|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Bombadil
Half-elven
Jul 6 2015, 2:42am
Post #1 of 28
(3238 views)
Shortcut
|
"The White Gems of Lasgalen"...
|
Can't Post
|
|
OKAY..what do you SUPPOSE that means..?
Are these white gems from some place called "Lasgalen"?
OR
Are these white gems named that? for Thranduiels' wife {Lasgalen...?}
OR
Are they some Special gems from the Mountains of Mirkwood?
OR
Are they something really powerful like a Palantir..?
Finally, will we find out their Significance in the Extended Edition?
..Bomby does think it would be NICE to know
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
|
|
|
Morthoron
Gondor
Jul 6 2015, 3:47am
Post #2 of 28
(3168 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Another mistake by Jackson....
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Eryn Lasgalen ("Wood of Greenleaves") is the Sindarin term Thranduil and Celeborn chose to rename Mirkwood after the One Ring was destroyed and Sauron was defeated. Previous to the great forest being called Mirkwood due to the unwholesomeness that had crept in during the 3rd Age, it was known as "Greenwood the Great" (or Eryn Galen). Jackson pulled the word from his posterior, obviously.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 6 2015, 4:05am
Post #3 of 28
(3161 views)
Shortcut
|
Well, Eryn Lasgalen was the name by which Mirkwood was known after the end of the Third Age. The name translates as "Wood of Greenleaves." As far as I know the name has no special significance in regards to Thranduil's queen. She might have had an especially strong love for the 'green leaves' of the forest and the name might reflect that.
There is no indication that the gems or the necklace possessed any special or magical qualities. Tolkien wrote that Thranduil did have a particular love for silver and for white gems, so there is some significance to having the Necklace of Lasgalen composed of those materials.
There could be some revelation concerning the gems in the extended edition of TH:BotFA, but I'm not hoping for much on that particular score.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 6 2015, 4:06am)
|
|
|
Arthael
Lorien
Jul 6 2015, 4:43am
Post #4 of 28
(3147 views)
Shortcut
|
If Legolas goes by the sirname (or nickname) Greenleaf, and Lasgalen is Sindarin for Greenleaves, could it not stand to reason that Lasgalen, if not the official "last name" of the family, at least represents their bloodline? Cementing the jewels as heirlooms?
"There are no safe paths in this part of the world. Remember you are over the Edge of the Wild, and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go."
|
|
|
Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jul 6 2015, 6:24am
Post #5 of 28
(3105 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Greenleaf is not his surame...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It is a literal translation of his actual name: Legolas contains the Sindarin words laeg ("green") and golas (being a prefixed collective form of las(s) "leaf"). The Quenya translation of Legolas is Laiqualassë.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 6 2015, 8:12am
Post #6 of 28
(3071 views)
Shortcut
|
There is the other Legolas, also known as Legolas Greenleaf, who was an Elf of the House of the Tree who escaped the Fall of Gondolin. After the First Age he moved to Tol Eressëa where he lived under the name Laiqalassë.
Gandalf in LotR does at least once refer to Legolas of the Fellowship as Legolas Greenleaf (redundant as that may be).
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 6 2015, 8:16am)
|
|
|
CathrineB
Rohan
Jul 6 2015, 11:18am
Post #7 of 28
(3009 views)
Shortcut
|
They had to pull the name "Eryn Lasgalen" from somewhere right? So maybe in a way they could have later come up with that name because of the jewels?
Anyway I don't know that part of Tolkien's history as well so yeah... just a suggestion 
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Jul 6 2015, 12:45pm
Post #8 of 28
(2968 views)
Shortcut
|
Tolkien seems to have changed his mind. From texts dating to after The Lord of the Rings was published...
