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**The Breaking of the Fellowship** - 4. ‘It would be mad and cruel to let Frodo go to Mordor. Why can’t we stop him?’

squire
Half-elven


Jun 18 2015, 9:09pm

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**The Breaking of the Fellowship** - 4. ‘It would be mad and cruel to let Frodo go to Mordor. Why can’t we stop him?’ Can't Post

Meanwhile, back at the ranch -- isn't that the phrase? In this case it takes our discussion of this chapter back to the camp at Parth Galen, where the rest of the Company has been waiting for Frodo to make his decision.


The Company waits for Frodo’s decision (Anke Katrin Eissman)

4.1 The Company debates whether to go to Mordor or Minas Tirith
Summary: While Frodo was engaged with Boromir, the rest of the Company sat and waited and talked of their adventures and of this strange borderland of ancient Gondor’s. But soon enough they came back to Frodo’s choice. Aragorn points out that both choices are almost equally fatal. In a vote, it seems the company would choose Minas Tirith, but all agree that Frodo must be accompanied if he chooses the Eastern way.

This passage brings out a minor puzzle that I’ve long wondered about. The Company passes the time while Frodo is away, by reviewing their adventure so far, or asking Aragorn about the ancient history of Gondor. Yet a tremendous amount of ignorance of the southern reaches of Middle-earth is about to be displayed in various expository dialogues in the next four Books of LotR.
A. Must we conclude that is this the only time since Rivendell – months on the road, night after night around a campfire – when the Fellowship has a chat in which lore and memories are shared?

“The great Stair” for portaging past Rauros is mentioned again, yet I don’t believe we ever hear of it again, much less experience it.
B. How many great Stairs does Middle-earth have, and how do they compare to real great Stairs in, say, Medieval Europe?

As he did in the previous chapter, Aragorn reviews Frodo’s choices, east vs. west: “which is the most desperate”?
C. Isn’t it rather shocking in a grammarian (as Tolkien once said about himself in another context) to see a superlative applied to a choice between two things?

Aragorn informs them of the new factor of Gollum’s tracking of the Ring. He says this may mean the Enemy is aware of the Ring’s location, so that an attempt to head east to Mordor is “now more hopeless than ever.”
D. This came up in the previous chapter too, but why are they so certain that Gollum will betray them to the Enemy?

Then as he talks through the alternative of going west to Gondor with Boromir, Aragorn unknowingly parrots Boromir’s reasoning with Frodo in the previous scene: “the Lord Denethor and all his men” in Minas Tirith cannot, by themselves, protect the Ring from Sauron’s conquest and victory.
E. After a dozen brief snippets like this since Book II, what is the impression a (attentive) reader gets of Denethor prior to his appearance in person in Book V?

In the previous chapter Aragorn resolved to himself to guide Frodo to Mordor if that is what Frodo decides; he deferred his destiny in Gondor to the quest. Furthermore everyone seems to agree that a pit stop in Gondor is a comfortable but useless distraction. Yet here and earlier, Aragorn makes the journey to Mordor look hopeless to Frodo and the others.
F. Why is Aragorn so wishy-washy about what plainly has to be done under his leadership?

Legolas and Gimli each weigh in. Legolas says, let’s help Frodo in his decision by calling him back, and then voting; I vote for Minas Tirith.
G. Why does the woodland Elf, Legolas, want to go to Minas Tirith?

Gimli agrees about voting for Minas Tirith, but then immediately backtracks: After coming so far and through so much, I’ll go with Frodo to the end, whether to Minas Tirith or straight East to Mordor.
H. How does this square with Gimli’s apparent scorn, back when leaving Rivendell, for anyone who would abandon the quest when the going got tough?

Legolas then changes course and agrees with Gimli: Right, I meant that too!
I. Why does Legolas not analyze his commitment to Frodo the way Gimli does, so that he comes across as confused if not spineless?



4.2 Aragorn suggests splitting up, with only a few following Frodo to Mordor
Summary: Regarding who should go with Frodo to Mordor, if he decides to go, Aragorn suggests only three companions: Sam, Gimli, and he himself; but he concedes that if Legolas should insist on coming along, he could not bar him. Merry objects that that leaves him and Pippin out, but that to let Frodo go to Mordor would be “mad and cruel”. He and Pippin argue for compelling Frodo to stick with the Company on the road to Gondor. Pippin adds that Frodo is probably afraid of just that, and is paralyzed by his desire to go east alone, against his friends’ wishes.

OK, I’ll just put this on the table, and step back.
J. Gimli?

