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emre43
Rohan
Jul 7 2015, 7:43am
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Order of Wizards
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Just a quick question which has probably been discussed before. Presumably a White Wizard is the most powerful of the Order and Grey second. Is there any information on who was more powerful out of Radagast the Brown and the Blue Wizards?
For some reason I have always assumed that Radagast was the more powerful of the three, although I have nothing to base that on.
Two things I love most, good horses and beautiful women, And when I die I hope they tan this old hide of mine and make it into a ladies riding saddle, So I can rest in peace between the two things I love.
- Russell J. Larsen
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jul 7 2015, 8:20am
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Most of what we know about them, aside from that which we infer from the text of LotR, is in the essay "The Istari" in Unfinished Tales, a compendium by Christopher Tolkien of unpublished papers left by his father. The specific order and mission of the respective Istari (Wizards) is not spelled out. Much of what can be gleaned from these sources is summarized in this article.
Aside from noting that there were two Blue Wizards (and there are two different versions of their names), we know nothing of their rank, mission, or what became of them.
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squire
Half-elven
Jul 7 2015, 12:58pm
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Although the Istari were in fact tremendously powerful beings in the context of Middle-earth, their entire mission centered on their not using their power as such, but rather the wisdom and endurance that their power gave them in their earthly guises. When Gandalf does ruminate about his power, in a couple of places in the book, he is deliberately vague, reminding his listeners that all power is relative to the time and place and motive for using that power.
Saruman was head of the Order, but that designation seems to come from his wisdom, knowledge, and skill, rather than whatever his 'power' is. In the scenes where he appears, his only apparently 'magical power' is his ability to persuade through speech; but Gandalf's ability to persuade through counsel is equally formidable though expressed quite differently. We see Saruman wane when he abuses his mission by embracing worldly power; we see Gandalf grow in stature and rank when he foregoes his power. We don't know enough about Radagast's past to know how or why the story presents him as diminished, and as already noted, we know (and are meant to know) absolutely nothing about the other two wizards.
Although it's a very common pasttime and fun for those who like such things, I always think it's a misreading of Tolkien's stories to try to rank his peoples and characters as if for a game or a superhero fantasy. Tolkien admitted that he himself was liable to do so, but always regretted it!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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emre43
Rohan
Jul 7 2015, 4:44pm
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I think it is about power, personally
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As Tolkien said here in 1972:
'Saruman is said (e.g. by Gandalf himself) to have been the chief of the Istari -- that is, higher in Valinórean stature than the others. Gandalf was evidently the next in order. Radagast is presented as a person of much less power and wisdom. Of the other two nothing is said in published work save the reference to the five wizards in the altercation between Gandalf and Saruman. Now these Maiar were sent by the Valar at a crucial moment in the history of Middle-earth to enhance the resistance of the Elves of the West, waning in power, and of the uncorrupted Men of the West, greatly outnumbered by those of the East and South'
Sauron was more powerful than the five Wizards for example.
Two things I love most, good horses and beautiful women, And when I die I hope they tan this old hide of mine and make it into a ladies riding saddle, So I can rest in peace between the two things I love.
- Russell J. Larsen
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jul 7 2015, 6:05pm
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They had their powers limited, but not completely withdrawn, or else they'd be regular, powerless beings like hobbits. Which makes sense, because if they were running about Middle-earth stirring up alliances against Sauron, why wouldn't he just have them killed as a nuisance? The fact that Gandalf could fight back against the Nine shows that he wasn't to be dismissed so easily.
But it doesn't seem to say anywhere if Radagast was more powerful than the Blues. My own thinking is that Radagast comes across as neither very smart nor very powerful, so if the Blues were weaker than him, no wonder they disappeared! But for that reason, I suspect they were somewhere between him and Gandalf. We get to draw our own conclusions on this one.
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emre43
Rohan
Jul 7 2015, 6:15pm
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Although in saying Radagast isn't as powerful as the other wizards I think we can assume that he is still incredibly powerful.
Two things I love most, good horses and beautiful women, And when I die I hope they tan this old hide of mine and make it into a ladies riding saddle, So I can rest in peace between the two things I love.
- Russell J. Larsen
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squire
Half-elven
Jul 7 2015, 6:39pm
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What should we think Tolkien means by saying about his own story, "Radagast is presented as a person of much less power and wisdom"? Presented by whom? Are we meant by this peculiar phrasing to wonder if, in some other presentation, Radagast might not in fact be of equal power and wisdom as Saruman and Gandalf?
I think Tolkien even here as he assigns the wizards a kind of hierarchy, dances around the idea that power is what the wizards are about: Saruman is said to be first in "stature", Gandalf next in "order", Radagast's reported failings are joined: power and wisdom go together. Their mission is to enhance resistance, not reinforce 'waning power'; as he notes elsewhere, the wizards do have innate power, but are forbidden to use what they have except in extraordinary cases; their mission and mode is emotional and spiritual, not physical or compulsory.
This passage (from Unfinished Tales) goes on to note that each of the Istari had, in a sense, different powers reflecting the various "peoples of the Valar" that they were chosen from. Thus Radagast and the last two wizards' powers, whatever they were, would have been of as different natures as Gandalf's and Saruman's were. Could Saruman dominate Radagast in debate, or soothe Gandalf's suspicions about the Ring? Sure. But could Saruman understand the Ents, or prevent the Eagles from aiding Gandalf? Not at all. Who then had the greater power?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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emre43
Rohan
Jul 7 2015, 6:46pm
Post #9 of 9
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I was talking about in very basic terms magical power
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Which I'm sure Tolkien was when he referred to Radagast possessing less power than Gandalf and Saruman.
Two things I love most, good horses and beautiful women, And when I die I hope they tan this old hide of mine and make it into a ladies riding saddle, So I can rest in peace between the two things I love.
- Russell J. Larsen
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