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The Arda 300: #'s 80-61

Dân o’Nandor-on-Anduin
Rivendell

Jul 7 2015, 4:43am

Post #1 of 13 (2374 views)
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The Arda 300: #'s 80-61 Can't Post

 
#80 Beleg Cúthalion, chief of the marchwardens of Doriath – sinda soldier
[TG:47,EoA:4,Wik:18,RF:21,JT:31,MD:2,DK:1,JG:1,LR/SL/CH:12,HM/UT:53,HoF+:3=193pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Beleg
A healthy amount of points awarded to him across the board, including 3pts from several favourite-character lists that I included way back. His legacy is bolstered whenever I attempt to order a Cuthalion on tap at a bar, and then explain why that means a Strongbow cider…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUsLvRXJtP8

#79 Fingon the Valiant, 5th King of the Noldor – noldo king
[TG:34,EoA:8,Wik:11,RF:23,JT:19,DD:22,DK:5,LR/SL/CH:7,UT/HM:58,HoF+:7=194pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Fingon
Rescuing Maedhros is obviously his main claim to fame. Note that in Tolkien Gateway, Fingon as the father of Gil-galad is mentioned only under ‘Other versions of the Legendarium’, and is rightly labelled an “editorial mistake”. Fingon’s ultimate slayer appears just below. (The storm of evil threatened his very life every day…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOYlcXF0ok4

#78 Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs – maia balrog lord
[TG:49,Wik:15,RF:7,JT:13,MD:26,DD:23,LR/SL/CH:4,UT/HM:57,HoF+:2=196pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/...mog,_Lord_of_Balrogs
He’s the highest ranking, and third Balrog to appear on this list, after Durin’s Bane just a few spots back, and the Balrog of the Echoriath, one of the added unindexed characters back near #1200. Maybe there were only 3. Perhaps 7. Maybe, as the tale of the Fall of Gondolin reads, there were Greater and Lesser balrogs in abundance. And perhaps Gothmog was, as his original story reads, the son of Morgoth and the ogress Ulbandi. Nonetheless, as villains go in the First Age, he certainly ranks with Sauron himself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XJkjVMk_oE

#77 Thorondor, Lord of the Eagles – eagle lord
[TG:30,EoA:19,Wik:5,RF:16,JT:27,DD:25,MD:1,DK:1,LR/SL/CH:11,UT/HM:62=197pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Thorondor
Speaking of the highest-ranking of their species…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnlTrq6wLf0

#76 Ingwë, High King of all the Elves – vanya king
[TG:25,EoA:7,Wik:8,RF:8,JT:12,MD:3,DD:12,JG:2,LR/SL/CoH:6,UT/HM:115=198pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Ingw%C3%AB
No surprise that this character acquires the most points from UT & HoMe so far at 115. Not until the Doomsman of the Valar appears will that be exceeded. (In a place you only dream of, where your soul is always free, silver stages, golden curtains, fill my head as plain as could be… now if I let you see this place, where stories all ring true… it’s not for me to ask this question as though I were a king… for you have to love, believe, and feel before the burst of tambourines take you there…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q3cqwpnVH0

#75 Elwing the White, Princess of Doriath (f) – sinda princess
[TG:28,EoA:9,Wik:6,RF:22,JT:37,MD:3,DD:38,DK:1,JG:1,LR/SL/CH:10,Let:1,UT/HM:44=200pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Elwing
The survivor of Doriath, and mother of Elrond & Elros, appears well before her husband, for better or worse. (Their respective songs also overlap, as the contexts, but not the genders, in both cases, are applicable…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxIWDmmqZzY

#74 Carcharoth, Wolf of Angband – wolf guard
[TG:32,EoA:27,Wik:7,RF:16,JT:31,MD:3,DD:22,LR/SL/CH:9,UT/HM:54=201pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Carcharoth
Speaking, again, of the highest-ranking of their species… (And as I previously devoted a Dead song because I couldn’t decide between 2, and wanted to honour the Overseer of this list, I’ll do so again – especially noting this being the last weekend they will ever perform, so they say…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftjEGtMvoTM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJi54s3HwTU

#73 Telperion the White, eldest of the Two Trees of Valinor (n) – tree
[TG:28,EoA:24,Wik:8,RF:16,JT:5,MD:4,DK:5.LR/SL/CH:16,UT/HM:97=203pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Telperion
Once again, this is the last and highest-ranking Tree, though one-&-a-half Tree-like entities will still appear. (And the weak connection being the colour, this is for sador of TORN…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EV49ozdqLU