Merry objects to Aragorn’s proposal to send him and Pippin to Minas Tirith with Boromir, should Frodo go directly east to Mordor:
‘We can’t leave Frodo! Pippin and I always intended to go wherever he went, and we still do. But we did not realize what that would mean. It seemed different so far away, in the Shire or in Rivendell. It would be mad and cruel to let Frodo go to Mordor. Why can’t we stop him?’ (bold by squire)
His “in the Shire or in Rivendell” must refer to these two moments:
[Frodo:]‘You speak of danger, but you do not understand. This is no treasure-hunt, no there-and-back journey. I am flying from deadly peril into deadly peril.’
‘Of course we understand,’ said Merry firmly. ‘That is why we have decided to come. We know the Ring is no laughing-matter; but we are going to do our best to help you against the Enemy. … We are your friends, Frodo. … We are horribly afraid - but we are coming with you; or following you like hounds.’
LotR I.5, at Crickhollow
And
[Pippin:]‘We don’t want to be left behind. We want to go with Frodo.’
‘That is because you do not understand and cannot imagine what lies ahead,’ said Elrond.
‘Neither does Frodo,’ said Gandalf, unexpectedly supporting Pippin. ‘Nor do any of us see clearly. It is true that if these hobbits understood the danger, they would not dare to go. But they would still wish to go, or wish that they dared, and be shamed and unhappy.’
LotR II.3, at Rivendell

K. What has made Merry and Pippin change their tunes?

L. Who in The Lord of the Rings stands by their pledges when things get tough, and who backs off with “it seemed different”?

L. What does Pippin mean by saying in rapid succession, “We must stop him” and “…if we can’t stop him, we shan’t leave him”?


4.3 Sam explains to them that Frodo, when he makes up his mind, will want to go alone
Summary: Sam objects to the discussion’s assumption that Frodo cannot make up his mind between Minas Tirith and Mordor. Gondor means nothing to Frodo, he says, with apologies to Boromir – who, they suddenly realize, is no longer there. Sam tells them that Frodo is simply afraid to go to Mordor and is trying to summon up the necessary courage. When he succeeds, as he must, Sam warns them that Frodo will be dead set on going alone. Aragorn acknowledges Sam’s wisdom, and tells the hobbits they will have no right to “stop” Frodo.

Sam addresses Boromir and “it was then that they discovered that Boromir…was no longer there.”
M. How did Strider, or Legolas, or Gimil not notice, by sight or hearing or sense of footsteps, a large Man of Gondor leaving and walking across the grass to the woods in the near distance?

Sam, it seems, is the go-to guy for figuring Frodo out.
N. Why, whether having traveled with Frodo for several months or having known him all their lives, do none of the company except Sam recognize the nature of Frodo’s paralysis?

Sam says Frodo, like all of them, has “had a bit of schooling, so to speak” or else “he’d just fling the Ring in the River and bolt.”
O. What schooling has Frodo had that keeps him from “pawning the Ring and losing the ticket” at this point, but didn’t keep him from doing the same thing in the Shire?

P. Is Sam right to invoke the name Baggins when characterizing Frodo’s ultimate ability to dive headfirst into mortal peril and pain?

In counseling the others that they have no right to stop Frodo or compel him to go to Gondor, Aragorn adds that they do not have the power, either, for “There are other powers at work far stronger.”
Q. What exactly does he mean?






‘I found him some way up the hill, and I spoke to him.’ (Anke Katrin Eissman)

4.4 Boromir appears, and tells how Frodo vanished after they quarreled
Summary: Boromir wanders out of the woods and rejoins the company without a word. Aragorn interrogates him, and he tells his story: he urged Frodo to go to Gondor and grew angry, whereupon Frodo vanished like “in tales”. Aragorn plainly doubts the whole story has been told, and Sam angrily accuses Boromir of foul play. The younger hobbits point out that Frodo has not returned since he put the Ring on, and as Boromir is vague about his actions since the encounter, it’s clear that Frodo has gone missing for some time now.

Boromir says about his conversation with Frodo, “I grew angry and he left me.” Technically correct. Sam will say about this “Boromir’s not lying, that’s not his way.” Frodo too will say to Faramir, “I told no lies, and of the truth all I could.”
R. Can one ‘lie by omission’ in Middle-earth?

Just before dying (in the next book), Boromir will admit to Aragorn that “I tried to take the Ring from Frodo”.
S. Why doesn’t Boromir confess and ask forgiveness at this point?

Boromir, in explaining his cryptic “yes, and no” as to whether he’s seen Frodo, says that “He vanished. I have never seen such a thing happen before, though I have heard of it in tales.”
T. Do any folk tales of our real world feature a mortal having the power of invisibility (as opposed to belief in invisible beings)?

In this story, a lot of old tales ‘come true’, as it were: the Old Forest is haunted by monster trees, Rohan and the Elves of Lothlorien discover that hobbits exist, the Rohirrim are similarly astonished to meet the Ents, Strider wakes and redeems the Army of the Dead, The Sword That Was Broken returns to the Wars, the hands of the King prove the hands of a healer, etc. In each of these cases, the tales reflect actual ancient history of Middle-earth, not imaginative fancy or psychological transference.
U. What, if any, ancient history or race might have provided the basis for Gondor’s ‘tales” of vanishing at will?

"‘Is that all that you have to say?’ said Aragorn, looking hard and not too kindly at Boromir."
V. How much does Aragorn know, do you think?

W. Why is Sam so upset by the fact that Frodo put the Ring on, while Merry takes it rather casually?


4.5 The hobbits scatter in search of Frodo. Aragorn tries to organize the search
Summary: Panicked and upset, Sam leads the other two hobbits into the woods shouting “Frodo!” while Aragorn vainly tries to organize the search effort. Legolas and Gimli run off too. The company seems to have lost its collective mind. Aragorn, in near despair at the rout, scolds Boromir and orders him to follow and protect Merry and Pippin, whether they find Frodo or not. If Boromir does locate Frodo, Aragorn sets the campsite as a rendez-vous, saying he himself will “return soon.”

