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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
I lost it
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jul 4 2015, 10:56pm

Post #1 of 50 (2632 views)
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I lost it Can't Post

Bilbo says to Gandalf regarding his ring at the end of Bo5a. Somehow, I can't see Gandalf buying that one. A Ring of power which a Hobbit supposedly loses. I don't think so!


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 4 2015, 11:01pm

Post #2 of 50 (2547 views)
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I think the film makes clear that Gandalf doesn't buy it. [In reply to] Can't Post

Any more than he buy's Bilbo's equivalent lies in the text. His expression is quite clear, I think.


MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien

Jul 5 2015, 7:31pm

Post #3 of 50 (2214 views)
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Gandalf never bought it [In reply to] Can't Post

And given his encounters with Sauron in these films, it's kind of weird that he never seemed to suspect that Bilbo's Ring was the One until 60 years later.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 5 2015, 7:35pm

Post #4 of 50 (2211 views)
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Blame Saruman [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And given his encounters with Sauron in these films, it's kind of weird that he never seemed to suspect that Bilbo's Ring was the One until 60 years later.


Gandalf was taken in by Saruman's assurances that the One Ring was swept into the sea by the Anduin River years earlier.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 5 2015, 8:28pm

Post #5 of 50 (2180 views)
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Blame Tolkien on this one, I think. [In reply to] Can't Post

It is one of the less credibly plotted aspects of the story.

The films, in being less specific on the subject, are actually in a rather better place than the books (where Tolkien letting us know that Gandalf knew the ring was one of just 20 Rings of Power "from the first" leaves us rather beyond the bounds of comfortable belief).


Guert
Rivendell


Jul 6 2015, 12:40pm

Post #6 of 50 (2008 views)
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I think... [In reply to] Can't Post

He knew it was a ring of power, but he cannot take it himself either. But he had the knowledge that at least one of those rings was sleeping quietly in a chest somehwere in the shire...

That's the way I see it personally.


tgshaw
The Shire

Jul 6 2015, 12:49pm

Post #7 of 50 (2004 views)
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Other rings of power [In reply to] Can't Post

But at first, Gandalf didn't know that Bilbo's ring was one of the 20:


"In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles -- yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals.."


It was after Bilbo's difficulty in letting go of his ring that Gandalf became concerned that it was one of the Great Rings. (Of course, that means it still took him 17 years to figure out that it was the Master Ring, but at least not 77.)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 6 2015, 1:11pm

Post #8 of 50 (1999 views)
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Unfortunately, and oddly, Tolkien specifies that he did know [In reply to] Can't Post

"'When did I first begin to guess?' he mused, searching back in memory. 'Let me see – it was in the year that the White Council drove the dark power from Mirkwood, just before the Battle of Five Armies, that Bilbo found his ring. A shadow fell on my heart then, though I did not know yet what I feared. I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was – that at least was clear from the first. Then I heard Bilbo's strange story of how he had "won" it, and I could not believe it."

In case we think that "Great Ring" might be a generic term:

"But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous. 'A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings."

It is odd, and possibly a case of not redrafting the "Shadow of the Past" chapter quite thoroughly, but the books do not take the "many lesser rings" plausibility booster (as the films do). Instead, Tolkien chooses to tie Gandalf to the 20 (well 18, really, since he didn't identify the One and he had one on his finger!).


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jul 6 2015, 8:58pm

Post #9 of 50 (1912 views)
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Gandalf only knew that Bilbo had found [In reply to] Can't Post

... something, not some ring.
He understood it was a ring only when Bilbo suddenly became invisible in his 111th birthday

I mean, in the movies, because in the book everybody, including the dwarves, knew that Bilbo had a ring able to get him invisible
(which is a very weak point for Tolkien, he would have to entirely rewrite his story from scratch to adjust it to LOTR)

PJ's team did well in allowing Bilbo to hide his ring from everybody, including the dwarves and Gandalf, except from Smaug, which is exactly the contrary of the Book.

Smaug could know that Bilbo had a ring, without harming the following trilogy because Smaug died soon after and couldn't catch Bilbo.
(It's very difficult to take the ring away from his bearer, unless the bearer loses him, as Frodo did in the Mountains towards Boromir, then later on when Sam could take it from him after Arachnę's attack.)

I love how reluctant Bilbo, Boromir and Sam were when they had to give the ring back.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 6 2015, 9:09pm

Post #10 of 50 (1908 views)
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I don't think that's right. [In reply to] Can't Post

The ring is discussed explicitly at the end of BOFA and by the time of the party in FOTR Gandalf clearly knows of its existence and knows of its history with Gollum.

