Providence. However, Tolkien does everything he can to gloss over Gandalf's choice, perhaps because that might make the break-up of the Fellowship look like Gandalf's plan, which it wasn't. It was "chance" that it worked out as it did, even if Gandalf deliberately rolled the dice and left the outcome up to "chance." If he had been there, Gandalf might have deliberately chosen to break up the Fellowship, but instead he chose to be elsewhere, and simply to watch over Frodo from a distance, where Gandalf's ability to intervene was limited, and where he did not make his resurrection known to Frodo and Sam.

D. When was Boromir planning on telling them the full story, if not now? He knew he would have to eventually, so why doesn’t he do it now?

He was ashamed.

E. Why does a sudden panic or madness fall on the Company? Merry has just pointed out that Frodo would have taken off the Ring anyway, but everyone runs off.

They seem to be in what the narrator elsewhere calls a "fey mood," don't they? Are Unseen Powers at work, benevolent or malevolent? Is Aragorn's lack of leadership responsible? Is it just chance? Tolkien does not say. But it does all work out in the end.


(This post was edited by Curious on Apr 5 2008, 3:18pm)


Modtheow
Lorien


Apr 5 2008, 7:49pm

Post #4 of 15 (272 views)
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I'm reminded of [In reply to] Can't Post

the Council of Elrond. There, people like Elrond and Gandalf knew that there was only one thing to do with the Ring, but everyone spent a lot of time discussing other possibilities, like giving it to Tom or throwing it in the Sea or taking it to Gondor. The discussion helped to clarify that all these possibilities were useless and that it really was only Frodo who would have to choose to destroy the Ring in Mount Doom.

In this chapter, the discussion among the fellowship seems to me to be almost like a mini-Council scene. Aragorn, as Curious points out, is consistent in his belief that Frodo has to make the decision, and Sam knows that the decision can only be to go directly to Mount Doom, but they all try out various possibilities – who should go with whom and where and how many should go. In the end, though, all of these possibilities are futile speculation: Frodo has to make the decision, and the only right path is to go straight into Mordor.





Curious
Half-elven


Apr 5 2008, 8:11pm

Post #5 of 15 (259 views)
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This council, however, is incomplete. [In reply to] Can't Post

It suffers from a power vacuum and a Frodo vacuum. Elrond and Gandalf and others like him are missing, and Aragorn is still reluctant to assume that role. And Frodo himself is absent, so what is the point of discussing what Frodo should do?

Instead they should think about what they should do right here and now -- like maybe keeping an eye out for orcs, anyone? Or perhaps wondering exactly why Frodo wants to wander off alone? And why Boromir wants to follow him? Less talk and more observation would serve them well. After all, they are a long way from the safety of Rivendell, or even Lothlorien.


(This post was edited by Curious on Apr 5 2008, 8:12pm)


sador
Half-elven

Apr 5 2008, 9:58pm

Post #6 of 15 (243 views)
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A. If Frodo was prevented from going, who does Merry think should go instead?
Nobody.
I mean, if you point out an option is wrong, you don't really need to offer a substitute immediately. Politicians love asking the opposition: "What alternative do you suggest?" But often, the alternative could be just rethinking your whole strategy, and seeing if it is correct. It MIGHT be - but only after having clarified that, you must think of other tactics.
Why is Merry suddenly rethinking the decision of much older and wiser people than he when he agreed with it before?
Celeborn considered Gandalf's going through Moria as folly. And even though Galadreil rebuked him, her one knight among the fellowship, was not convinced (from the end of 'The Riders of Rohan'):

Quote

'But Gandalf chose to come himself, and he was the first to be lost' answered Gimli. 'His foresight failed him'.

Older and wiser people might be wrong, and Gandalf himself admits to quite a few mistakes. Apart of that, Merry did share a boat with Boromir for ten days - he must have been influenced a bit.
B. Why didn’t anyone else notice Boromir wasn’t there? Wouldn’t somebody have noticed an absence of hints suggesting Gondor?
For the same reason Sam didn't bother anybody with news of Gollum in the previous chapter: everybody minds his own business. Only Sam spies on Boromir (and possibly on others as well) out of concern for Frodo, and needs to apologise for it (in 'The Window on the West' - although he might have been apologising for the presumtion to discuss Boromir with his brother).
C. If it’s not their job to help Frodo decide, why were they about to try a vote a few minutes ago to help him decide?
Answered already by others.
But I would like to point out that Aragorn's allowing Frodo to make up his mind alone, and waiting for his decision, is one of his choices who he sees as bad ("Since we passed through the Argonath my choices have gone amiss" - 'The Riders of Rohan'), but ultimately are correct, providing the Curious-Jackson solution of decoy.
Aragorn's refraining from enforcing his own counsel on Frodo, are another case in LOTR of following your heart rather than your brains, and another case in which such a choice is justified.
D. When was Boromir planning on telling them the full story, if not now? He knew he would have to eventually, so why doesn’t he do it now?
Did he know that? But he needed time for himself, to process his own thoughts (he was wandering since, not knowing how much time has passed, since Frodo left him); and he was clearly ashamed.
One should notice that Boromir hasn't actually lied, but he hasn't told the full truth (as Sam says later). He still is himself, and not really corrupted; but he hasn't confessed, which is a neccessary step towards redemption (as a devout Catholic, like Tolkien, would see it). Two threads ago, you've asked whether Boromir has truly repented - and I believe his words now (and his professed intention to confess later) are critical to that question.
E. Why does a sudden panic or madness fall on the Company? Merry has just pointed out that Frodo would have taken off the Ring anyway, but everyone runs off.
Could it be the Eye?
But I would compare it to Turin's running wildly, at the end of 'The Children of Hurin', when he hears 'the feet of his doom overtaking him'. The Fellowship as such, has met its doom, and only when they are scattered they might recuperate.