The three hobbits run off, frantically calling for Frodo, ignoring Aragorn’s commands to get organized.
X. Why do they panic so completely and so suddenly?

“Legolas and Gimli were running.”
Y. Running?

Aragorn chews out Boromir and assigns him to hobbit nanny-duty. Then he says, “I shall return soon.”
Z. What is going through Aragorn’s mind, and where is he planning to go, if not after the hobbits?

AA. Why does Aragorn allow Boromir to, essentially, go looking for Frodo on his own?



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Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jun 19 2015, 3:55pm

Post #2 of 17 (6383 views)
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A. Must we conclude that is this the only time since Rivendell – months on the road, night after night around a campfire – when the Fellowship has a chat in which lore and memories are shared?

No, we must not conclude that. Surely they had other small chats of days gone by. And don’t call me Shirley! Smile

B. How many great Stairs does Middle-earth have, and how do they compare to real great Stairs in, say, Medieval Europe?

Oh, that’s fun. The Endless Stair of Khazad-dum; the Winding Stair and the Straight Stair from Imlad Morgul; then there’s Orthanc 500’ high. Gandalf makes a big deal of it being many thousand steps to the pinnacle when in actuality it would be but about 650 steps. (I hates it – a little Tolkien blasphemy.) There’s also the winding stair to Dunharrow guarded by a bunch of Pukel-guys. And the Dimrill Stair leading down to Azanulbizar (was this technically a stair or just a pathway?)
Lottsa stairs! Besides your great Stair – more?

No more time. “Time!” Thanks for leading squire



Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 19 2015, 7:01pm

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Where's Frodo? [In reply to] Can't Post

This passage brings out a minor puzzle that I’ve long wondered about. The Company passes the time while Frodo is away, by reviewing their adventure so far, or asking Aragorn about the ancient history of Gondor. Yet a tremendous amount of ignorance of the southern reaches of Middle-earth is about to be displayed in various expository dialogues in the next four Books of LotR.
A. Must we conclude that is this the only time since Rivendell – months on the road, night after night around a campfire – when the Fellowship has a chat in which lore and memories are shared?


It would seem Frodo always inhibited any conversation. “The spectre at the feast” if you will.


“The great Stair” for portaging past Rauros is mentioned again, yet I don’t believe we ever hear of it again, much less experience it.
B. How many great Stairs does Middle-earth have, and how do they compare to real great Stairs in, say, Medieval Europe?


The Stairs of Orthanc, The Endless Stairs of Moria, The Stair Falls, The Dimrill Stair, The Stair of the Hold (though it really wasn’t), The Stairs of Cirith Ungol, and The Stairs in the Tower of Cirith Ungol

There’s the Scala dei Giganti in Venice with two colossi guarding the stairs, the stairs of Montmartre, the Niesen stars in Switzerland which is the longest stairway in the world with 11,674 steps, built in 1910. The Niesen Mountain is part of the Bernese Oberland, which Tolkien visited in 1911.


As he did in the previous chapter, Aragorn reviews Frodo’s choices, east vs. west: “which is the most desperate”?
C. Isn’t it rather shocking in a grammarian (as Tolkien once said about himself in another context) to see a superlative applied to a choice between two things?


Perhaps Aragorn is hinting that Frodo may be considering more than just the two choices?


Aragorn informs them of the new factor of Gollum’s tracking of the Ring. He says this may mean the Enemy is aware of the Ring’s location, so that an attempt to head east to Mordor is “now more hopeless than ever.”
D. This came up in the previous chapter too, but why are they so certain that Gollum will betray them to the Enemy?


If the Fellowship has detected Gollum, then surely the Enemy has, and they’re probably using him as an unknowing tracker.


Then as he talks through the alternative of going west to Gondor with Boromir, Aragorn unknowingly parrots Boromir’s reasoning with Frodo in the previous scene: “the Lord Denethor and all his men” in Minas Tirith cannot, by themselves, protect the Ring from Sauron’s conquest and victory.
E. After a dozen brief snippets like this since Book II, what is the impression a (attentive) reader gets of Denethor prior to his appearance in person in Book V?


He’s a bit of a jerk:

"Less welcome did the Lord Denethor show me then than of old, and grudgingly he permitted me to search among his hoarded scrolls and books."
-The Council of Elrond


In the previous chapter Aragorn resolved to himself to guide Frodo to Mordor if that is what Frodo decides; he deferred his destiny in Gondor to the quest. Furthermore everyone seems to agree that a pit stop in Gondor is a comfortable but useless distraction. Yet here and earlier, Aragorn makes the journey to Mordor look hopeless to Frodo and the others.
F. Why is Aragorn so wishy-washy about what plainly has to be done under his leadership?


Too much a product of the Elvish tutelage of Rivendell High:

'Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.'


Legolas and Gimli each weigh in. Legolas says, let’s help Frodo in his decision by calling him back, and then voting; I vote for Minas Tirith.
G. Why does the woodland Elf, Legolas, want to go to Minas Tirith?


That way lies the sea.