#72 Radagast the Brown, the Bird-tamer – maia istar wizard
[TG:129:,EoA:10,Wik:13,RF:9,JT:6,MD:5,DD:11,JR:1,LR/SL/CH:4,Let:1,UT/HM:18=207pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Radagast
Yes, Tolkien Gateway (and that means Jackson), affords him an inordinate amount of points that won’t be exceeded until Balin chimes in. But Jackson aside, this member of the Istari was an original Hobbit character, and played a role in LotR. (And as one of the secret elders of a gentle race, all he sees turns to Brown…).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW_WLxseq0o

#71 Shelob the Great, ‘Her Ladyship’ (f) – spider (guard?)
[TG:40,EoA:8,Wik:18,RF:17,JT:19,MD:47,DD:26,JR:2,LR/SL/CH:10,Let:1,UT/HM:18,HoF+:2=208pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Shelob
Unlike those above, she’s not the last of her species that will appear. (Not necessarily a top-100 contender, but a natural choice from my favourite band…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgx7abJH6uI

#70 Thranduil the Elvenking, 2nd King of the Woodland Realm – sinda king
[TG:88,EoA:27,Wik:7,RF:18,JT:52,LR/SL/CH:5,UT/HM:12=209pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Thranduil
Almost half his points come from Tolkien Gateway, bolstered by Jackson no doubt. But Tyler devotes a page-&-a-half to him also, resulting in a quarter of his points. He can’t be denied, though he longed for yesterday…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S09F5MejfBE

#69 Aredhel the White Lady of the Noldor, Princess of Gondolin – noldo princess
[TG:43,EoA:13,Wik:13,RF:22,JT:32,MD:1,DK:7,JR:1,LR/SL/CH:6,UT/HM:71=209pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Aredhel
Seven points from Kane for this Princess, who appears ahead of her ‘husband’, but just below her son…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVcl0Iw3fs8

#68 Maglor the Minstrel, 2nd son of Fëanor – noldo prince/minstrel
[TG:56,EoA:27,Wik:19,RF:19,JT:42,MD:3,DK:2,LR/SL/CH:6,UT/HM:40=214pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Maglor
In the ‘Lay of Leithian’ Maglor is cited as one of the 3 greatest minstrels, along with Daeron (back at #119) and Tinfang Warble (at #332).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7KRVAWx3nU

#67 Nienor, sister of Túrin Turambar – 3rd-house adan
[TG:38,EoA:2,Wik:27,RF:26,JT:34,MD:2,DK:5,JG:1,LR/SL/CH:14,UT/HM:70=216pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Nienor
I have no words for this unfortunate character (but I have the song…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM0im3V8HlU

#66 Maeglin, Lord of the House of the Mole of Gondolin – noldo lord
[TG:43,EoA:8,Wik:9,RF:20,JT:56,MD:2,DK:5,LR/SL/CH:10,UT/HM:66=219pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Maeglin
So, 3 Lords of the Houses of Gondolin remain after Maeglin of the Mole…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmfrPrN1L_s

#65 Hador Lórindol, 5th Lord of the Third House of the Edain – 3rd-house adan lord
[TG:32,EoA:10,Wik:18,RF:12,JT:36,DK:7,LR/SL/CH:22,UT/HM:86=223pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Hador
I think he’s one of the most underrated characters in all of the Legendarium, but #65 ain’t bad. (And he was Golden-haired…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjKtfvKJSuk

#64 Morwen ‘Elfsheen’, mother of Túrin Turambar – 1st-house adan
[TG:27,EoA:23,Wik:24,RF:23,JT:28,DK:3,JR:2,JG:1,LR/SL/CH:15,UT/HM:85=231pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Morwen
Kane is regularly adding 3 or more points to each character from here on in, especially the women. Morwen is no exception. (Túrin and John Lennon certainly have a few things in common…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eto7S-oBErk

#63 Aulë the Smith – vala smith
[TG:30,EoA:9,Wik:20,RF:22,JT:8,DD:18,MD:10,JR:1,DK:7,JG:1,Let:1,LR/SL/CH:8,UT/HM:78,HoF+:20=233pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Aule
He’s the first to appear of the big 3 shapers of Arda, the Valar of Land, Air & Sea: Aulë, of course, shaping the land. (In and around the lake, mountains come out of the sky, and they stand there…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmZoQFYYx8U