'... For this formation cf. laicalasse; green-leaf = green as leaves. laic-olasse, green foliage, Laegolas.' entry Vanimelda
[at another occurance of Legolas]
'S. Legolas
green must be laiká NOT laiqua
Legolas: laeg, green + go-las 'foliage' Q walass(s), olassie'
Both quotes from Tolkien's Words, Phrases and Passages, published in Parma Eldalamberon 17
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Jul 6 2015, 1:04pm
Post #9 of 28
(2962 views)
Shortcut
|
Yes there is another Legolas in an external sense, but for myself I doubt Tolkien would have kept this name for the keen-sighted Elf in Gondolin, if in fact he retained this character as well. There is another Gimli in the early Fall of Gondolin for instance, but he is an Elf, and the name has to do with hearing.
Not that you said otherwise 
Anyway Legolas the Gnome (one of the Noldoli) appears in the very early version of The Fall of Gondolin, a section which Tolkien never updated. Here the name Legolas naturally has a Gnomish (not Sindarin) etymology, with Laiqalasse being early Qenya -- and actually, this Elf's name might only mistakenly be Legolas in this early tale, as...
('Note: Laigolas = green-leaf (...) But perhaps both were his names, as the Gnomes delighted to give two similar sounding names of dissimilar meaning, as Laigolas Legolast, Turin Turambar, etc. Legolas the ordinary form is a confusion of the two." JRRT, Book Of Lost Tales
Of course after Tolkien borrowed the name from his earlier self, he gave it a very different history to reflect the background of the character from Mirkwood: now Legolas is a Silvan form of pure Sindarin Laegolas.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jul 6 2015, 1:15pm)
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Jul 6 2015, 1:51pm
Post #10 of 28
(2938 views)
Shortcut
|
Gandalf in LotR does at least once refer to Legolas of the Fellowship as Legolas Greenleaf (redundant as that may be).
It may be that Greenleaf, being English, represents a Westron form, and Gandalf chooses to use both the Elvish and Westron at this point.
The "narrator" of a section in the Appendices also refers to Thingol as "Thingol Greycloak", and we know Thingol means Grey-cloak. This sort of thing might also be the fictional modern translator (Tolkien) injecting this "doubling" of Elvish plus Westron forms, giving the reader the meaning within the context of the translation conceit (translating Westron with English).
Or something...
... but anyway Tolkien appears to note that Hobbits having inherited surnames are unique at this period, while suggesting that Aragorn will begin a "family name" tradition with Telcontar, as a seeming exception. "In the case of persons, however, Hobbit names in the Shire and in Bree were for those days peculiar, notably in the habit that had grown up, some centuries before this time of having inherited names for families." Appendix F
Although there are examples of Men in Bree as well, at least with seeming surnames, but this may be due to Hobbit influence there, perhaps.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jul 6 2015, 2:00pm)
|
|
|
Nuradar
Rohan
Jul 6 2015, 2:43pm
Post #11 of 28
(2909 views)
Shortcut
|
|
How did the Dwarves obtain the white gems?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Hi everyone. I know this wasn't the intent of this thread, but I've been trying to find out how the dwarves came to have the white gems.
Can anyone enlighten me? Thank you!
Nuradar
|
|
|
Bombadil
Half-elven
Jul 6 2015, 3:02pm
Post #12 of 28
(2900 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Elves needed the Dwarves to Fashion it
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
into a Necklace...Those elves Don't work metal..
BUT if they don't THEN they Must have gor all their Spears, Swords etc.
from the Dwarves of Erebor..?
Someone here has the answer...
OVER to you Groovy Guys & Gals.
BOM
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 6 2015, 3:05pm
Post #13 of 28
(2899 views)
Shortcut
|
Yes there is another Legolas in an external sense, but for myself I doubt Tolkien would have kept this name for the keen-sighted Elf in Gondolin, if in fact he retained this character as well. There is another Gimli in the early Fall of Gondolin for instance, but he is an Elf, and the name has to do with hearing.