Gimli agrees about voting for Minas Tirith, but then immediately backtracks: After coming so far and through so much, I’ll go with Frodo to the end, whether to Minas Tirith or straight East to Mordor.
H. How does this square with Gimli’s apparent scorn, back when leaving Rivendell, for anyone who would abandon the quest when the going got tough?


No backtrack. He, like Legolas, is just saying how he’ll vote in a “straw poll”. It’s not binding. Obviously if Frodo ignores the vote and decides to go to Mordor they’ll go with him.


Legolas then changes course and agrees with Gimli: Right, I meant that too!
I. Why does Legolas not analyze his commitment to Frodo the way Gimli does, so that he comes across as confused if not spineless?


I don’t see it that way. I see it as Gimli and Legolas giving their honest opinions in an attempt to help Frodo decide, then going with whatever is his decision. I mean, it’s not like after Aragorn votes to go to Mordor he’s still going there anyway if Frodo decides to go to Minas Tirith.


OK, I’ll just put this on the table, and step back.
J. Gimli?


’Who will lead us now in this deadly dark?'
'I will,' said Gandalf, 'and Gimli shall walk with me.’

-A Journey in the Dark


K. What has made Merry and Pippin change their tunes?

I’d think the death of Gandalf might have had something to do with showing them how serious the situation is, not to mention the various close encounters of the orkish kind.


L. Who in The Lord of the Rings stands by their pledges when things get tough,…

The Fellowship.


…and who backs off with “it seemed different”?

Saruman, Radagast, the Blue Wizards, the Dead, Denethor.


L. What does Pippin mean by saying in rapid succession, “We must stop him” and “…if we can’t stop him, we shan’t leave him”?

Same as Merry did:

She should not die, so fair, so desperate. At least she should not die alone, unaided.
-The Battle of the Pelennor Fields


Sam addresses Boromir and “it was then that they discovered that Boromir…was no longer there.”
M. How did Strider, or Legolas, or Gimil not notice, by sight or hearing or sense of footsteps, a large Man of Gondor leaving and walking across the grass to the woods in the near distance?


Obviously Boromir put on some sneakers and tiptoed away. "With cat-like tread" to coin a phrase.


Sam, it seems, is the go-to guy for figuring Frodo out.
N. Why, whether having traveled with Frodo for several months or having known him all their lives, do none of the company except Sam recognize the nature of Frodo’s paralysis?


A servant knows his master better than his master’s closest friends do.


Sam says Frodo, like all of them, has “had a bit of schooling, so to speak” or else “he’d just fling the Ring in the River and bolt.”
O. What schooling has Frodo had that keeps him from “pawning the Ring and losing the ticket” at this point, but didn’t keep him from doing the same thing in the Shire?


”we all have-since we left home”: Bree, Weathertop, the Ford, Rivendell, Moria, the death of Gandalf, Lothlorien, Galadriel, Galadriel’s Mirror: Frodo definitely has the equivalent of a sixth form Middle-earth education.

.
P. Is Sam right to invoke the name Baggins when characterizing Frodo’s ultimate ability to dive headfirst into mortal peril and pain?

Frodo is doing this in Bilbo’s place:

”I am sorry: sorry you have come in for this burden: sorry about everything. Don't adventures ever have an end? I suppose not. Someone else always has to carry on the story.”
-Many Meetings

And:

'Very well, very well, Master Elrond!' said Bilbo suddenly. 'Say no more! It is plain enough what you are pointing at. Bilbo the silly hobbit started this affair, and Bilbo had better finish it, or himself.'
-The Council of Elrond


In counseling the others that they have no right to stop Frodo or compel him to go to Gondor, Aragorn adds that they do not have the power, either, for “There are other powers at work far stronger.”
Q. What exactly does he mean?


’Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it. And that maybe an encouraging thought.'
-The Shadow of the Past

That is, Frodo is “an instrument of Providence” (Letter #246), and Providence is the Bulldozer of Eru, so don’t get in its way.


Boromir says about his conversation with Frodo, “I grew angry and he left me.” Technically correct. Sam will say about this “Boromir’s not lying, that’s not his way.” Frodo too will say to Faramir, “I told no lies, and of the truth all I could.”
R. Can one ‘lie by omission’ in Middle-earth?


By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others.
-Catechism of the Catholic Church (2485)


Just before dying (in the next book), Boromir will admit to Aragorn that “I tried to take the Ring from Frodo”.
S. Why doesn’t Boromir confess and ask forgiveness at this point?


He’s still in shock.


Boromir, in explaining his cryptic “yes, and no” as to whether he’s seen Frodo, says that “He vanished. I have never seen such a thing happen before, though I have heard of it in tales.”
T. Do any folk tales of our real world feature a mortal having the power of invisibility (as opposed to belief in invisible beings)?


The Ring of Gyges, various caps and helms of invisibility (Perseus, Alberich, etc.), cloaks of invisibility (King Arthur, Harry Potter, etc.).


In this story, a lot of old tales ‘come true’, as it were: the Old Forest is haunted by monster trees, Rohan and the Elves of Lothlorien discover that hobbits exist, the Rohirrim are similarly astonished to meet the Ents, Strider wakes and redeems the Army of the Dead, The Sword That Was Broken returns to the Wars, the hands of the King prove the hands of a healer, etc. In each of these cases, the tales reflect actual ancient history of Middle-earth, not imaginative fancy or psychological transference.
U. What, if any, ancient history or race might have provided the basis for Gondor’s ‘tales” of vanishing at will?


