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I lost it
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 7 2015, 7:59pm

Post #26 of 50 (1103 views)
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In addition... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry, I missed the editing window.


In addition, with the hindsight of Gandalf's comments in "A Long-expected Party" in LotR, I think it is clear that Bilbo did tell Gandalf about the ring, but he told him the same story that he gave to the Dwarves. It was only after much badgering that the wizard got to the true account.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jul 7 2015, 8:04pm

Post #27 of 50 (1101 views)
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The Ring is the main plothole between Tolkien's hobbit and trilogy [In reply to] Can't Post

Especially regarding the relationship between Bilbo and Gandalf in their journey home.

To me, if the Ring had a will of his own like in LOTR, he would surely prefer to corrupt Gandalf than staying in an insignificant hobbit hands.
So arriving at Bag End with Bilbo after months spent together, there is no doubt Gandalf would have taken the Ring from Bilbo.

the movie scenarists did the best they could chosing bilbo not saying anything about his finding, or saying that he had lost it.
It was the only way to drive the story over the 60 years gap.

Bilbo's will to keep the Ring His ('Mine') was the strongest feature of the Hobbit trilogy, and it works quite well given the fact that this Bilbo's will wasn't really induced by the book.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 7 2015, 8:44pm

Post #28 of 50 (1095 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

We were just discussing the books rather than the films, but it is probably just as well to bring things back on-topic. The main effects the Ring seemed to have on BIlbo were possessiveness and a desire to keep it secret. I don't know that it could easily alter those effects. I do think that, in Tolkien's legendarium, Bilbo eventually told Gandalf of the Ring before they returned to Hobbit lands, but possibly only because there was no point in concealing anything from the wizard that he couldn't discover from the former members of Thorin's company.


I think that after being hidden away for so long the Ring might have been hesitant to bring itself to Gandalf's attention--if it really had that level of self-awareness.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jul 7 2015, 10:06pm

Post #29 of 50 (1085 views)
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Correct O S [In reply to] Can't Post

But for me and I am not critical of you but I notice when people are trying to explain flaws in the films they conjure up the most elaborate over thinking and interpretations of the hard facts.

1) The hard fact in the film is Bilbo lied to Gandalf.

2) The hard fact in the book is nothing is said between Gandalf and Bilbo about the ring in the concluding chapters it is not raised at Rivendell. To then extemporise and theorise is fun.

I repeat some thing I have said before. These books and films are there to communicate clearly defined and well thoughtout ideas that in the case of the films targets a huge multi lingual audience, not a handful of people who take the time to work out what was said by the characters on their day off from the narrative. If its important you say it you do not leave it to guess work unless you are deliberately trying to generate drama through ambiguity and those are not such cases.

I must say and I say it you because you are in my view quite reasonable, eons ago I studied "A" level English Literature and I recall much discussion about the texts and their contextual meaning and what the author was trying to say but no discussion about what the characters did away from the narrative. You assume the narrative tells the entire story that the author intended.

But here is the simple point I have noticed new people are starting to raise points we have discussed before because they "throw" them.

The warg hunt dialogue "who did you tell" well actually nobody you told me but yes they have discovered us but do not be surprised.

The ring lie which Gandalf ignores.

The dragon sickness verses the dragon like sickness verses the sickness in the family.

Armies coming from the North well actually the West.

Suns setting in the East.

How many days from Lake town to Erebor.

You have raised a new one, and a very good one too which has contradictory dialogue implications what was Thranduil doing on that ridge :-

1) Come for a fight and the jewels which are never properly explained.

2) Come to provide aid -where is the aid.

3) Come to give military help wow that was quick work.

Now if a dwarf rides on an Eagle or a black arrow is shouldered by a child and British Airways or the Archer Institute of the UK cries unreal I am unmoved this is fantasy myth making including chance happenings but that is quite different from inconsistency, contradictions and incoherent story telling come in Dwalin where are you I am in the EE well lets hope so along with staffs, blades and arkenstones all apparently optional material.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jul 7 2015, 10:11pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 7 2015, 10:27pm

Post #30 of 50 (1080 views)
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That's not correct, I don't think [In reply to] Can't Post

When you say that Gandalf doesn't connect the ring to the 20, the quotes I mention above seem fairly clearly to the contrary.

