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sador
Half-elven
Jul 5 2015, 11:38am
Post #26 of 32
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I suppose by now you've given up on me
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But here I am.
Galadriel says “Maybe the paths that you each shall tread are already laid before your feet, though you do not see them.” (What does this mean?)
This reads like fatalism, doesn't it? But indeed it turns out that nobody can forsee the paths that they will tread, or even would have chosen them had he been able to. But they turned out well in the end - so this might be simply a statement of faith.
But of course, there is also the immediate meaning - a sound advice, not to fret overmuch about that which is beyong your control.
If we got access to Frodo’s thinking at this point, what IS he thinking, do you suppose?
I think he is still reeling from the scene at the mirror - in which he saw the Eye, was confronted with the enormous consequences his success will have in destroying Elvendom, betrayed the Quest (he was the only one upon which an oath was laid, which was not to give the Ring to anyone out of the Company), Galadriel was revealed to him, and she barely passed the most difficult test anyone could.
I doubt he is really able to think straight.
For example, does he already know in his heart that he & Sam must split from the others?
No.
I think he has barely digested the fact that indeed he and the Ring are leaving Lorien on the way South.
What has changed - for example, has Frodo become more perceptive during the Lorien stay?
Yes, as Galadriel said.
Or has Boromir changed - e.g. was it something to do with the ‘temptation’ Galadriel dangled in front of him during the Fellowship’s psychic grilling?
For sure.
But I've written on this in the next chapter's discussion.
That would be an irony, would it not?
No. It is the grim logic of the story.
Or, is Boromir just becoming easier to read (e.g. because he is becoming less able to conceal his thoughts)?
Is he?
The fact that Tolkien mentions this out of what was probably a morass of conversations indicates that it is important, but for thise present only with the benefit of hindsight combined with an acute memory, this would have been noticed.
For instance, Aragorn seems to have no inkling about Boromir's secret thoughts. Has he become more dense?
Why this elvish reaction?
They seem offended.
Why might it be odd, or inappropriate, or nonsensical to ask whether the cloaks are magic?
Because the word 'magic' seems to be politically incorrect.
Oh, and are they “magic” in any sense?
Tolkien later suggests they were, saying they were instrumental in deceivng the eyes of the orcs.
And Eomer's eored miss Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli sitting just next to them.
What might the boats be like - coracles? canoes?
Darkstone answered this already.
Do you think this change is in Frodo, in Galadriel, or both? What does it mean?
Galagriel, for sure; she has renounced her ambition, and with it her power.
What do you think Celeborn means?
Just what he says. Fangorn is very dangerous. Just think of the Old Forest, and of Huorns.
Ought he to say this, or is he suddenly being overcome by what the author wants him to say to make us readers dread Fangorn a bit?
That's a nice suggestion, but I still think he is right.
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squire
Half-elven
Jul 5 2015, 1:19pm
Post #28 of 32
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"I doubt [Frodo] is really able to think straight."
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You make some good points about what might be passing through Frodo's confused mind, after undergoing a mystical ordeal that speaks to the very heart of the story. Darkstone, too, although more literally, transcribes Frodo's thoughts as being a mishmosh of sillery, denial, and parapraxis (Freudian slips): i.e., not thinking straight.
What your answers make me wonder, not for the first time, is what Tolkien thought Frodo was thinking? The criticism that Tolkien does not offer us his characters' thoughts can be refuted with plenty of examples, but those examples do highlight the point of the criticism, which is that Tolkien by his nature writes an exterior story not an interior one. His glimpses into interiors are always done to advance the plot rather than to really explore how our mental processes constitute the true reality of a story. I think that is what more modernistic authors and critics of his time (and ours) believed or preferred in the fiction they liked. But Tolkien didn't care to write like that, and may not even have believed in it due to his immersion in the more unconscious tales of earlier times.
So perhaps the answer to "what is Frodo thinking at this point?" is: Nothing. We've all been reading too much modern literature, and have been trained to ask that question, but like all the characters in this story, Frodo doesn't think, except at those times when Tolkien tells us he has been thinking. And even at those times, 'thinking' is just a term applied to 'talking to oneself' in a rational dialogue or narrative format.
squire online:
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jul 5 2015, 3:41pm
Post #29 of 32
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The criticism that Tolkien does not offer us his characters' thoughts...
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That's an interesting criticism - I think my answer to it would be that Tolkien does not need to offer us much more of his characters' thoughts than he actually does. Making events subordinate to a certain character's psychology seems to me to be but one authorial choice: one of the many decisions about narration and depiction of character that a storyteller has to resolve to tell his or her tale. Clearly Tolkien manages to build very real-seeming characters anyway : we often have her discussions that are about inferring why a character might do (or not do) this or that, and it's often possible to come to satisfactory readings.
I think you're right - Frodo is thinking nothing that we readers need to be informed about. It seems likely that his mind is a whirl in the way that folks upthread have so ably suggested, for the reasons they've given.