Pheriannath


"‘Is that all that you have to say?’ said Aragorn, looking hard and not too kindly at Boromir."
V. How much does Aragorn know, do you think?


Suspicions more than knowledge.


W. Why is Sam so upset by the fact that Frodo put the Ring on, while Merry takes it rather casually?

Sam’s seen what Frodo goes through putting on the ring, Merry has not:

Terror overcame Pippin and Merry, and they threw themselves flat on the ground. Sam shrank to Frodo's side. Frodo was hardly less terrified than his companions; he was quaking as if he was bitter cold, but his terror was swallowed up in a sudden temptation to put on the Ring. The desire to do this laid hold of him, and he could think of nothing else. He did not forget the Barrow, nor the message of Gandalf; but something seemed to be compelling him to disregard all warnings, and he longed to yield. Not with the hope of escape, or of doing anything, either good or bad: he simply felt that he must take the Ring and put it on his finger. He could not speak. He felt Sam looking at him, as if he knew that his master was in some great trouble, but he could not turn towards him. He shut his eyes and struggled for a while; but resistance became unbearable, and at last he slowly drew out the chain, and slipped the Ring on the forefinger of his left hand.
-A Knife in the Dark


The three hobbits run off, frantically calling for Frodo, ignoring Aragorn’s commands to get organized.
X. Why do they panic so completely and so suddenly?


Don’t know if I’d call it panic as much as picking up the fumbled ball of initiative.

‘An hour since he vanished! ' shouted Sam. `We must try and find him at once. Come on!'

And actually, it was Aragorn who ignored his own advice and in his excitement left Sam behind:

’Follow me, and keep your eyes open!' He sped up the path.
Sam did his best, but he could not keep up with Strider the Ranger, and soon fell behind. He had not gone far before Aragorn was out of sight ahead.


Indeed, this is not the first time Aragorn has been careless with hobbits:

For some time Frodo and Sam managed to keep up with the others; but Aragorn was leading them at a great pace, and after a while they lagged behind.
-Lothlorien

I shan't mention Weathertop.


“Legolas and Gimli were running.”
Y. Running?


Getting a running start before settling down to hunt:

They came from the western slopes of the hill, silently, creeping through the trees as if they were hunting.
-The Departure of Boromir

And after all, they did form into a pair, just like Aragorn commanded.


Aragorn chews out Boromir and assigns him to hobbit nanny-duty. Then he says, “I shall return soon.”
Z. What is going through Aragorn’s mind,…


Ordinarily Boromir does seem to feel a sense of guardianship over the hobbits:

'This will be the death of the halflings, Gandalf,' said Boromir.


… and where is he planning to go, if not after the hobbits?

”I am going to the top, to the Seat of Amon Hen, to see what may be seen.”


AA. Why does Aragorn allow Boromir to, essentially, go looking for Frodo on his own?

If Boromir didn't take the ring from Frodo before he's not likely to do anything to Frodo now.

******************************************

I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jun 19 2015, 8:31pm

Post #4 of 17 (6362 views)
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C-D-E [In reply to] Can't Post

As he did in the previous chapter, Aragorn reviews Frodo’s choices, east vs. west: “which is the most desperate”?
C. Isn’t it rather shocking in a grammarian (as Tolkien once said about himself in another context) to see a superlative applied to a choice between two things?


I’m shocked to be missing the ‘superlative’ here?
Er, aren’t we almost directly north of Minas Tirith? Jus askin’.

D. This came up in the previous chapter too, but why are they so certain that Gollum will betray them to the Enemy?

Food for thought. Overreaction. Gollum is always thinking, “The Ringses, The Ringses”. Would he have more chance of getting The Ring if the Enemy captured Frodo, or leaving things as they are. Gollum has done such a fine sneakin’ job thus far; why would he want the Enemy to capture Frodo? He’s even gotten within a very few feet of The Ring/Frodo with his super nighttime-sneakin’. Don’t see him ratting out the Fellowship at this point.

E. After a dozen brief snippets like this since Book II, what is the impression a (attentive) reader gets of Denethor prior to his appearance in person in Book V?

Well, hope I’ve been attentive. He is a proud and noble leader and stewart, but there are hints of Denethor’s overly-proudness as he was not overjoyed to have Gandalf search the Gondorian scrolls. And he seemed rather future-pessimistic at the time. -Gandalf at Elrond’s Council I believe. So his demeanor doesn’t come as a total shock when we meet him later.



Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jun 19 2015, 10:57pm

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D [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps the Fellowship doesn't know the mind of poor little Smeagol at the moment. Aragorn might have done, but was only too pleased to get rid of him as he stank. Gandalf of course might not have jumped to such a conclusion if he had still been about.


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jun 19 2015, 10:59pm

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Tolkien liked his stairs! [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps Oxford had quite a few.