"For many long years I have pondered" - Galadriel


Milady
Rivendell


Apr 5 2008, 10:08pm

Post #7 of 15 (241 views)
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That's interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd never thought of it that way. It really does bear similarities to the Council of Elrond, doesn't it?

Has anyone ever wondered what would have happened if Smaug had ate Bilbo, and therefore the ring? It would be interesting to see Sauron send orcs to go diving for the Ring.


Modtheow
Lorien


Apr 6 2008, 1:47pm

Post #8 of 15 (289 views)
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a variation on a theme, maybe [In reply to] Can't Post

It’s true that the discussion in this chapter lacks someone like Elrond whose power and decisiveness are not matched by Aragorn. It’s also true, I think, that the Council of Elrond chapter served other purposes that aren’t relevant here, like introducing new people to the reader, explaining past history, revealing the motivations of several people about to go on this quest...


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And Frodo himself is absent, so what is the point of discussing what Frodo should do?


First, I’ll ask a similar question: what is the point of discussing what should be done with the Ring in the Council of Elrond chapter when Elrond knows what should be done? In the later chapter, Sam knows what Frodo will do even before the discussion takes place: "Plain as a pikestaff it is" (i.e. Frodo will try to go on his own once he’s screwed up his courage), and Aragorn at least knows that Frodo has to make the decision himself, but still there is discussion of other options. Frodo isn’t present at the discussion, but he is dealing with another option quite dramatically at the time: giving the Ring to Boromir.

So what is the point of discussing these possibilities when Frodo isn’t even present? To me, the general resemblance between the two chapters resides simply in the way in which people with only partial understandings or incomplete visions seem to be grasping for a course of action as if they’re lost in a fog. Some of those other options they bring up certainly seem like the easier ones. Myself, I’m sure I would be arguing for throwing the Ring to the bottom of the Sea and hoping for the best. Or being a great procrastinator, I would probably give in to the idea of taking a detour to Minas Tirith before facing the journey to Mordor. You can feel how alluring the other options are, because they would allow Frodo to throw off the burden to someone else or at least put it off for a time. There’s a whole menu of choices that can be made by which to exercise his free will. Standing out against all this muddled thinking, though, is the simple, clear, and most difficult choice, "I will take the Ring." So I think that the discussions in both chapters serve to emphasize the heroic choice that is finally made by Frodo. They also underline the idea of fate guiding the Ringbearer on an appointed path. The other possibilities, like should three people or four go with him, or should we stop him or have a vote, turn out to be irrelevant to Frodo's main purpose, although they do at least corroborate for us what Frodo already believes: that his friends would want to go with him.

Of course, they would all be wiser to observe their surroundings or make plans to fight the orcs. But by letting us see people groping for a course of action amongst various possibilities, Tolkien shows us the limitations of knowledge in most people. Only with a more complete vision of the whole situation can Frodo make his free choice and see the way he must go most clearly. In the Council of Elrond chapter, having people from the far corners of Middle-earth fill in the story of the Ring provided the big picture; in this chapter, Frodo’s vision of Middle-earth on the Seat of Seeing provides the same kind of big picture – and having seen how war is moving on all sides, Frodo makes his decision.

Certainly, I can see that there are differences in the two chapters. I think I might see them as variations on a theme; the second time around there’s a similar scene but with some decrease in power and certainty: there’s that power vacuum you see in this chapter. The first time around, they formed a cohesive fellowship and set out together; this time, they scatter and fragment into groups. They’re not as safe as they were in Rivendell, and there’s no one as powerful and certain as Elrond or Gandalf guiding them – things are getting worse – but the end result is the same: against a background of uncertainty and the natural desire to do easier things, Frodo sees the whole state of affairs and makes his decision, and Sam takes steps, unbidden, to go with him.


