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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Would you agree that the First 10 Minutes of BOT5A
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 7 2015, 9:37am

Post #26 of 67 (1196 views)
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Fortuitous, certainly. [In reply to] Can't Post

There isn't necessarily an issue about the pieces staying in the holes (provided they are a suitable shape and the wood does not deform or break). The force applied by stretching the bow isn't pulling the pieces out of the hole. It is instead pushing the broken end of the bow into the front of the hole about a pivot point.

But to have such circumstances align is certainly lucky. Then again taking a shot with a special arrow after a talking bird has turned up out of the flames to whisper the secret target to you is pretty fortuitous too!

Then again, it is odd feature of humans that we generally find the impossible more credible than the improbable!


Elarie
Grey Havens

Jul 7 2015, 11:57am

Post #27 of 67 (1188 views)
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Fantastic sequence [In reply to] Can't Post

Like everything else connected with Smaug I was really looking forward to the burning of Laketown and I wasn't disappointed. Loved every minute of it. Third row IMAX is the ONLY way to watch Smaug. Smile

__________________

Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.

(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)


adt100
Rohan


Jul 7 2015, 12:17pm

Post #28 of 67 (1184 views)
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'out of character'? [In reply to] Can't Post

Whether out of character for Bard (book or film version) is debatable but also irrelevant in terms of the quality of the film-making. I think th first 20 minutes are probably the best of the whole film, and certainly up with any of his work in any of his previous ME films.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 7 2015, 1:08pm

Post #29 of 67 (1170 views)
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Well, PJ has mentioned before.. [In reply to] Can't Post

How, while growing up he always enjoyed
How "James Bond Movies" had a little Set-UP
Movie before getting to the Current Plot-line.

SSOoo in some ways you could call it that.

Getting the Audience, even the casual observer...
who has Nothing invested in Tolkien? or the Other Movies
has a Rip-Roaring Beginning to settle anyone into..

Those of us that DO have an vested interest,
Got an Embellished Plot of the Best Kind.

Much creative thought went into this section,

ALL THAT Happened before the TITLE CARD
"The Battle of the Five Armies"

SSOooo...DID it's job.

NOW, while waiting; if ONLY the rushed conclusions
deliver the same Satisfaction, then we will have
nothing but
Praise for
PJ's Last
PRETTY dang
POWERFUL Adventure in the World, we love so much.

DAMN the Critics, FULL SPEED AHEAD..
Captain Peter Jackson!

Bomby salutes you!
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Loresilme
Valinor


Jul 7 2015, 1:23pm

Post #30 of 67 (1163 views)
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Thanks for that [In reply to] Can't Post

I love to read the details of how they created the props, from the artists and technicians themselves. Their expertise and attention to detail is amazing.


Loresilme
Valinor


Jul 7 2015, 1:45pm

Post #31 of 67 (1158 views)
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Loved the Bard / Bain interaction [In reply to] Can't Post

And I thought they devised a great way for Bard to bring down the dragon given the original weapon was broken.


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 7 2015, 2:14pm

Post #32 of 67 (1164 views)
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Yes, I would.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I find the whole sequence breathtaking. It had me in tears the first time even before Bain joined in - just the lonely courage of his father, standing up to the dragon with on hope of success - and films very rarely have that effect on me.

And I don't give a fig whether boy-steadying-arrow-on-improvised-crossbow would actually work if someone were to re-stage it on youtube. Who cares? Seems unlikely they'll find a dragon to shoot at on the burning rooftops of a wooden town, built on a lake, so any claim they might have to be a scientific experiment is meaningless. For me the only test that matters is the one that happens onscreen. When I'm watching I believe 100%, and the emotional power of that moment when Bain is drawn to look at the horror approaching him from behind and his father steadies him with "Look at me... you look at me" - is utterly compelling. It's the shared understanding of father and son which becomes the real engine to drive the arrow home, and it's brilliant.


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jul 7 2015, 3:03pm

Post #33 of 67 (1139 views)
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One prologue to rule them all [In reply to] Can't Post

I surely thought of that James Bond effect, who throws the audience in the heart of the legend.

PJ hit it every time.