#62 Gríma Wormtongue, counsellor of Rohan – rohirrim counsellor
[TG:62,EoA:9,Wik:32,RF:13,JT:22,MD:45,DD:16,Let:1,LR/SL/CH:6,UT/HM:28=234pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Grima_Wormtongue
From here on in, most characters get their own entry in Drout’s Encyclopedia; Gríma being no exception as Janet Brennan Croft does a good job of describing true evil. (Though I had Stranglehold by Nugent lined up for the longest time, only one song can capture such evil, I think…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8SImoLm_UI

#61 Celegorm the Fair, 3rd son of Fëanor – noldo prince
[TG:39,EoA:55,Wik:13,RF:26,JT:57,DK:2,LR/SL/CH:6,UT/HM:44=242pts]
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Celegorm
He’s the Fair of the sons, and had his eyes on Luthien. (Of them all, maybe he needed somebody to love…)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NPamQDwgjE


glossary:

*=as in CT's indexing in UT (ie. characters not appearing in Hobbit/LotR/AdvTB/Sil)
@=guest at Bilbo’s Farewell Party
(f)=female (n)=neutral

POINTS: TG=Tolkien Gateway,EoA=Encyclopedia of Arda,Wik=Wikipedia,RF=Robert Foster’s Complete Guide to Middle-earth,JT=J.E.A. Tyler’s Tolkien Companion,DD=David Day’s A-Z of Tolkien,HC=Humphrey Carpenter’s Biography,JG=John Garth’s Tolkien and the Great War,JR=John Rateliff’s History of The Hobbit,DK=Douglas Kane’s Arda Reconstructed,MD=Michael Drout’s Tolkien Encyclopedia,Let=Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien,LR/SL/CH=Lord of the Rings, Silmarillion, Children of Hurin,UT/HM=Unfinished Tales, History of Middle-earth,HoF+=votes from the Hall of Fire thread that initiated this project + a composite of selected favourite character lists.


sador
Half-elven


Jul 10 2015, 2:33pm

Post #2 of 13 (2265 views)
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Thank you for another great list! [In reply to] Can't Post

There is simply a lot to comment on this list - practially every character, whether about ranking, content of your remarks or your choice of songs - sometimes on more than one subject.


As I have found out I recommended once a song already on your list - I had to go back to the master list to avoid this happening again. So I will reply properly on Sunday or Monday.
I understood from a comment you made on HoF - that guess who being Canadian, you had No time while the Stanley Cup finals were on. I hope you've enjoyed the games - although with the Cup last being in Canada over twenty years ago (about the time I was last there!), I guess who can't be too happy about the results...


(I would have suggested that song for Bregalad, who once answered Yes before the elder Ent had finished his question - had I been as obnoxious as I have become back thenWink).



Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jul 10 2015, 2:55pm

Post #3 of 13 (2259 views)
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Don't be hasty! [In reply to] Can't Post

Heart

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Dân o’Nandor-on-Anduin
Rivendell

Jul 13 2015, 12:02pm

Post #4 of 13 (2213 views)
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The Guess Who will appear... [In reply to] Can't Post

in the next batch of 20.
You can already see them appear in the next batch of 10 on both other sites, for a splendid lady...

Off-topic, but in response, sador: I don't care that a Stanley Cup hasn't been awarded to a Canadian team in over 20yrs, as I was cheering for the Chicago Blackhawks anyway. I'm a member of SIHR, the Society of International Hockey Research (as is our PM btw), the equivalent of SABR, the Society of American Baseball Research. My next project, through them, will be an objective list of the top 200-250 professional hockey teams of all time, and the current Hawks have now made the top 20.

Back to Tolkien, if you want to see the last of the Trees that will appear, they're already there on HoF & TORC... Smile


(This post was edited by Dân o’Nandor-on-Anduin on Jul 13 2015, 12:03pm)


sador
Half-elven


Jul 13 2015, 3:53pm

Post #5 of 13 (2201 views)
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I saw it, thank you. [In reply to] Can't Post

When I've went through the master-list on HoF, I've seen the next ten. But I will comment on them with the next batch you'll post here - and probably be a couple of weeks late, as I think I won't be able to make any long posts in the next week anbd the following one.
I will comment in length on this batch, perhaps tomorrow.