Dreamdeer
Valinor


Apr 6 2008, 11:58pm

Post #9 of 15 (207 views)
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Panic in the Ranks [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
A. If Frodo was prevented from going, who does Merry think should go instead? Why is Merry suddenly rethinking the decision of much older and wiser people than he when he agreed with it before?



Because before it was all theoretical. Now that it's suddenly come down to the pinch, his normal level-headedness gives way to emotion, as he suddenly pictures his beloved cousin actually marching into the ugliest, most dangerous place on earth. As for who, I don't think Merry has any coherent plan. Some man, maybe--somebody who seems bigger, stronger, wiser, more heroic. Certainly not a fellow hobbit.


Quote
At this point Sam finally steps up and speaks, and reveals to the Company that Frodo knows what to do but doesn’t want to do it. Sam brushes off Minas Tirith, apologizes, and brings to the attention of the rest of the Company that Boromir isn’t there.

B. Why didn’t anyone else notice Boromir wasn’t there? Wouldn’t somebody have noticed an absence of hints suggesting Gondor?




Because they were all so lost in their own thoughts that Gollum could have joined the group and they wouldn't have glanced his way. And because Boromir wouldn't have survived this long without learning serious stealth skills, no matter how much of a big lunk he seems.

Has anyone else noticed that from Lorien onwards Sam seems a lot shrewder, and keeps noticing things that others miss, and figuring out what the others don't get?



Quote
C. If it’s not their job to help Frodo decide, why were they about to try a vote a few minutes ago to help him decide?



They intended the vote as advice, but agreed that if Frodo didn't go along with it, they'd abandon their plan in favor of his. What's different here is that Merry and Pippin are suddenly talking about forcing Frodo to take their course. Merry starts this--he was always the take-charge guy back in the Shire. Maybe he feels that somebody has got to start being decisive. But he's out of his league here, and it shows.


Quote
D. When was Boromir planning on telling them the full story, if not now? He knew he would have to eventually, so why doesn’t he do it now?



Because right now the top priority has to be Frodo, making sure he's not in danger. First you put out the fire, then you bust yourself for playing with matches.


In Reply To

Sam panics, knowing Frodo wouldn’t put the ring on for no good reason. Merry is of the more practical (yet still panicky) opinion that Frodo wouldn’t have kept it on after he’d escaped the “unwelcome visitor.” Pippin also panics, and Aragorn asks how long ago Boromir scared Frodo. Once the response “it might be an hour” is given, Aragorn tries in vain to stop them, but the hobbits run off, along with even Legolas and Gimli. “A sudden panic or madness seemed to have fallen on the Company.”

E. Why does a sudden panic or madness fall on the Company? Merry has just pointed out that Frodo would have taken off the Ring anyway, but everyone runs off.



Sometimes that happens when a group has been carrying on bravely through all kinds of stress and unfamiliarity for a long time, especially under an indecisive leader who has not made them feel particularly secure. Tolkien probably saw such things in battle. In any case, I think this is the wake-up call that Aragorn needs--losing control of those under his charge. His abject despair later, when he hits rock-bottom and calls himself an "ill-chooser", finally gives way to a definitive decision: he goes to Merry and Pippin's rescue. From that point on he behaves like the king he should be--because he has seen what can happen to innocent people when he lets his own doubts get in the way of his leadership.

My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.


Curious
Half-elven


Apr 7 2008, 1:02pm

Post #10 of 15 (192 views)
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Contrasting variations, then. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
First, I’ll ask a similar question: what is the point of discussing what should be done with the Ring in the Council of Elrond chapter when Elrond knows what should be done?


It's all about persuading Frodo to volunteer, and perhaps persuading people like Boromir to go along.


Quote

The first time around, they formed a cohesive fellowship and set out together; this time, they scatter and fragment into groups.


They are both councils, and that naturally sets up a comparison, but the contrasts far outnumber the similarities. The first is the model of a successful council in Tolkien's world; the second the model of an unsuccessful one.


Quote

...the end result is the same, Frodo sees the whole state of affairs and makes his decision, and Sam takes steps, unbidden, to go with him.


In the present chapter, Frodo and Sam' actions are not a result of the council, but rather despite the council. Frodo does not take part, and Sam knows from the outset that it is pointless because Frodo has already made up his mind.



FarFromHome
Valinor


Apr 7 2008, 4:51pm

Post #11 of 15 (204 views)
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One thing [In reply to] Can't Post

that isn't quite the way I read it:


In Reply To
Pippin agrees, and then claims that that is the real reason Frodo is delaying: he knows they won’t let him go to Mordor alone, and he wouldn’t ask anyone to go with him (and he turns out to be right).