- In FOTR we discovered Massive and Sauron
- In TTT the mighty mountains of NZ and the mighty Gandalf against a mighty Balrog
- In ROTK we had the stunning evilness of the Ring and the shocking demise of Sarumane

- In AUJ, the grandeur of Erebor and the despair of one people
- In DOS, the 3D ambiance of a little town tavern, cherished by every former role-playing gamers
- in BOTFA, the full-scale terror of a great Dragon

All were great, but IMO the burning of Laketown could be the most splendid of all six.
And the title card running just after that... what a blow !

it couldn't be done better. We all know that the ending of The Hobbit might be the weakest part of the book, hence of the movie.
So it was good fot that piece of film to carry at least some winning title.

But I keep a hope that the final showdown is yet to come, and that this shortcut TE might have been a foretaste.

One thing we miss in BOTFA are sweeping views of the battleground during the battle.
My guess is that those pictures couldn't be done properly within the one-year segment before the release.


Goldeneye
Lorien


Jul 7 2015, 3:38pm

Post #34 of 67 (1129 views)
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Certainly one of the finest in the Hobbit trilogy at least [In reply to] Can't Post

The first 10 minutes and the last 10 minutes of BOFA are some of PJ's finest moments, at least for the Hobbit trilogy. Smaug's attack was very well done and I even liked how Bard used his son to fire the arrow. The ending was touching and a perfect conclusion. I just wish the middle two hours were as good!!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 7 2015, 3:42pm

Post #35 of 67 (1127 views)
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Ypu're reaching. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Pre-existing holes may have been carved by Bard himself, if he kept the project to kill Smaug whatever could happen to the official windlance.


For one thing, Bard was in the bell-tower and not even at the site of the windlance (Lake-town's Town Hall). Your hypothesis also pre-supposes that Bard anticipated having his longbow broken exactly in the center (and, by the way, he was not even using his own bow but one scavenged from the armory).


No, Bard's last-ditch plan was wholly improvised.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jul 7 2015, 3:47pm

Post #36 of 67 (1123 views)
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A smart bowman [In reply to] Can't Post

has to anticipate anything.

Anything.

Wink


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 7 2015, 4:20pm

Post #37 of 67 (1116 views)
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I sense... [In reply to] Can't Post

...a disturbance in the Force. Or at least a tongue firmly planted in-cheek. Laugh

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 7 2015, 6:20pm

Post #38 of 67 (1106 views)
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For sucha small part they SURE gave BAIN [In reply to] Can't Post

A LOT to do...!

Swinging away from the little Escape boat
like a "Swash-Buckler" from other Older movies...

Then when he arrives to give his "DA" the
ONLY CHANCE to save his family & friends..

Almost DIES..hanging onto the Black Arrow in one hand
& the other holding on..just like Frodo @ the Cracks of Doom.

THEN, SSOoo terrified, he Looks frozen,
that his DA needs to Snatch it away...
{GREAT Acting from John Bell there}

Finally during..The Last Ditch Attempt has us ALL
on the edge of tears looking @ him...SACRED to DEATH?

When the Final Blow hits it mark..BOTH go crashing inoto the Lake?

Talk about DRAMA & TRAMA..!!!

ALL hail, BAIN! HE ALSO saved the day...
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Glorfindela
Valinor


Jul 7 2015, 10:40pm

Post #39 of 67 (1088 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it is extraordinary (probably on a par with some of the greatest scenes in any fantasy films, not just PJ's).

Not just the sight of the dragon and the way he was formed, and the Great Fire he created, BTW, but everything else that Dormouse said above as well.Smile

Another thing (along with Thorin's portrayal) that's worth the price of a ticket for me.


(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Jul 7 2015, 10:44pm)


Eruonen
Half-elven


Jul 8 2015, 4:10pm

Post #40 of 67 (1034 views)
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Who cares? I care. We are not talking magic here. When showing a [In reply to] Can't Post

weapon being used it makes no sense for that weapon to have 0 chance of working in a film. It is not the most egregious scene that requires a total suspension of belief, but it was an unnecessary one that breaks the spell. I would be willing to wager the dominant thought in the audience was "right, sure, that would work". To kill the dragon, you needed a windlance capable of launching the bolt at sufficient velocity to penetrate the dragon...now, a simple stretched string will launch a 5 lb bolt 100'+ into the dragon. Internal logic still matters in a fantasy film.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jul 8 2015, 4:16pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 8 2015, 4:34pm

Post #41 of 67 (1018 views)
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Well, neither you nor I is in a position to say what 'the dominant thought' [In reply to] Can't Post

...was in the minds of the audiences round the world who watched that scene, if such a thing as a single dominant thought could even be said to exist.