Similarly Gandalf describes knowing of the ring "from the first" and "whe he first heard it" so, whilst we can't be precise about his discovery point during the 60 years, we can't push it vey far at all, it would seem.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jul 8 2015, 12:20am

Post #31 of 50 (1067 views)
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There are a couple other things.. [In reply to] Can't Post

to Consider.

1. If Gandalf knows Bilbo has a ring that can make him
invisible, @ the End of this Movie.

..Well, ARE there many lesser rings somewhere that make people INVISIBLE
scattered around MiddleEARTH?

Bomby always believed there are only 20 Magic or Power Rings?
or Gandalf & the Rest of the White Council
would have heard about them.

2. Also, it is ONLY when Gandalf goes deep, into the Libraries of
Gondor does he get the "ACCOUNT of Isildur".
Allowing him to understand its.. Deception..

Plain, unadorned..simple gold Band, but?
"Only in Fire, does it reveal it's Inscription"

3. You would think that Saruman would have also gone to Gondor
at some time, since he was so interested in Ring Lore?

But rather than get all frustrated...or confused?.?.?
Bom jus' tries to go with the
Flow..
Tolkien's Plot Holes & All.

Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"

(This post was edited by Bombadil on Jul 8 2015, 12:24am)


glor
Rohan

Jul 8 2015, 12:27am

Post #32 of 50 (1066 views)
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What is credible and in character for Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
n the film he is confronted with Bilbo this gentle soul who has not got a dishonest bone in his body his friend lieing to him very deliberately should that have bothered him enough to act immediately or to enquire more closely of the matter? Each of us needs to honestly decide whether its credible

In both book and film Gandalf isn't a doer, he is not a Maia of action unless completely necessary,he is a manipulator and an observer of events and peoples. When people lie because they are hiding something, challenging them usually gets you a denial and, enquiry gets you no where in a situation where the person in question is lying to keep it secret. I work with vulnerable teens/young adults in a residential setting and I get lied to on a weekly basis and, the best way to catch a liar and to discover their secret is not to challenge them or make enquires but to watch and wait as liars (nearly)always end up revealing themselves. The worse thing you can do is challenge them or try and investigate because the liar becomes more secretive, just lull them into a sense of security and wait.

Wisdom is in the waiting, it is a game of patience, to me Gandalf's inaction is not mental acrobatics in an attempt to defend the films but simply the rational move of someone with experience and wisdom. Plus within the context of Middle-Earth do you not think that even the merest hint, the slightest suggestion that there was a magical ring in the possession of a Hobbit wouldn't have consequences that drew out those who would investigate for themselves.


No mascara can survive BOTFA


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 8 2015, 10:54am

Post #33 of 50 (1044 views)
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This is also exactly what happens in the book. [In reply to] Can't Post

"Gandalf, however, disbelieved Bilbo's first story, as soon as he heard it, and he continued to be very curious about the ring. Eventually he got the true tale out of Bilbo after much questioning, which for a while strained their friendship; but the wizard seemed to think the truth important. Though he did not say so to Bilbo, he also thought it important, and disturbing, to find that the good hobbit had not told the truth from the first: quite contrary to his habit ....That also Gandalf thought strange and suspicious; but he did not discover the truth in this point for many more years, as will be seen in this book."

Bilbo lies to Gandalf, Gandalf disbelieves him and finds it suspicious but does not deduce the truth until the events of FOTR. This is the case in both media.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jul 8 2015, 12:45pm

Post #34 of 50 (1034 views)
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Bomby's questions. [In reply to] Can't Post

1. There are only the twenty Rings of Power; however there are an uncounted number of lesser magical rings that were made, many of them as practice.


2. Um, you don't really ask a question here.


3. Perhaps Saruman did research the story of Isildur and the Ring in Gondor. If he did then he wasn't going to tell anyone about it. At least not once he had turned to evil.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jul 9 2015, 6:17am

Post #35 of 50 (1006 views)
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"Great Ring, as plainly it was" [In reply to] Can't Post

If you take the two quotes together I can see exactly how you might consider that Gandalf knew from the off that Bilbo's ring was one of the twenty. That is an entirely fair point to make.

Given the context of Gandalf beginning by explaining "Many Elvin Rings were made" and then Gandalfs description to Frodo of the growing sense of unease over a 52 year period, Sarumans views of the One the sense I get from those passages is that Gandalf did not think it was a "Great Ring" one of the Rings Of Power, they were perilous" from the first.