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jun 19 2015, 11:01pm

Post #7 of 17 (6348 views)
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In terms of choice [In reply to] Can't Post

Of who to go to Mordor if the Fellowship was split, in some ways the best choice was made, Frodo and Sam. A bit surprising that Aragorn didn't simply think of that one.


squire
Half-elven


Jun 22 2015, 3:08am

Post #8 of 17 (6294 views)
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Heroes don't assume non-heroes can survive without heroic aid. [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course we see that it all works out for the best, but I don't think Aragorn thought it was possible that Frodo and Sam, unaided, could complete the quest.



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noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 22 2015, 2:46pm

Post #9 of 17 (6280 views)
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learning to be 'ruthless' [In reply to] Can't Post

Curious had an interesting point about this in answer to the 2008 discussion of this Chapter (before my time here, but the search engine is sometimes wonderful...)


Quote
I don't know if Gandalf had plans before he fell and rose again, but he has plans now, and they don't include catching up with the Fellowship, even though Gwaihir could easily give him a ride, knows the location of the company, and has communicated that information to the newly-resurrected and white-robed wizard. Aragorn has not yet learned how to send hobbits off to Mordor. Gandalf has, and does, refusing even to send word to Frodo that he still lives. Gandalf is ruthless, but Tolkien glosses over this beautifully. Only those who closely examine the timeline will realize what Gandalf has done.

Idealism does not mean being nice. Gandalf is idealistic, but often he is not at all nice. This is one of those times. Aragorn needs to learn how to be equally ruthless, and later will show that he has learned his lesson when he abandons Theoden, Merry, Eomer, and Eowyn to their respective fates. What should Aragorn have done at Amon Hen? Tell Frodo and Sam to take it from here, while the rest of the Fellowship provides a distraction, including Merry and Pippin acting as decoys. Aragorn couldn't handle that responsibility, so Fate intervened. Fortunately, as poor a showing as Aragorn made as a leader, at least he resisted his personal temptation, and turned his back not only on Frodo but also on Minas Tirith.

Curious
http://newboards.theonering.net/...cgi?post=85141#85141


~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

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sador
Half-elven


Jul 1 2015, 1:26pm

Post #10 of 17 (6174 views)
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Try stopping somebody invisible [In reply to] Can't Post

A. Must we conclude that is this the only time since Rivendell – months on the road, night after night around a campfire – when the Fellowship has a chat in which lore and memories are shared?
It seems so. Especially considering the ignorance displayed (as you've noted) in the coming books - which, obviously, serves as a pretext to explanations intended for the readers. Frodo and Merry, at least, seem to be quite knowledgeable when needed to be by the story - and I don't think either Legolas or Gimli know less.

But on the other hand, most of Aragorn's tales are old lore, bits and pieces from recent travells, and reports by others (or less charitably, hearsay). While Bormir should be relatively updated. Why don't they ask him? Which really amounts to - how come they take so long to realise he's gone?

B. How many great Stairs does Middle-earth have, and how do they compare to real great Stairs in, say, Medieval Europe?
Well, Bracegirdle enjoys and is good at this kind of questions and riddles, so I'll leave the answer to him.


C. Isn’t it rather shocking in a grammarian to see a superlative applied to a choice between two things?
That's a nice catch! But as Darkstone says, there might be other options - like Sam's suggestion of throwing the Ring in the River and bolting, Boromir's of using it. and Frodo's own little idea of offering it to Galadriel.
All of them look pretty desperate, too.

D. This came up in the previous chapter too, but why are they so certain that Gollum will betray them to the Enemy?
They just can't conceive of his scheming for himself, like Sam wouldn't be until hearing Gollum's inner debate after passing the marshes.

Also they seem certain that he was sent forth (later Frodo guesses he was let to escape - which Shagrat will confirm) from Barad-dur, and that the attack on Mirkwood was pre-planned and orchestrated. And wasn't Gollum seen by Haldir with the marauding orcs from Moria?

E. After a dozen brief snippets like this since Book II, what is the impression a (attentive) reader gets of Denethor prior to his appearance in person in Book V?
That Gandalf doesn't like him.

And also that he wasn't keen on letting Boromir (or Faramir) set out for Rivendell.

F. Why is Aragorn so wishy-washy about what plainly has to be done under his leadership?
I don't think he sees it like Sam. And he is still trying to combines both of his roles - of the Heir of Elendil, and of Mithrandir.


G. Why does the woodland Elf, Legolas, want to go to Minas Tirith?
It's on the green side.

H. How does this square with Gimli’s apparent scorn, back when leaving Rivendell, for anyone who would abandon the quest when the going got tough?

Perfectly okay. He isn't abandoning anything, just recommending a longer route.

I. Why does Legolas not analyze his commitment to Frodo the way Gimli does, so that he comes across as confused if not spineless?

It's a classic "Go not to Elves for advice" case.


I’ll just put this on the table, and step back.
J. Gimli?

You need somebody noisy to distract the orcs.

Or else, Aragorn is simply "rewarding" (a la Pippin) those who were closest to Lady Galadriel.
Either answer is unconvincing.

K. What has made Merry and Pippin change their tunes?
As Merry says: experience. He realises that this job is way too large for them (as Elrond said he would).

However, as Gandalf said, they wish they could follow them.

L. Who in The Lord of the Rings stands by their pledges when things get tough, and who backs off with “it seemed different”?
They don't back off.