Going through the master-list, I've noticed one song I have recommended had appeared already, a few other cases of misremembring (I thought Cream appeared before the top-100, and also seemed to remember the Beach Boys), and some broken links. Several of them I have remembered and added to my copy of the list (such as Lola); but four links I could not.
Two of these songs were by Ozzy Osbourne and Black Sabbath, and I don't really mind missing them (with no offense meant towards their fans); but there was a song by Rush for Tar-Meneldur (no. 149), and I have no idea which song was for Pelendur on no. 220. Could you find out which songs they were?


On the other hand, I've noticed two doubles - Purple Rain by Prince appears on nos. 232 (for Thrain I) and 111 (for Imrahil), and Led Zeppelin's The Ocean on nos. 246 (for Salmar Noldorin) and 94 (for Olwe).

It's up to you whether to change songs, and to which; I did suggest Home by the Sea for Imrahil, and could also think of King Crimson's Isalnds for either Salmar or Olwe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUQ6aRwFGRs), and the Zombies' Imagine the Swan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtU50hKztfw) for either Olwe or Imrahil.


sador
Half-elven


Jul 15 2015, 3:00pm

Post #6 of 13 (2183 views)
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Answers, at last [In reply to] Can't Post

(I'm not even sure I'll finish today, but we'll see)
Trying to come up with suggestions for two double songs was an edifying experience; it just showed what an enormous task you have taken. Thank you!
Naturally, once I postpone answering, I have several ideas of my own for songs - and now there is more occasion for them, as the characters have more to say about them. So I will bring here several - by no means offering an alternative to your excellent list, just sharing my own ideas.


80 Beleg Cúthalion
He gets a lot of points from Tyler - a source I don't even know, save by name (from your lists).

In an old thread, I quoted Tom Petty's Refugee as Beleg's message to Túrin; but you've given that song to Anarion, so it can't be re-used unless Anarion has a different song, for instance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bbs_EBRnuBw - after all, he founded Minas Anor, the Tower of the Setting Sun!

79 Fingon the Valiant
I must say I was surprised at his low placing - after all, he seems to have been the greatest Elven-hero of the first age - both rescuing Maedhros and driving away Glaurung! I guess the Silmarillion is more about human heroes, though. And so in The Lord of the Rings - in the description of Sam's attack on Shelob, stating no other sword, had it been forged by elves and dwarves, and wielded by Fingon himself, could have hurt her so (according to the drafts) was ammended in the published LotR to "Beren or Turin". Sic Transit Gloria Mundi.

I saw that Voronwe had protested in the HoF thread against your 'editorial mistake' comment - but I won't comment on that until we get to the true subject of this debate. Another 'editorial mistake' however, was corrected by Christopher Tolkien in The Children of Hurin - the giving of his speech, warning against a trp by Morgoth, to Hurin (in accordance with earlier versions of the legend) - once again, unfortunately showing Fingon as a rash leader, who has to be restrained by a mortal counsellor.

I don't think he was perpetually looking for shelter - quite the contrary. And the song Gloria was used way back, for Hador's daughter Gloredhel. But as the Elf-lord of Hithlum, farthest to the North, and having gone far to the north to save Maedhros - won't https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV8uvKqlcQY be appropriate for him? (as well as the rest of the lyrics)

78 Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs
Is there no entry for him in the EoA? How odd!

Wasn't there also a Balrog named Lungorthin somewhere in The Lays of Beleriand? Of course, he could have easily been either the one from the Echoriath or Durin's Bane...

Regarding Gothmog's parentage - well, I am pretty sure that at first he was conceived of as Lord of the Balrogs, but not of the same rank with them - like Sauron was Lord of the Werewolves. But in Tolkien's later drafts there is nothing to support this theory.

And well, I'm not a great fan of hard rock, so despite it being a great resource of songs for demonic characters, I would usually not remember them (I do have an uncharacteristic liking for Iron Maiden, though). I would think first of the Gothic rock of the 1980s (especially with Gothmog's name) - say this ditty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKRJfIPiJGY. But it's not my list.