I do not think Tolkien was trying to conjure up the notion that Gandalf knew immediately that there was an issue instead over 52 years Gandalf discovers the truth. I am 60 years old and conversations I had twenty years ago exchanges that were difficult ten years ago blur and recede. That is how I receive the book tradition a lengthy period of uncertainty. If you interpret the text on the basis that on the very first occasion Gandalf heard about the ring that he knew unequivocally that Bilbo had a ring of power that was perilous one of the twenty then Gandalfs behaviour looks wrong. Why wait until after the party to make his enquiries over 17 years.

As regards the films, which are a much more immediate and dramatic form of communication as a medium, what Gandalf tells the audience outright, in the context that in the films the ring has been laid bare as connected to Sauron, is :-

1) I know you have a magic ring.

2) I know you have told me a lie.

So given his remarks at the White Council about Thrains ring, given he definitely knows Bilbo has a magic ring and given he has immediately lied to him and knowing him as well as he does would he then wait indefinitely to consider the matter. This isn't an evolving niggling issue as in the books, he is dramatically confronted with it and for me his inertia is not credible.

Finally lets assume your right that Tolkien made a mistake and should have altered the text to "I knew it was a a magic ring… " rather than a great ring why perpetuate a mistake. After all they were quite happy to make a few other changes to the story why not correct/clarify this one.

Remember this was a a very late deliberate point they wanted to make that Gandalf knew Bilbo had a magic ring and that he would lie to Gandalf .... and that Gandalf would simply ignore the issue and only really address it in the films, which are meant to be watched as a sequence, 60 years later.

So I take your point about the Tolkien text which has not worried myself since 1966 but as soon as PJ highlighted this as a late "improvement" which Philippa approves of it jarred with me.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jul 9 2015, 6:23am)


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jul 9 2015, 6:29am

Post #36 of 50 (1001 views)
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I agree and I like your description of Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

Your point chimes well with me. It is precisely the point I was making earlier he starts with considering the Hobbit's behaviour and his needs and reactions to being a bearer of a ring rather than the ring itself.

To continue the point in the films having just come out of a rough and tumble with Sauron, knows that Bilbo has a ring and has uncharacteristically been lied to I would not expect him to confront Bilbo but to go away deeply troubled and start making some enquiries not drop the matter.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jul 9 2015, 6:30am)


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jul 9 2015, 6:35am

Post #37 of 50 (998 views)
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Just to be polite [In reply to] Can't Post

You are of course correct, though Bilbo wrote a story which was inaccurate for all those whom would read it rather than a one on one lie for the benefit of misleading Gandalf, but the really significant difference you are ignoring is that what you describe happens over a number of years and at least 8 years after the events. In the films it happens within the events of the story in real time. This is not an emerging theme over time as in the books it is immediate and that transforms its significance and highlights Gandalfs inaction.

Maybe just maybe you might agree with that rather than not answer my point directly and shift the response to the left or right.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jul 9 2015, 6:42am)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 9 2015, 6:53am

Post #38 of 50 (993 views)
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I think it's very tricky to imagine how else we can read it. [In reply to] Can't Post

The quotes specifically say that Gandalf notes it was plain that it was a great ring, a ring of power from the first. I can't see much wriggle room there (and, as I say, suspected this is a redrafting issue which leaves us with a mistake). Gandalf's behaviour does indeed look wrong, but that's what the book says.

Similarly though, the issue of being lied to in the book gives us the same timing. In the text Gandalf knew Bilbo had a ring and was lied to, and knew he was lied to at the period of the events of TH, not many years later.

His waxing and waning levels of suspicion over the period are described, but the three things above happen in the same time period in the text (we know this from the Tale of Years, incidentally).

So I don't think the films do perpetuate the idea that Gandalf knew it was a great ring. Instead they suggest only the "many lesser rings" line, which offers us greater plausibility.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 9 2015, 7:02am

Post #39 of 50 (990 views)
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No that's not correct either. [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo does tell Gandalf a one on one lie in the book, and this certainly doesn't happen at least 8 years later (where do we get that figure from?).

