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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Question About the Green Dragon

rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell

Jul 5 2015, 9:47pm

Post #1 of 11 (3489 views)
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Question About the Green Dragon Can't Post

Hello all-

I love getting questions from family & friends about LOTR and recently my dad asked me about the green dragon inn. He came across that there was a Green Dragon Tavern that was influential in the American Revolution. He asked if this was perhaps intentional by Tolkien. While I love Tolkien questions and I usually able to give more of an explanation than people want, this one has me stumped.

I think it is unlikely that this was intentional, it could be possible though, but I wanted to see anyone else knows more on this subject than I do. Any thoughts?



P.S. Whatever happened to the symposiums?

Not all those who wander are lost


squire
Half-elven


Jul 5 2015, 10:48pm

Post #2 of 11 (3465 views)
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Just guessing here... [In reply to] Can't Post

My impression is that Tolkien was not a devotee of American history, and would not known about, much less named his fictional Inn in the Shire after, a colonial era tavern in Boston; its notoriety as the lair of the anti-British revolutionaries is a teaser to be sure from an English perspective. It is a remarkable name from a Tolkien fan's perspective, and it would be interesting to research how common that kind of name was in Anglo-American culture in the 1700s and 1800s -- maybe there was also such an Inn somewhere in England, named for similar reasons, that he knew of.

But I have always thought the Green Dragon in LotR was an in-joke by Tolkien in reference to his own memory of being confused, at a young age, of why we say "Great green dragon" rather than "Green great dragon" (see his Letter 163 to W. H. Auden). And of course the name allows him to make a joke about the Shire's ignorance of the fact that dragons (like Smaug in The Hobbit) are actually real in Middle-earth; the Baggins family and friends aside, the hobbits clearly thought the name to be nothing but a bit of colorful mythology, much like (I imagine) the colonists in Boston.

As usual, Bored of the Rings nails the connection: "...back in the Good Old Days ... the planet was populated with the kind of colorful creatures you have to drink a quart of Old Overcoat to see nowadays." Which beverage is, of course, available at your nearest.... tavern.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


tgshaw
The Shire

Jul 6 2015, 12:36pm

Post #3 of 11 (3395 views)
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green great dragon [In reply to] Can't Post

My thought is also that it comes from the "green great dragon"/"great green dragon" question.


rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell

Jul 6 2015, 2:38pm

Post #4 of 11 (3384 views)
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Upon further research [In reply to] Can't Post

There is a pub less than an hour away from Oxford, England that bears the name "The Green Dragon" and it claims to have been there since the 1600s.

Is it possible Tolkien named the hobbit pub after the one he had perhaps visited? It seems like a big coincidence if he did not do this intentionally.

Then, as I walk farther down the path of pure speculation (which can fun), is it possible that the Pub in Boston was named after the very same pub?

In other words, perhaps they share a common ancestor in naming.

Not all those who wander are lost


Findegil
The Shire

Jul 7 2015, 12:09am

Post #5 of 11 (3366 views)
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Dozens of Green Dragons [In reply to] Can't Post

"Dozens of pubs with this name [The Green Dragon] are recorded in Britain. There was one in Oxford, in different buildings in St Aldates, from 1587 until its final demolition in 1926." -- Hammond & Scull, The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion, p. 76.


squire
Half-elven


Jul 7 2015, 12:32am

Post #6 of 11 (3360 views)
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But this is wonderful [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, well that settles that. Clearly that Boston tavern was simply carrying on yet another tradition transplanted from Old England to New. But the next question is:

What did the people of England think a dragon was? Were dragons always green in the English imagination? Is that why the childish Tolkien wanted to write about a "green great dragon"? But why not red (Smaug!), or golden (Glaurung!), or black (Ancalagon!), or white (Roverandom!)?

Or are there other pubs named after other colors of dragons as well?



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell

Jul 7 2015, 1:19am

Post #7 of 11 (3347 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I need to get that reader's companion!

Not all those who wander are lost


Brethil
Half-elven


Jul 8 2015, 7:45pm

Post #8 of 11 (3303 views)
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Hullo Ranger! - just saw this. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

P.S. Whatever happened to the symposiums?


Just various Real Life issues has the three of us a bit tied up. I hope we can get launched again some time this year. If we put to getherany concrete plans, I will PM you in advance.









rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell

Jul 9 2015, 12:30am

Post #9 of 11 (3286 views)
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Sounds Great! [In reply to] Can't Post

I have missed the buzz those created in the reading room. I have stopped periodically and found the RR is just crawling along at points. I was always hoping to see another Symposium. (I still have not finished my research for the last one that never happened.... oh well just another excuse to dive head first into Tolkien's works again).

Not all those who wander are lost


Darkstone
Immortal


Jul 9 2015, 4:32pm

Post #10 of 11 (3207 views)
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One of the very first "fairy tales". [In reply to] Can't Post

"Serpentin Vert", or The Green Serpent, was written by the Countess d'Aulnoy in the late 17th century.

It's generally agreed that the Countess coined the term "contes de fées", or "fairy tales".


Also, some Tolkien thoughts on dragons:

"I never imagined that the dragon was of the same order as the horse. And that was not solely because I saw horses daily, but never even the footprint of a worm. The dragon had the trade-mark of Fairie written upon him."
-On Fairy Stories

"A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men's imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold."
-Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics

". . . dragons, real dragons, essential both to the machinery and the ideas of a poem or tale, are actually rare."
-ibid.

******************************************

I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Plurmo
Rohan

Jul 14 2015, 8:50pm

Post #11 of 11 (3073 views)
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If I'm allowed to offer a line of though [In reply to] Can't Post

that probably has nothing to do with the truth about the matter, I would consider the possibility of the Green Dragon being a reference to the regiment called "The Buffs," whom, I would suppose in my fantasy, could have been good guys to have a drink with when Tolkien was at Folkestone, or somewhere else. It would require someone with solid knowledge about Tolkien and the Great War to give substance to that idea (or more probably dismiss it altogether,) but I can be satisfied with that, at least after a drink or two.Smile

 
 

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