77 Thorondor
I have just found out that a third translation of The Hobbit to Hebrew was recently published - and again, I had to check out how they translated 'Eagles'. The problem is that the bird which is usually described in the Bible as the kings of all birds is not an eagle, but a vulture - as I've explained already here and here. And sure enough, the translator had explained her doubts, but used the 'proper' name - which has the Biblical connotation of the bird of prey in Jer. 12:9.
So perhaps a different bird was really meant? Isn't the true king of birds the condor?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZAFhvmVJIM

(I also had another idea, but I might keeps it for Thorondor's most famous passenger)

76 Ingwë
A truly mythical person.

I naturally assumed that he was the first Elf to awaken at Cuivienen - but later Tolkien came up with the mysterious story of Imin, Tata and Enel. Now the names Imin and Enel are suspiciously like Ingwe and Elwe, so perhaps JRRT intended them to be the same? That would necessiate an explantion of Elwe having a brother, and whatever that might mean - and also how Tata became Finwe. Or did tragedy strike that family back in Cuivienen already?

I didn't know the Outlaws, so I would never have thought of this song (although I've heard it before). I did have a song in mind about Cuivienen as some sort of Eden - but I think the lyrics there fit Thingol better; and Ultravox' Vienna has the same sound, but nothing more than that.

But if he might have been the first Elf around, he surely began giving everyone and everything names, so I would think of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN3ni0UygYI.

75 Elwing
I see that you plan a similar song for her husband. So perhaps I should wait before recommending that song for anybody else?
And Lynryd Skynryd is a great group, but having Elwing turned to a great white bird reminds of of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Viqr6KHwJjc

74 Carcharoth
The Red Maw, guarding the doors of Angband.
When you began with this list, I was kind of hoping for In the Court of the Crimson King for this fellow; I didn't expect it for Arveleg I!
(And I also didn't expect Duran Duran on this list, either)

73 Telperion the White
Thank you very much for the song, and the mention. Smile

One and a half tree-like entities yet, eh? I suppose you mean Yavanna, based on the curious description of her Voronwe likes so much he used an image of in Arda Reconstructed?

72 Radagast
That is, indeed, an inordiante number of points from TG!

I must say the choice of song is brilliant. I probably wouldn't have thought of it myself - or it would have taken me some time. I like the Stranglers, by the way, but Golden Brown is a weak fit.
But if Jackson gave him so many points - what of Jefferson Airplane's White Rabbit? Or Steve Harley's Sebastian?

But yeah, your pick is the best.

71 Shelob
I really must rush now, so I'll stop now and continue tomorrow. But why did Drout give her so many points?

And the song is sweet indeed. I wouldn't have remembered it, and settled for something to do with spinning - maybe this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK62tfoCmuQ






Dân o’Nandor-on-Anduin
Rivendell

Jul 16 2015, 11:21am

Post #7 of 13 (2154 views)
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late response [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry to take so long to respond to this post. I'll have to get back on your most recent post soon too.

As for the song-links at HoF, yes I've noticed many in the past not successfully linking. As you've pointed out, most of the heavier metallic material... Hmm, you don't suppose... VtF... not a fan? Sly Smile

Anyway, I believe all the song-links do work at TORC, and the list there is unfettered by extraneous chatter! So if you want to be a completist do check it out there. I switched both Azaghal's and Ghan-buri-Ghan's original songs to better ones IMHO on all of TORC, HoF, & HoF master-list.

As for the duplicates, Prince's were 2 different songs. Thrain I's being '1999' due to the year of his founding of Erebor. I know there are all kinds of legal issues with this Artist/Band, thus inaccessibility, but I believe its not an issue outside the US, and TORC is UK.

I will look into the Salmar/Olwe situation, because you may be right, and I'll look into your suggestions.

BTW, 'Home by the Sea' is coming soon...


(This post was edited by Dân o’Nandor-on-Anduin on Jul 16 2015, 11:25am)


sador
Half-elven


Jul 16 2015, 12:47pm

Post #8 of 13 (2146 views)
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Continued from Yesterday [In reply to] Can't Post

The song, of course.

70 Thranduil

Yes, it was kind of expected that Lee Pace would boost his standing.
But Yesterday? You mean when he was Elvenking of Greenwood the Great? Well, it would soon be Eryn Lasgalen, with Leaves that are Green (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTPTzHQEFNU) - a song I like rather less than your choice, but is less of a stretch.