That in itself is relevant to the plot, I now think. The Fellowship ought to be planning beyond their trip downriver, but Frodo can give no leadership, and nor can Aragorn. This allows things to brew up as they do in the final 2 chapters, towards the Breaking of the Fellowship.
What's also clear from that final chapter is that Frodo doesn't have the authority among his colleagues to demand the solution that eventually happens (that he and Sam go to Mordor, while the rest of them do what they can to confront Sauron as a distraction). Speculatively, the only time Frodo could insist on this with a reasonable chance of getting his way would be to say so NOW, in Lorien, in front of Galadriel & Celeborn, and have them, as famously wise people and Gandalf surrogates, uphold his judgement.
But he can't or won't, and so the tension begins to build and the Fellowship will have to separate because of an unplanned crisis.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets"  : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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sador
Half-elven
Jul 6 2015, 3:36pm
Post #30 of 32
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Why would Arwen make these arrangements, rather than give Aragorn the stone herself?
He will pass through Lorien when he takes up his kingship. Before that, she will not give him any such gift - as Elrond said.
Did you like this bit?
I think it is nice.
Are we really supposed to believe that Galadriel couldn’t think of a present (not even socks?)
Well, she might have had another belt, just in case.
But I agree with whoever it was who wrote that offering him some artifact might be seen as insulting.
Is there some element of her having predicted Gimli’s request and set this up?
I don't think so (whatever Tolkien later wrote about Feanor and her).
But she does confer upon him a special favour - to name his own desire (which she also grants Aragorn, by the way). And he rises to the occasion.
Thoughts about the meaning(s) of these gifts, if there is a meaning, please!
Just one thing to add to others:
The gifts to Aragorn, Frodo and Sam are significant. If the Elessar indeed (as written in Unfinished Tales) was a source of her power, then she grants them her power of healing and preserving (Aragorn), the light, and effectively the Mirror (Frodo), and her power over trees, plants and gardens (Sam).
In effect, she has passed the test and remounced her power; she is passing it on to the mortals, which shall inherit Middle-earth - and goes back as a supplicant, to humble herself before the Valar.
What does Legolas mean here - that Gimli’s memories will be untroubled by guilt (c.f. had he decided to stay in Lorien & let the rest of them go on without his help)? Or more/different to that?
Yes, but I guess he also realises that Lorien is going to fade.
He does not know of Galadriel's test - but he seems to sense that he has indeed seen it in its winter, and that there will be no spring.
I’m sure I’ve missed out on a lot of good things to discuss - what further ‘Tolkien Points’ should I have raised?
Well, many of the points I have raised in next chapter's discussion actually began in this one. So I'm grateful that you didn't, in a way.
I'll try tomorrow to answer your post regarding Galadriel's parting song.
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sador
Half-elven
Jul 8 2015, 3:26pm
Post #32 of 32
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I've posted yestreday a link to Tolkien's reciting of the Lament of Galadriel, in my response to Bracegirdle - without remembring that you did it here!
Well, at least the Broceliande version is new.
Are we to take at face value that this song is one of the events of the parting, or is it more like an aria or soliloquy?
A soliloquy for sure.
This is clearly a song of renounciation, and of regret. Galadriel has finally given up the dream of a magical empire, and knows that she cannot even hold on to Lorien.
The last lines are very poignant; she understands the last stage of the long defeat has come; that she has fought not against Sauron, but against Time - in effect, even if she was late in realising it, against Eru Himself. She had a chance to try and defeat both (Sauron and Time), wavered on the brink, but manged to refrain using the Ring, and to remain Galadriel. But as Galadriel she must fade now, and is not certain even that she will be able to return across the Sea.
Why might Galadriel sing this particular song?
In a way, this is a song of hope. She is turning back her mind to Valinor, and speaks of it with longing and regret.
But this might have been the first instance in a long time, in which she does so - and there is a glimmer of hope in it, following the despair of the previous song.
Did anyone here ever try to learn Elvish that way? What happened?
Neither in that way nor (I admit) any other way. If you want to, you can try this for help.
But I want to point out that it is not just in Elvish - it is Quenya! The very language which Thingol has banned, and there is no reason to expect Celeborn liked better.
When do you think was the last time she used it? Did she ever do so since Celebrimbor died?
So this is another sign of her repentence, and turning her mind towards Elvenhome (although one who reads just LotR won't get it).
Do you imagine there is literally a “thou” being addressed here? Is Galadriel singing to Frodo maybe (or to herself?)
If I am correct, and it is indeed a song of return to Varda, and of hope of being accepted there - such as I doubt anybody but Gildor has really kept in Middle-earth - then yes, she is addressing herself, and perhaps Frodo and others too. One might perhaps yet find Valimar, despite it being "lost".
Thank you for this discussion, and my apologies for the late responses!
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Not at all - the party never stops here! //
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