Pippin thinks Frodo is delaying because he doesn't want to have to try to convince his friends to let him go on such a dangerous road. And he also thinks that Frodo is hesitating to ask for companions. At least, that's how these words of Pippin's come across to me:

"He knows we shan't agree to his going east. And he doesn't like to ask anyone to go with him, poor old fellow...."

I think that is one of the things that has made Frodo put off this moment - he knows that his friends will try to persuade him to take the easier road. They will try to make him believe that Minas Tirith is a better bet, and that he'd be perfectly justified in putting off the trip to Mordor until they have a better idea of how the war is going. Something, anything, along these lines would certainly be very tempting at a time like this - and Frodo doesn't want to allow himself to be tempted.

And it's not the fear of asking for companions that is eating at Frodo, it's the fear that they will want to come, and that if he accepts their offer he would be responsible for their deaths. Only Sam has figured that last part out, I think, which is why he insists to Frodo that not going to Mordor would "be the death of me", so Frodo can't save his life that way! And, by showing that he'd rather drown than be left behind, he underlines the point quite spectacularly! Wink

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


Modtheow
Lorien


Apr 8 2008, 5:17pm

Post #12 of 15 (217 views)
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By definition [In reply to] Can't Post

a variation on a theme will include differences from the original instance of the theme. I suppose a person just has to decide when the differences are too great for the comparison to be a useful one. As I said in my previous post, I recognize that Elrond’s Council has different purposes from the debate that goes on at the end of the book, and these could include, as you point out, persuading Frodo, and possibly Boromir, that they should go on the quest. But I don’t see this as its only purpose.

I was locating the thematic similarities not in the operations of a formal council which Frodo attends but in the searching for options about what to do with the Ring (most of which are pointless) by various people – and I would include Frodo’s encounter with Boromir in this. For me, the thematic similarity resides in the idea of having to make a choice when faced with the limitations of knowledge and the frailty of human desires. In both cases, set against this presentation of options, a clear decision is made by Frodo (and Sam).

What ties the two together even further in my mind is the fact that in both cases Frodo is presented with "The Big Picture" in order to help him decide – the first time in the form of the history and discussion of the Ring and its effects on all the peoples of Middle-earth, and the second time in his vision of the actual war preparations throughout Middle-earth. Obviously, Frodo sitting on the Seat of Seeing is not part of a formal council, but it is part of a sequence that is similar to what happens in the Council chapter. The first time around, Frodo hears about Sauron’s activities; the second time, he actually sees how those reports are coming true.

I’m also inclined to juxtapose the two chapters because I think that is Tolkien’s characteristic tendency as well - to set characters or events side by side and to play with variations on a theme.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 8 2008, 6:12pm

Post #13 of 15 (203 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

A. If Frodo was prevented from going, who does Merry think should go instead?

He probably has a mind to "just fling the Ring in the River and bolt."


Why is Merry suddenly rethinking the decision of much older and wiser people than he when he agreed with it before?

Because he's on the scene. It's gone from a theoretical exercise in far off Rivendell to an immediate real life situation at Amon Hen. Lots of very intelligent people isolated in ivory towers can make some very stupid decisions. Look at Iraq.


B. Why didn’t anyone else notice Boromir wasn’t there?

Only Sherlock Holmes noticed the dog that didn't bark.


Wouldn’t somebody have noticed an absence of hints suggesting Gondor?

Like most people they're too busy trying to get in their own two cents worth than to actually bother to listen to what anyone else has to say.


C. If it’s not their job to help Frodo decide, why were they about to try a vote a few minutes ago to help him decide?

It's Legolas and Gimli who are wanting to vote to help him decide. Aragorn neatly diverts the question from voting whether Frodo should go East to deciding who should go East with Frodo. Sneaky Aragorn! He's learning leadership!!


D. When was Boromir planning on telling them the full story, if not now?

When he knows his own mind.


He knew he would have to eventually, so why doesn’t he do it now?

"'Half an hour, maybe,' he answered. `Or it might be an hour. I have wandered for some time since. I do not know! I do not know! ' He put his head in his hands, and sat as if bowed with grief."

Shame, confusion. I bet it all seems like a nightmare, so he's still in the process of sorting it all out himself.


E. Why does a sudden panic or madness fall on the Company?

Why does a sudden madness fall on Boromir? As Aragorn says, "There is mischief about. I feel it." It's the Ring.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 8 2008, 6:14pm)


Curious
Half-elven


Apr 8 2008, 7:40pm

Post #14 of 15 (221 views)
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I agree. [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no problem justaposing the two chapters. I just think the differences outnumber the similarities. Successful councils and failed councils are both councils, but there the similarities end.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Mar 22 2009, 9:03am

Post #15 of 15 (183 views)
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Nice point about the “Big Picture”. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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