In fact, Tolkien tells us many times over that this happens "from the first" "at once" that Gandalf first began to suspect the ring in the year of TH etc. Furthermore it cannot be later than 2944 as Gandalf is already taking action based on his knowledge of the ring prior to this year.

I hope that is a direct answer (?!) but you are definitely mistaken!


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jul 9 2015, 7:13am

Post #40 of 50 (989 views)
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Your help on the Tale of Years [In reply to] Can't Post

In my copy of the tale of years Gandalf and Balin visit Bag End in 2949. The next entry concerning Bilbo (and by implication Gandalf) is 3001 and Bilbos feast. I have no intermediate entry referring to visits by Gandalf or Bilbo offering an unsolicited lie to him.

Indeed the passage you quote from the prologue and the shadows of the past none of them in my copy refer to Bilbo telling a unsolicited lie to Gandalf they refer to Bilbo's memoirs being challenged by Gandalf. This seems altogether different to me that over a lengthy period of time Gandalf makes enquires about the what really happened rather than an unsolicited lie.

You seem very certain that the texts indicate that Gandalf discovered the inaccuracies over BIlbo's memoirs at the time of the TH I can find no indications in my copies of the books that any time frames are alluded to again I welcome some pointers.

In the movie you correctly state that it is described a magic ring. However that for me is not the driver toward immediate action it is the uncharacteristic bare faced unsolicited lie that would put Gandalf on notice.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jul 9 2015, 7:21am

Post #41 of 50 (984 views)
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Bare Faced Lie Where does this appear in the Hobbit Book [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you provide me with the chapter and point in chapter where Bilbo offers a one on one lie on the loss of the ring in the hobbit book my copy does not have one thanks. In my copy Gandalf is unaware of the ring.

The epilogue in the Hobbit Book occurs eight years after the events of the BOFA and in my copy no mention is made of the ring. So Gandalf does not find out about the ring until at least 8 years have passed from the date of the BOFA on a subsequent visit to the shire. In my copy of the tale of years no dates are given for Gandalfs visits to the shire. I have the sixth impression of the 2nd edition.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jul 9 2015, 7:24am

Post #42 of 50 (982 views)
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Gandalf's Knowledge of The Ring [In reply to] Can't Post

Could you point me to the text in the LOTR Book where Gandalf indicates that he know about the ring at the time of the events of the Hobbit. My copy says "a shadow fell on my heart then, though did not know yet what I feared" and does not refer to the ring, He knew retrospectively that it was in the year of the council that Bilbo found the ring but there is no statement in my copy he was made aware at that time he simply had an emotional premonition that something had happened.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jul 9 2015, 7:35am)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 9 2015, 7:35am

Post #43 of 50 (981 views)
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Not in the TH - in LOTR. [In reply to] Can't Post

You will find consistent references to the timing being "from the first" and "at once" etc. when the matter is discussed in the introduction, the shadow of the past chapter and the council of Elrond.

Even more specifically, in the Council of Elrond Gandalf tells us of one of his first investigations of the ring "From the first my heart misgave me, against all reason that I knew,' said Gandalf, `and I desired to know how this thing came to Gollum, and how long he had possessed it. So I set a watch for him, guessing that he would ere long come forth from his darkness to seek for his treasure. He came, but he escaped and was not found. And then alas! I let the matter rest, watching and waiting only, as we have too often done".

Gandalf set his watch to find out about the ring and Gollum before Gollum left the mountains in 2944. Gandalf cannot be investigating something he does not yet know about. In particular if he knows about Gollum then he has already heard the lie and recognised it as such.

Tolkien is extremely consistent with his use of "from the first" so I'm not sure how we get the idea that he repeatedly says that but secretly means to convey "many years later" ( but the above is even less open to odd interpretation).


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 9 2015, 7:53am

Post #44 of 50 (975 views)
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A few brief replies rolled together. [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Yes Gandalf does say "a shadow fell on my heart" in that year but he says this in direct response to the question "when did you know about the ring?" and follows it immediately with "I often wondered how Gollum came by a great ring". I don't think Tolkien can put the word "ring" in every sentence. But this is just one of the "from the first" references.
2. I don't think we know that Tolkien noted every visit of Gandalf to the Shire or notes that the Balin visit was not supplemented by a solo visit in the meantime. However, there is no need for additional visits before 2944. Instead we have the most obvious and intuitive response, that most would have in the first place, I suspect, that the matter was discussed following the events at Erebor.
3. The reference that Gandalf was lied to verbally (he "heard" the story - not read it) is in the introduction and, I think, the Council of Elrond too.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jul 9 2015, 8:09am

Post #45 of 50 (972 views)
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Gollum's Journeys [In reply to] Can't Post

My copy of the tale of years refers to Gollum leaving the mountains 3 years after the BOFA and 5 years before Gandalf and Balins visits to the shire.