I speak only for my thought. The scene is brilliant and totally compelling. For me.

To me it seems that analysing the theoretical velocity produced by a weapon no one can reproduce in conditions we cannot imitate, then comparing that with the theoretical velocity needed to penetrate the hide of a creature we cannot examine - not forgetting to factor in how that velocity might be reduced by the effect of old damage to the creature's hide - is missing the point of the scene entirely. Bard killed Smaug with Bain's help: I know, because I saw it happen.

But that's just me - others are free to make up their own minds


Elarie
Grey Havens

Jul 8 2015, 5:25pm

Post #42 of 67 (1007 views)
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I didn't know or care how the improvised arrow worked [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not that interested in how weapons work, so that scene didn't bother me. I was much more interested in the conversation and the dynamic that was happening with Bard and Bain and Smaug. On the other hand, when I saw last year's Exodus movie I was appalled that they used Friesian horses, although I'm sure most of the audience didn't realize how outrageous that was. If something in a movie happens to be a special interest of the viewer then it's normal to really notice any errors or inconsistencies, but for everyone else it just slides by.

__________________

Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.

(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)


Eruonen
Half-elven


Jul 8 2015, 5:43pm

Post #43 of 67 (1002 views)
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As Tolkien said [In reply to] Can't Post

"But [suspension of disbelief] does not seem to me a good description of what happens. What really happens is that the story-maker proves a successful “sub-creator.” He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is “true”: it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather art, has failed."

http://tolkienmedievalandmodern.blogspot.com/...lding-and-logic.html

Where PJ fails for me and others are precisely those scenes when the spell is broken due to excesses.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jul 8 2015, 5:48pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Jul 8 2015, 7:02pm

Post #44 of 67 (991 views)
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Yes, exactly,.... [In reply to] Can't Post

..and by Tolkien's definition Peter Jackson is a successful "sub-creator" in that scene for me, making a Secondary world into which my mind enters fully. I believe it when I'm there. Both the magic and the art succeed for me - they work.

For you it appears that they don't and I appreciate that. Your reactions are your own - but please leave me to mine, because they are what they are, you can't change them.


Eruonen
Half-elven


Jul 8 2015, 7:36pm

Post #45 of 67 (981 views)
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For those interested in the actual results of the bow [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.wired.com/...ctually-kill-dragon/

http://craparchery.blogspot.com/...man-from-hobbit.html

http://www.strangehorizons.com/...he_hobbit_the_.shtml


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jul 8 2015, 7:45pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 8 2015, 8:00pm

Post #46 of 67 (968 views)
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Thanks for the links. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that the results of the windlance can only be properly gauged by using a working reproduction (or at least a working ballista). Using the movie alone doesn't allow for the problems introduced by special effects and slow motion. The author of the article does not observe that Bard used pre-existing holes when he jammed his broken bow into the beam of the tower (not that it should have made much difference). He also failed to realize that the operator of the windlance was Girion, Bard's ancestor, and not a Dwarf, but that doesn't affect his results.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Eruonen
Half-elven


Jul 8 2015, 8:20pm

Post #47 of 67 (959 views)
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Yes, but complicated by the actual use of a broken bow firing a heavy metal bolt. [In reply to] Can't Post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvvbvOu3xG8

He jams the flat broken ends (the bow look like metal in the shot).

Oh well, it is far from the most egregious scene. Getting to Bomby's point, it was overall a well done contest.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jul 8 2015, 8:26pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 8 2015, 8:21pm

Post #48 of 67 (956 views)
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And the third one is simply incorrect. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Bofur01
Lorien


Jul 8 2015, 8:27pm

Post #49 of 67 (951 views)
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Is it supposed to be metal? [In reply to] Can't Post

In the WETA book, it was said that the shaft was going to be made out of wood, but used Aluminium to get it to look like it wasn't flexing too much, for instance when Bard was running with the arrow. So is it supposed to be wood or metal-shafted?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 8 2015, 8:27pm

Post #50 of 67 (952 views)
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You are mistaken [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Yes, but complicated by the actual use of a broken bow firing a heavy metal bolt.


I was only referring to the windlance. Bard's jury-rigged crossbow/ballista is a completely different issue! I doubt that even an unbroken longbow could have launched the Black Arrow of the films with sufficient force to hurt Smaug (or even hit him).

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

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