I would guess the vassals of Gondor, and Rohan too, did stand by their pledges.
Who backs off? Gandalf and Elrond?

Quote

Frito suddenly felt that all eyes were on him. "Couldn't we just drop it down a storm drain, or pawn it and swallow the ticket?" he said.
"Alas," said Goodgulf solemnly, "it is not that easy."
"But why?"
"Alas," explained Goodgulf.
"Alackaday," Orlon agreed.



L (ii). What does Pippin mean by saying in rapid succession, “We must stop him” and “…if we can’t stop him, we shan’t leave him”?
He is still underage. Won't be allowed to vote, drive or drink in decent countries.


M. How did Strider, or Legolas, or Gimil not notice, by sight or hearing or sense of footsteps, a large Man of Gondor leaving and walking across the grass to the woods in the near distance?
Boromir is neither a thief nor a tracker; but more is the pity, as he seems to be really good.

N. Why, whether having traveled with Frodo for several months or having known him all their lives, do none of the company except Sam recognize the nature of Frodo’s paralysis?
The are all self-centered aristocrats. There is no way they would be attentive enough to Frodo.

O. What schooling has Frodo had that keeps him from “pawning the Ring and losing the ticket” at this point, but didn’t keep him from doing the same thing in the Shire?
He has tried to give it away once, and was foiled.


P. Is Sam right to invoke the name Baggins when characterizing Frodo’s ultimate ability to dive headfirst into mortal peril and pain?
I think of it as a jab at the Tooks and Brandybucks, to say nothing of members of other spieces.

Q. What exactly does he mean?

He is reminding himself.
Come to think of it, he had said before he would like to see what he can from the crown of Amon Hen. So he intends to go there.


R. Can one ‘lie by omission’ in Middle-earth?
Gollum did, to no less an interrogator than Gandalf.


But here this is no real lie, as it is obvious there is something he is not saying.

S. Why doesn’t Boromir confess and ask forgiveness at this point?
He did, from Frodo.

And does Aragorn have the priestly power of absolution? (that's a question for the next discussion, somewhere. sometime).

T. Do any folk tales of our real world feature a mortal having the power of invisibility (as opposed to belief in invisible beings)?
Several (see Darkstone's answer).

U. What, if any, ancient history or race might have provided the basis for Gondor’s ‘tales” of vanishing at will?
Didn't Gandalf do so in the goblins' cave? If not, at least it seems so.

V. How much does Aragorn know, do you think?
By his future decisions, it seems that not that much.

W. Why is Sam so upset by the fact that Frodo put the Ring on, while Merry takes it rather casually?

As Darkstone quoted, Sam remembers well thge last time Frodo used the Ring; Merry only remembers Bilbo. (On Weathertop, it is likely that nobody but Sam realised that Frodo had used it).


X. Why do they panic so completely and so suddenly?
Because of the time that has passed.


“Legolas and Gimli were running.”
Y. Running?

Yes, I think so. At least they stop in time.


Z. What is going through Aragorn’s mind, and where is he planning to go, if not after the hobbits?
To sit in the Royal Seat.

AA. Why does Aragorn allow Boromir to, essentially, go looking for Frodo on his own?
He suspects nothing.



squire
Half-elven


Jul 1 2015, 5:03pm

Post #11 of 17 (6177 views)
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They are all self-centered aristocrats. [In reply to] Can't Post

As an explanation for otherwise inexplicable characteristics and actions by this Fellowship, this statement begs to be explored.

Does anyone here know any actual aristocrats? Is it likely that Tolkien did, either because he was raised in the educated middle class in a country still run by actual aristocrats, or because he had immersed himself for years in literature produced by and for aristocrats? Do aristocrats share the common feature of being self-centered, especially more so or in a different way than common people?

The question for this chapter, if not entire book, being: how can we modern commoners from deeply democratic cultures judge if, in fact, this entire company (except Sam) are of such noble birth and training that they really lack empathy, perceptiveness about others' characters, and curiosity about motivations and emotions in anyone but themselves?

(Or is it just that they're all guys?)



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sador
Half-elven


Jul 1 2015, 5:38pm

Post #12 of 17 (6170 views)
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I wouldn't go so far. [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps I've overstated a bit. But they clearly focus on themselves, rather than on Frodo (which Sam does). They can empathize with Frodo, but cannot fully understand him.

I suppose we would all make similar mistakes - living in a Democratic society, which encourages people to try and attain self-fulfillment. A century ago, this was a privilege reserved for aristocrats and really wealthy merchants; today, we would be harder-pressed to identify with Sam - who of us knows personal servants, who serve the same master for years and see themselves primarily as "the master's man"?


sador
Half-elven


Jul 3 2015, 8:44am

Post #13 of 17 (6149 views)
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Like listening to favourite music. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for re-posting Curious' old post!

Perhaps what he wrote about Aragorn was the germ of my reading of his character; I sure didn't think of it as a teen-ager, and can't remember when I first did.

And I did remember his assertion that Gandalf was ruthless - although more in connection with the Council of Elrond, as well as (a point I don't remember Curious making) his treatment of Denethor.