Gandalf indeed set a watch for him but no time reference is provided in my copy of the tale of years or at the council. Gandalf was looking back from the council over a period of at least 69 years and all we know for certain is that he sponsored Aragorn to find Gollum in 3001. He certainly set a watch for him at some time between 2944 and 3001 but unless you can lead me to textual confirmation we can not be certain of when. He would have known retrospectively that he escaped that watch but it may have been set far to late after the event.

It would have been part of the long delayed consideration of the ring which from the first he knew about it he had misgivings. But unless your copy yields otherwise the precise date when he learned about the ring and the precise date he challenged Bilbo on his memoirs and the precise date on which he set a watch on the Eastern Exits from the Misty Mountains is not given and frankly none of that is significant because at the Council Of Elrond Gandalf one agains portrays precisely how I see it "Time passes with many cares" whereas in the films he is confronted in real time during the Hobbit with some thing which was immediate and of concern unlike the books where the concern was instinctive and intuitive from the off even before he was aware of the facts which he pieced together slowly as they emerged and then as always acted at a pinch.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jul 9 2015, 8:12am)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 9 2015, 8:59am

Post #46 of 50 (964 views)
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"Ere" means "before" [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf set his watch before Gollum left the darkness. There can't be any question that Gandalf set his watch after Gollum left. The full quote is in my post above.

This aligns with all other references and is contradicted by not a single quote (unless you are going to remind me of one which states the opposite!)


(This post was edited by Spriggan on Jul 9 2015, 9:04am)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 9 2015, 9:26am

Post #47 of 50 (934 views)
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Sorry I missed your quote - but it says he opposite. [In reply to] Can't Post

"Time passed with many cares, until my doubts were awakened AGAIN to sudden fear."

You are taking this to mean there was much time before his doubts were raised. In fact, this says the opposite -that there was a great deal of time between his first doubts and them arising again for a second time.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jul 9 2015, 9:33am

Post #48 of 50 (932 views)
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I do not agree [In reply to] Can't Post

With any of your suppositions and you have not produced one single textual response to any of my requests because they do not exist.. What i find personally deeply frustrating dealing with you is you never answer my rebuttals but offer another line of thinking instead I consider that disrespectful as well as wastes huge amounts of time.

However out of my politeness I will respond to your most recent diversion. The line from Gandalf "He came, but he escaped and was never found" communicates to me he got away from the mountain and was never found. If he had been apprehended by Gandalf's "watch" the dialogue would be "He came he alluded those seeking him and escaped" Instead he was never found means the watchers never came across him, so he had already escaped the mountain.

Compare that to the dialogue from Legolas who offers his thoughts on his escape from the Elves.

As always when dealing with you because you are unable to agree on anything but always offer a contra view to generate dialogue we lose the central point which is this.

Tolkien re wrote the Gollum chapter to harmonise with the LOTR. If he had felt the later chapters needed more work to bring them in to line with his more developed conception in the LOTR he would have done so. He never did and Gandalf never discovered Bilbo's ring before the epilogue concluded and Bilbo never had the chance to lie.

I have an ailing mother to look after which is far more important than dealing with your bait and twist .

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jul 9 2015, 9:44am

Post #49 of 50 (932 views)
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I'm afraid that I have provided many quotes. [In reply to] Can't Post

But if you are really determined to read "before" to mean "after", "at once" to mean "much later", "from the first" to mean "many years later", "when did I first know" to mean "when didn't I first know" etc. then I can't supply much more!

I set a watch because I knew he would soon emerge simply doesn't mean I set a watch but he had already gone!

I suspect, as seems to be an unfortunate pattern, that the personal comments emerge when you recognise that the case is lost. That's a shame, from my point of view.


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jul 9 2015, 3:07pm

Post #50 of 50 (906 views)
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It's well past time to move on [In reply to] Can't Post

or take this conversation to Private Message - thanks!

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