Maybe Tolkien would have altered the name of the Legolas of Gondolin and maybe not. Some names do show up more than once in Tolkien's legendarium and even cross racial lines. Denethor, for example, is 1) a Sindar Elf; 2) the tenth Ruling Steward of Gondor; and 3) the twenty-sixth and last Ruling Steward of Gondor. And, of course, it has been long-debated whether Glorfindel was one character who was reincarnated and returned to Middle-earth, or two distinct characters.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 6 2015, 3:13pm
Post #14 of 28
(2898 views)
Shortcut
|
|
No, I did not mean that Greenleaf was a surname.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I was just pointing out its use by Tolkien. In fact, he used it at least twice in LotR, both times in TTT. The first time is when Gandalf the White relays Lady Galadriel's message for Legolas:
Legolas Greenleaf long under tree
In joy thou hast lived. Beware of the Sea!
If thou hearest the cry of the gull on the shore,
Thy heart shall then rest in the forest no more.
The second time is just before the appearance of the Ents before the company of King Théoden.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 6 2015, 3:13pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 6 2015, 3:27pm
Post #15 of 28
(2887 views)
Shortcut
|
|
We don't know the origin of the White Gems of Lasgalen
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Thranduil seems to have provided the gems in the first place for the making of his necklace. The real mystery is from where did he get them? The White Gems are from the films and not Tolkien (although he did note in The Hobbit that the Elvenking was partial to such gems). They might have been mined by the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains in the First Age. Or they might have been from either the Misty Mountains or the Grey Mountains. Or originally from Erebor itself. We cannot know unless it is revealed in the background material for the films.
And it is too simple to just say that Elves do not work metal; the Noldor certainly did, as did the smiths of Rivendell. It might be more correct to say that the Wood-elves do not work metal. Even so, weapons might be an exception. Remember that the Woodland Realm is comprised of Sindar Elves, other Teleri. and perhaps Avari as well.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 6 2015, 3:28pm)
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Jul 6 2015, 3:45pm
Post #16 of 28
(2875 views)
Shortcut
|
Maybe Tolkien would have altered the name of the Legolas of Gondolin and maybe not. Some names do show up more than once in Tolkien's legendarium and even cross racial lines. Denethor, for example, is 1) a Sindar Elf; 2) the tenth Ruling Steward of Gondor; and 3) the twenty-sixth and last Ruling Steward of Gondor.
Yes but considering that Legolas, in the updated scenario, is a Silvan form, I think "maybe not" for a character from Gondolin. Laegolas would be an option however, which sounds a bit different of course.
And, of course, it has been long-debated whether Glorfindel was one character who was reincarnated and returned to Middle-earth, or two distinct characters.
Hmm, well it only becomes a question when looking at posthumously published texts -- and the question is only answered one way in posthumously published texts.
The answer being: one Glorfindel in either scenario: that is, in description published by Tolkien himself (one Glorfindel, of Imladris), or in posthumously published description (one Glorfindel, of Gondolin and later Imladris).
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jul 6 2015, 3:51pm)
|
|
|
Nuradar
Rohan
Jul 6 2015, 3:56pm
Post #17 of 28
(2867 views)
Shortcut
|
|
But didn't they belong to his wife?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Sorry to pester you with this, but it's my understanding that the white gems/necklace belonged to Thranduil's wife.
If that's true, how did the dwarves get them?
Thank you.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 6 2015, 4:34pm
Post #18 of 28
(2846 views)
Shortcut
|
Sorry to pester you with this, but it's my understanding that the white gems/necklace belonged to Thranduil's wife.
If that's true, how did the dwarves get them?
I don't think that we know that, nor do we have any evidence that that is the case. Thranduil either wanted the necklace made for his wife or in memory of her--I don't think we even know which of those for certain. He provided the gems and materials to Thror for the crafting of the necklace (according to Jude Fisher's The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies Visual Companion). Probably, the necklace and gems were originally going to be a gift to Thranduil's queen.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Nuradar
Rohan
Jul 6 2015, 6:02pm
Post #19 of 28
(2823 views)
Shortcut
|
Okay, I see now.