I'm not sure where we would get the idea that he doesn't know it is a ring in the films?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 6 2015, 9:10pm

Post #11 of 50 (1907 views)
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No, Gandalf knew (or guessed) about a ring. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
He understood it was a ring only when Bilbo suddenly became invisible in his 111th birthday


No, Gandalf made it clear that he knew that Bilbo had found a ring before they parted at the edge of the Shire. And I am also referring to the movie.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 6 2015, 9:10pm)


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jul 6 2015, 9:20pm

Post #12 of 50 (1901 views)
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Gandalf guessed, but he didn't know [In reply to] Can't Post

He would have known if he had seen the Ring, but Bilbo never showed him.

Gandalf could as well have asked Bilbo about a ring even if he wasn't sure, asking the unknown to learn the known.
In fact, Bilbo said to Gandalf he had a ring ONLY when he said he had LOST it.

So Bilbo never said (in the movie), that he was having a ring.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 6 2015, 9:25pm

Post #13 of 50 (1895 views)
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Okay [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Gandalf could as well have asked Bilbo about a ring even if he wasn't sure, asking the unknown to learn the known.
In fact, Bilbo said to Gandalf he had a ring ONLY when he said he had LOST it.


That still contradicts what you previously posted. Gandalf knew that Bilbo had a Ring because the hobbit himself admitted it. That is very different than not knowing about it until Bilbo's eleventy-first birthday!

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jul 6 2015, 9:35pm

Post #14 of 50 (1890 views)
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Gandalf knew that Bilbo had had a ring [In reply to] Can't Post

But he didn't know that Bilbo still had one.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 6 2015, 9:37pm

Post #15 of 50 (1886 views)
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Maybe. [In reply to] Can't Post

It seemed obvious to me that Gandalf did not believe Bilbo when he claimed to have lost the ring.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 6 2015, 9:39pm

Post #16 of 50 (1891 views)
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He says that he knew. [In reply to] Can't Post

"Magic rings should not be used lightly, Bilbo.”
"Don't take me for a fool - I know you found one in the Goblin tunnels...and I’ve kept my eye on you ever since.”

I'm not sure, equally, why would shouldn't take Gandalf at his word.

Similarly, where do we get the idea that he believed the ring had been lost?

His expression in BOFA clearly suggests the opposite. He has equally clearly discussed the history of the ring in the intervening years with Bilbo and when Bilbo uses it we do not get dialogue along the lines of "I thought you said the ring had been lost!". Instead, Gandalf chastises him for using it so lightly, but not expressing surprise that he has, or still has, it at all.


(This post was edited by Spriggan on Jul 6 2015, 9:50pm)


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jul 6 2015, 10:14pm

Post #17 of 50 (1880 views)
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I can concede [In reply to] Can't Post

that a magician can have a better knowledge on such subjects than a normal human.


glor
Rohan

Jul 7 2015, 2:35am

Post #18 of 50 (1857 views)
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Exactly. [In reply to] Can't Post

 
It's why Gandalf is the wisest of the Maiar.

You think that an innocent Hobbit may possess the most darkly powerful and coveted object in Middle-Earth, and this little Hobbit has no idea what he has.

You know, you cannot trust yourself with this ring or rather he doesn't trust the Ring with himself, what it will do with his powers.

You do not trust anyone else with this knowledge after all, if you don't trust yourself, who do you trust?

What if you tell someone, you reveal it's location, is that part of the Rings will? What will befall that green and pleasant Shire and the innocent folk that dwell there? etc

the wise, wait although the wait was a blink of an eye to an eternal being,

Gandalf knew Bilbo had the ring but he needed the right moment, and that right moment came when someone came into possession of the ring without coveting it for any reason, power or, gold or just knowing it was special because it made one invisible and get you to lie to a 'wizard'. The Ring finds and needs a bearer, that doesn't want it because someone like that is far less likely to fall under it's spell, someone who was just given it, along with his Uncle's House.

No mascara can survive BOTFA


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jul 7 2015, 6:39am

Post #19 of 50 (1833 views)
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Does the ring allows his bearer [In reply to] Can't Post

to summon the other ring bearers ?

Bilbo could have done that, if only he knew about that power.
But he as well as Smeagol didn't know the Ring was a weapon, so they stayed somewhat innocent.
(except Smeagol gone Gollum and using the Ring to kill and eat goblins)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 7 2015, 10:22am

Post #20 of 50 (1817 views)
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When you say "Gandalf knew Bilbo had the ring" [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you mean Gandalf knew it was the One Ring? If so, then I'm not sure that's right, in either medium.