69 Aredhel
Why didn't you mention the name Ar-Finiel? Because, as Kane pointed out, the two names were never used together in the drafts?
Heart's song is a nice one (and it isn't Madonna's song with a similar name, which I don't quite like). The song I would consider as an alternative could wait for the other White Lady coming up (though I wager you'll pick a different, probably better, song for her).

Well, maybe this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_cVCtw7iLA

68 Maglor
Thank you for this song. I know I've mentioned liking the Doors before (and so did Voronwe!), so if you've added it for me - I thank you even more.

Oddly enough, I would never have thought of this song for Maglor - it seems more appropriate to the end of the Ainulindale. I would have thought of either https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxEPV4kolz0 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPqAvgN6Tyw (I did post a Bob Dylan song yesterday, so I've picked up the Byrds).

(There is also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzFIUkQP39o, but I would have prefered it for Daeron)

67 Nienor
I would have expected her to be in a higher place. Only two points from the EoA?

As for the song - well, I have cheated a bit when I said I was thinking of two: based on her nearly-last words "happy to be dead" I looked for something by the Grateful Dead, but couldn't find any. Perhaps Voronwe will have an idea...
But I wouldn't have thought of the song you've picked - even had I been a Blue Oyster Cult fan, I would have rather thought of it in connection with Nienor's father. But all my ideas are already on the list of other characters - you've assigned Jump to Maeglin, and Run Like Hell to Saeros (whose story clearly foreshadows Nienor's, as I suppose many commentators have observed before me); and the song whose lyrics I think fit best is Somebody to Love, which also appears in this list!

66 Maeglin
See above.
And like with Nienor, I would have thought with his convoluted story, of mixed birth, huge talent, love, greed and betrayal - he would be in a higher place!

Also, he didn't jump! Wouldn't https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcgEf1kJ3wo be a better pick?

65 Hador
Like Voronwe in HoME, I am surprised (but not unpleased) to see him in such a high place. And I wish there would have been a story about him, to explain why later generations had venerated him so much...

For once, no alternative song - I just enjoy your pick. Left to my own devices, I would have probably been stumped.

64 Morwen
A truly tragic person. Many points from EoA - have you checked all of her entries, and added them up? The Morwen entry is rather short, but the Lady of Dor-lomin one is quite substantial.

And I'm afraid you've picked a song about Turin, rather than her.
What about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jh49xDNbCg? I think that had Hurin the time or place to engrave a proper epitaph for her on the Stone of the Hapless, he would have come up with something like this... (I think this will be my last King Crimson suggestion, but I don't promise).

63 Aulë
Was this song planned all along, or a tribute to the late Chris Squire? Well done!

When I first saw the list of characters, I was thinking you would have a different song of Yes as a tribute. I was thinking of something connected to a Smith - but neither the Smiths nor Patti Smith have a song which seemed appropriate to the Vala.
And then, on the way to work, some driver had done his best to kill me and several others, and I suddenly felt like Pete Seger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTvr79Oe5w8.

62 Gríma Wormtongue
True evil? I don't think so; at least not for a long time - and I'm not a hundred precent sure Saruman's nauseatic insinuations should be taken as literal truth. Here is my take on Grima.
But then, was Manson pure evil from the beginning?

I also liked your story about Nuguent's song; the rare glimpse into your thought-process was priceless.

61 Celegorm
This puzzled me, as I have never seen him as being more prominent than Curufin, who isn't even in the top 100. But the EoA gives him 55 points (while his brother only two!), and Tyler 57 points more. What for? I don't really know that book.
Anyway, so here he is - ahead of nearly all of his brothers.

When I saw you refering to Luthien, I thought at first the song for him would be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPYzW5_FjwE.

Another possibility would be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83t05YOgWlg, because of his being known as a great hunter - even receiving Huan from Orome! And the lyrics fit the master more than the hound...










Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jul 16 2015, 2:30pm

Post #9 of 13 (2133 views)
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If there are fixes to be made on the master list, I'm more than happy to make them [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if it is true that I am not a big fan of some of the harder metal stuff. Tongue


Feel free to provide me a list or even random examples. Either of you.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jul 16 2015, 2:36pm

Post #10 of 13 (2131 views)
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Song for Niegor [In reply to] Can't Post

I was consider The Days Between, simply because I think it is one of the saddest songs ever written (and the last great Garcia/Hunter collaboration), and Niniel is one of the saddest characters ever written:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz_gT0M9q-4

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jul 16 2015, 3:29pm

Post #11 of 13 (2123 views)
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Lyrics (and obviously "Niegor" should be read as "Nienor") [In reply to] Can't Post

There were days
and there were days
and there were days between
Summer flies and August dies
the world grows dark and mean
Comes the shimmer of the moon
on black infested trees
the singing man is at his song
the holy on their knees
The reckless are out wrecking
The timid plead their pleas
No one knows much more of this
than anyone can see anyone can see

There were days
and there were days
and there were days besides
when phantom ships with phantom sails
set to sea on phantom tides
Comes the lightning of the sun
on bright unfocused eyes
the blue of yet another day
a springtime wet with sighs
a hopeful candle lingers
in the land of lullabies
where headless horsemen vanish
with wild and lonely cries lonely cries

There were days
and there were days
and there were days I know
when all we ever wanted
was to learn and love and grow
Once we grew into our shoes
we told them where to go
Walked halfway around the world
on promise of the glow
Stood upon a mountain top
Walked barefoot in the snow
Gave the best we had to give
How much we'll never know we'll never know

There were days
and there were days
and there were days between
polished like a golden bowl
The finest ever seen
Hearts of Summer held in trust
still tender, young and green
left on shelves collecting dust
not knowing what they mean
Valentines of flesh and blood
as soft as velveteen
hoping love would not forsake
the days that lie between lie between

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Dân o’Nandor-on-Anduin
Rivendell

Jul 17 2015, 2:39pm

Post #12 of 13 (2021 views)
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another late & lengthy response [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks sador, as always for your input & enthusiasm!

First, about the character-list. If you check the Encyclopedia of Arda, you'll see that Nienor does indeed warrant only 2pts. Also, if you check the separate entries there for Curufin and Celegorm, you'll see the latter certainly dwarfs the former, and the story was similar as I double-checked my other resources. Remember, not only did Celegorm love Luthien, but Orome gave him Huan, who betrayed Celegorm, and that itself was a secondary story of note.

Mixing now the characters and the music, I've taken both yours and VTF's advice and will replace 'Helter Skelter' for Grima. Though the song came out well before the murders, the trial, and Bugliosi's book, it was I that made the connection, and admit I carelessly used the word 'evil' there. Your seconding of 'Stranglehold' now convinces me I should have went with it all along.


Now solely about the music, so off-topic for most:


Your 'Leaves that are Green' is a perfect choice, sador... a perfect choice that is for Legolas Greenleaf of Gondolin back about #400! Wink (Maybe when this is over I'll start backwards from #301... but don't bet on it).

At this point, I once again have to state that the motive is not so much finding the absolute perfect song that describes the character and/or mood with unerringly relatable lyrics and/or melody; but fitting those classic rock-songs that perpetually rank at least in the top 500, if not 100, into my list of the 'top' Tolkien characters.


(For VTF, too). The Buffalo, NY, station I listen to most has had a Grateful Dead Hour every Saturday Night at midnight for the last 30yrs. But rarely do more than 4 Dead songs make these types of lists. Their most recent 500-list had 'Truckin' at 296 and 'Touch of Grey' at 462. Another station I listen to, from another country no less (mine), had a 1500-countdown, with 'Truckin' at 208, 'Uncle John's Band' at 509, 'Touch of Grey' at 854, and 'Casey Jones' at 862. (Incidentally, King Crimson's '21st Century Schizoid Man' was #1494 on that list).


Like I said, I welcome all input, and I'm still debating that replacement for Salmar or Olwe. But if I may say, sador, you've actually made a few erroneous conclusions; for instance that I like Neil Young better than The Doors. Never have, never will. Smile

Neither list is about what I like. (I certainly would have had Finwe & Maedhros reversed, at the very least).

I like some of, but not all of, southern-rock, country-rock, psychedelic-rock, folk, punk, metal, grunge, easy-listening, and even disco, jazz, & classical (though the latter ones have no place on these lists). I've seen live, The Stones, The Who, The Kinks, The Dead, Neil Young, Van Morrison, Rush, ACDC, Cheap Trick, Styx, Kiss, Bad Company, Blue Oyster Cult, Def Leppard, Judas Priest, many multiple times, and many more I'm forgetting.