Thanks for clarifying that for me Otaku-sempai.
:)
|
|
|
Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jul 6 2015, 8:39pm
Post #20 of 28
(2787 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Thranduil gave the gems to have a necklace made
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Then maybe the dwarves kept the necklace for themselves because they consider that if Thranduil's wife is dead, there is no need any more for a gift to her. Of course that's not Thranduil's point of view.
Maybe Thror wanted to give the necklace to Thranduil's wife because he had some crush on her like Gimli with Galadriel or Kili with Tauriel.
Given that, he would never give the necklace to Thranduil alone, because dwarves are just so greeeeedy.
(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Jul 6 2015, 8:40pm)
|
|
|
Pandallo
Rivendell
Jul 7 2015, 12:28am
Post #21 of 28
(2751 views)
Shortcut
|
That Thror only refused to give the gems back because Thranduil did not pay the appropriate amount to have the necklace fashioned, hence what Bilbo mentions at the start of AUJ EE Paraphrasing: "The Elves claim that the Dwarves stole their treasure. The Dwarves say they did not receive equal payment."
|
|
|
Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jul 7 2015, 6:05am
Post #22 of 28
(2715 views)
Shortcut
|
the job to be done before the engagement. That's commercial basis.
They're both wrong and will stay at odds, until they understand that :
- Dwarves won't find another customer among the elves.
- Elves won't trust anymore dwarves as jewellers and so won't have any other jewels done.
The problem is they both cherish the jewels done.
One solution could be to give two identical stones to cut and one stone cut in payment.
But for that, you have to find two identical stones and that doesn't happen often.
This is a chance (finding a stone) against work (cutting the stone) confrontation.
Chance may be not difficult, but rare and so valuable.
Work is always difficult thus rare and so valuable.
|
|
|
adt100
Rohan
Jul 7 2015, 12:07pm
Post #23 of 28
(2684 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Neither a mistake nor pulled from PJ's posterior
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
If, as is the case, it is a term pulled from Tolkien in relation to Thranduil and Celeborn's naming of Mirkwood. The fact that this occured long after the events of The Hobbit is irrelevant really.
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Jul 7 2015, 12:52pm
Post #24 of 28
(2672 views)
Shortcut
|
By the way, I realize I replied out of context in a sense, concerning Glorfindel at least, as I doubt your point was to merely bring up that the matter of Glorfindel has been debated in the past. I assume your point was rather about different Elves possibly having the same name, since your first example concerned an Elf and two Men...
... so for the record, I'm just adding that (generally speaking) I think two Elves can have the same name. I have always argued so, and it has been argued by others that they can't (the issue of Legolas rather concerns it being a Silvan name, as noted already).
Tolkien appears to have two Elves named Rumil in The Lord of the Rings for example, and in any case, to my mind his "last known" word on the matter (which actually comes from notes to the late Glorfindel texts), was that certain names could be repeated among Elves (like Galdor), others (like Glorfindel) not.
Anyway, just to clarify that
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jul 7 2015, 12:58pm)
|
|
|
Elthir
Grey Havens
Jul 7 2015, 1:25pm
Post #25 of 28
(2659 views)
Shortcut
|
Tolkien appears to have two Elves named Rumil in The Lord of the Rings for example...
Which, incidentally, Tolkien noted as a Quenya name for "... an Elf who seems one of the plain guards and soldiers of the Kingdom." (Tolkien, Words, Phrases and Passages). We see here (in the fuller passage in WPP anyway) Tolkien wondering why a Quenya name for this particular Silvan Elf, with JRRT needing to explain it as a name given by Galadriel... for some reason.
Noting however, that this Rumil had been published in The Lord of the Rings, while Legolas of Gondolin had not been published anywhere (from Tolkien's perspective, despite the Fall of Gondolin having been read aloud at least once), and so could easily be altered.
|
|
|
|
|
1