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jul 7 2015, 3:30pm

Post #21 of 50 (1780 views)
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By the way, [In reply to] Can't Post

if Gandalf 'knew' that Bilbo had a ring, I don't see why he wouldn't go further and try to understand which kind of ring it was, during the 60 years yet to come.
After all, he just has to speak a little louder to have anybody near him getting to his views.

Something like : 'Are you taking me for a fool ? I know you have a Ring. Just show me.'

Didn't he do so in Bag End several years after ?

So we can almost be sure that Gandalf didn't know it was the Ring.
He wouldn't have waited for Sauron's strenghening to try and destroy it in Mount Doom...
Meantime, Sauron's armies killed hundreds of men, destroyed Osgiliath etc.

That's the main reason why I think we can admit that Gandalf could believe Bilbo saying he had lost his device.
Just because Gandalf couldn't imagine that the mind of the Hobbit had already begun to be corrupted.


(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Jul 7 2015, 3:31pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 7 2015, 5:31pm

Post #22 of 50 (1758 views)
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There isn't a particularly good reason given. [In reply to] Can't Post

At least in the films we have the notion that Gandalf thought this was simply a lesser ring, one of many, and so there was nothing to investigate really (seeing the ring, incidentally, would not have raised any suspicion).

In the books, where Gandalf knows it to be a Ring of Power, the situation is much exacerbated and looks more like a plot slip than something with a particularly credible explanation.

I don't think the idea that Gandalf believed that Bilbo had lost the ring ties up with either BOFA or FOTR. I think the "lesser ring" narrative is what is actually presented by the films.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jul 7 2015, 7:25pm

Post #23 of 50 (1733 views)
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The driver is Bilbo's behaviour [In reply to] Can't Post

You make a very important distinction at the end of the journey to Bag End Gandalf acknowledges that he knows Bllbo has a magical ring that helped him get out of scrapes. left like that at the end of an exhausting episode in the history of middle earth it might work that Gandalf would let the matter go for 60 years.

However much more crucial and it is the matter that always drives Gandalfs enquiry is not the acquisition of a ring but Bilbo's behaviour toward and as result of it.

In the book the Hobbit epilogue completes without him being aware of its existence. Over a period of 52 years he becomes aware of it he listens to Bilbos initial story probably reads Bilbos book but over those 52 years with Bilbo not ageing something in his subconscious mind niggles away at him and eventually Bilbo tells him and Frodo the truth of its acquisition. He knows its a great ring but never connects it with the group of twenty certainly not the one. But when Bilbo behaves uncharacteristically after the party he then begins as he always does acting at a pinch. In the modern world that lack of enquiry may look odd but this a world of enigmas and thousands of years of pre history there are no databases or intel no basis books or detective algorithms. There is no database of rings to refer to Gandalf was not around when the rings were forged might it be from the wreck of Ost In Edhil who knows but what Gandalf does know is Bilbo and that drives him to take action.

In the film he is confronted with Bilbo this gentle soul who has not got a dishonest bone in his body his friend lieing to him very deliberately should that have bothered him enough to act immediately or to enquire more closely of the matter? Each of us needs to honestly decide whether its credible.

One thing I have learnt is do not waste mental energy trying to persuade those whom defend the films at every turn that this was an inadvisable late insertion by Fran Walsh which the screenwriters were anxious to put in place. Kudoes for the CG on Gandalf its brilliant to create that grimace out of the original physical acting.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jul 7 2015, 7:30pm)


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jul 7 2015, 7:40pm

Post #24 of 50 (1726 views)
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It's not about defending the movie at every turn [In reply to] Can't Post

It's more about trying to understand why the scenes were shot the way they were in the first place, for each of them has been written before, discussed by the Three (PJ, PB FW), with the actor etc.

Each of them had an advice to give, could detect discrepancies most easily noticeable. It's a collective job.
So in the first place what I find logical is to seek the logic behind the scene from the point of view of the global movie, and only when we get it we can seek for collateral damages.

Beginning with the collateral drives to miss some strong coherences IMO


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 7 2015, 7:41pm

Post #25 of 50 (1726 views)
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The end of the book [In reply to] Can't Post

If we go strictly by the epilogue The Hobbit, without taking later writings into consideration, we really don't know that Bilbo hasn't told Gandalf anything about his ring. After all, he eventually told the rest of Thorin's company about it. And Bilbo spent months in the company of Gandalf--all of one winter and the following spring--and there is no doubt that any number of subjects came up in conversation. I would be surprised if the topic of the ring wasn't discussed at some point even if Bilbo refused to go into any detail or be wholly honest about it.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

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