Furthermore, on the lists I've listened to, on multiple stations, over 30yrs, 'Stairway to Heaven' has ranked from #1-#17 (though usually at the top). 3 or 4 other songs have managed to make it to #1 on occasion (all of which make it onto this list). The few songs usually near the top that won't translate here to Tolkien, are 'Satisfaction' by the Stones, 'LA Woman' by the Doors, 'American Woman' by the Guess Who, 'You Really Got Me' by the Kinks/VH, 'Sweet Emotion' by Aerosmith, 'Sunday Bloody Sunday' by U2, or 'La Grange' by ZZ Top, amongst others.

So that's a gist of how the top-40 is going to play out, and how things have fallen so far.

OK, I've said way too much! #'s 40-31 are on their way... Cool


(This post was edited by Dân o’Nandor-on-Anduin on Jul 17 2015, 2:45pm)


sador
Half-elven


Jul 24 2015, 7:53am

Post #13 of 13 (1840 views)
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Having some time to answer [In reply to] Can't Post

For one thing, there is nthing you need to justify or defend. I know from experience how difficult making such lists is - thinking up an algorithm which is realtively fair and reliable, and then the actual tedious research, trying to sort out what to put under which entry (in Tolkien this is a real problem, with his constant changes of names and roles assigned to ever-evolving characters), all the time resisting the temptations to tweak the results a bit in favour of this or that character.
I know all of that; as a niggler myself, I've tried similar projects before, of less scope - and have usually failed. I have in my mind stored all kind of neat patterns on a wide variety of topics, with nothing to show for it expect for showing off in conversations.
So my hat is off to you - for seeing this enormous project through, and for presenting it in a clear way, above the board, with all sources documented. There is of course the problem of the constant evolution of online sources - the EoA could decide to write a proper entry for Gothmog, for instance, which would move him a dozen of places forward - and the possibility of human error; but nothing distracts from its being a remarkable achievement, on a scale and level I never could attain myself. And the results seem fair, even if here and there I express a surprise. I see that in HoF you've already published the list up to no. 21, and there are several more positions there which I find unexpected. One of those which apparently has made it to the remaining top 20, I would have expected to be around no. 50; but then, I have no little familiarity with the online resources, and perhaps I shouldn't be surprised.


On a side-note, regarding Celegorm - he is significantly ahead of his brother in two sources, the EoA and Tyler; and while he has those two defining traits which set him apart, Curufin did share his father's name, was the father of Celebrimbor, had the knife Angrist (which suggests a mysterious conection with Telchar), and played an important role in the tragedy of Eol, Aredhel and Maeglin. Which does not say he "should" be placed higher, or that your list is wrong - only that both the EoA and Tyler could have allotted them a different relative importance, and pehaps some other sources exist who did.


As for the music - I am sorry if I jumped into the wrong conclusion about your preferences, based on the first two hundred entries. It was natural to suppose the list reflects them - and I'm sure it does, to some extent; even if it is supposed to reflect the lists of a certain radio station, it is after all the one you choose to listen, so I can assume a certain allignment of tastes...


Regarding my comments - they were not intended as criticism, and I had no intention of influencing your pick of songs (although I am thankful for the occasions you did). But once I've caught myself mentioning a song that was already on the list, but i hve forgotten about (Gloria by the Them). I have made my own spreadsheet as a copy of your list, and as a matter of course added your and others', and naturally my own, suggestion for alternative songs. This led me to thinking which songs I would pick in your place, and naturally to a list of songs which you might use in the coming posts. But that list is base on the free associations I make between songs and characters, which are often prompted by your suggestions, but not always.
And having the RR LotR discussion on hiatus till September, also gave me more time for this. Smile


I checked HoF, and saw the countdown has reached no. 21. Just checking the songs, I see some that I really love (although unfortunately, they don't always seem the best fit to the characters...), and several I do not recognise - although that is natural, as they are by acts I seldom listen to. There even are a coupld of song I had attributed to other characters.in my provisional list.
All of which means that on the next Sunday, when I will be able to listen properly to you lists, I will be able to write a long list of comments on no. 60-21, before even listening to one. But I will also have to catch up at work - once the Boys are Back in Town, my boss will naturally expect it.
And in the meantime, your countdown will probably be over; which might make any comments by me not worthwhile - unless either you or VtF will still be interested, of course.






And another question - I have managed to reconstruct all of your previous lists, with one exception: the song for Pelendur, on no. 220. Which song was it?
,

 
 

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