I am not quite sure, however, that Gandalf could have cught up with Frodo so easily. In the drafts, he clearly could have, as he was taken to Tol Brandir (persumably just for this purpose), and after stuggling with Sauron went to Fangorn - perhaps to divert attention, like he went to the trollshaws after meeting the Black Riders on Weathertop?

However, according to the published book, he could not see much, as "There was a darkness over the valleys of the Emyn Muil", and I suppose that even before that, with the Nazgul up in the air, it would not have been so easy to join them unseen, when carried in the open air. After it was felled from the sky, the Fellowship went on in tortuous ways until it was broken, and Gandalf was spent, weary and heavy-hearted after his struggle with Sauron. By the time he had recuperated, Frodo was in the Marshes, unseen by even the Nazgul.
The next time Frodo might have been observed was when coming out of the No-man's lands to the Gate if Mordor, but even then Tolkien insists:

Quote

Not even an eagle poised against the sun would have marked the hobbits sitting there, under the weight of doom, silent, not moving, shrouded in their thin grey cloaks. For a moment he might have paused to consider Gollum, a tiny figure sprawling on the ground: there perhaps lay the famished skeleton of some child of Men, its ragged garment still clinging to it, its long arms and legs almost bone-white and bone-thin: no flesh worth a peck.




(This post was edited by sador on Jul 3 2015, 8:44am)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jul 4 2015, 5:37am

Post #14 of 17 (6134 views)
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That's an important point. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's also related to the theory that is often considered during The Bridge of Khazad-dûm chapter, that Gandalf let go, and fell willingly, knowing the quest needed to be on its own now.

But I do wonder what would have changed if Frodo knew Gandalf had returned. Surely one of the greatest burdens he had to carry was knowing that Gandalf was gone and he and Sam were utterly alone with the fate of Middle Earth on their shoulders.








Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jul 4 2015, 10:53pm

Post #15 of 17 (6097 views)
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That is quite a good question [In reply to] Can't Post

About commoners in Lotr, the other day I was trying to think of a few and I didn't have much success. Even Smeagol was probably sort of an aristocrat in his own society. The only one I can possibly think of is Beren as he was an outlaw and on his own at least for a while.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 5 2015, 10:13am

Post #16 of 17 (6077 views)
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choice and necessity and ruthlessness [In reply to] Can't Post

I see the misgivings about that 'ruthless' tag for Gandalf. It assumes that catching up with Frodo and Sm is something that he could have attempted, so that he makes a concious decision not to. That leads, as you point out to thinking about whether it would have been at all practical to find Frodo , or whether it would have been folly even to try (the reasoning Gandalf tells us he used when he didn't try to rendezvous with Frodo after the fight at Weathertop). Mixed in with this is, I think, an issue of faith - Tolkien has been building the idea that Frodo is 'meant' to take the Ring, and that only he will succeed. So maybe Gandalf is extending this to the idea that nobody else is meant to go along, and attempts to do so will only jeopardize the mission. I see what Curious meant, calling this ruthless, but I can also see how that term might sound wrong.

Perhaps we should pin the 'ruthless' label on Tolkien himself? He's seemingly long decided that only Frodo and Sam (and Gollum) should be on the quest to destroy the Ring. He's now developed the other Fellowship characters to a point where it's near impossible for them to let Frodo go in this way. This creates a great tension (which Tolkien has been - as we discussed - stoking enthusiastically in the last chapter). Now he uses Boromir's betrayal (also carefully set up over the whole of Book II) and the sudden odd confusion that besets the Fellowship to get Frodo and Sam away, whether the other characters want it or not. Next chapter, of course, we get the Fellowship's woes being compounded by an orc ambush, which ruthlessly forces Aragorn's hand.

It took me some readings - and reading posts here - to appreciate the magnitude of this plot twist! In hindsight it's clear that it sets up much of the rest of the story (and that Tolkien is happy to remind readers of this - for example having Gandalf point out that the main effect of Saruman's orc raid is to bring Merry and Pippin to Fangorn, exactly where they will be useful.)

Certainly - see Elizabeth's post nearby - Frodo has to make do with always being in his comrades' thoughts, & without any knowledge of how they are faring.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jul 6 2015, 1:05pm

Post #17 of 17 (6055 views)
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Tolkien as the ruthless one [In reply to] Can't Post

Calling Gandalf "ruthless" seems inaccurate; he's the one who feels sorry for Bill the Pony and the trees at the Hollin Gate. And the one time we get to peer into his mind while he's sitting by Frodo's bed in Rivendell after the events at the Ford of Bruinen, he's full of concern for the hobbit. I think the crux is that Gandalf doesn't do what we would like him to do, or what we would like to think we would do in a similar situation. But I could go along with Tolkien as the ruthless one since he wrote the story and Gandalf didn't, and JRR certainly sets Frodo up to take a long, hard journey almost alone. Though it's not Tolkien who's trying to be ruthless, he's being faithful to the genre of heroic tales. If (shall we say) a squadron of Eagles flew Frodo to Mordor, that would be the author treating Frodo every nicely, but there wouldn't be much pathos for us readers. If it's going to be an exciting story, there has to be peril in it, and to have peril, you can't have a guardian angel (Gandalf) protecting Frodo at all times. So that lets Tolkien off the hook for being ruthless and puts the onus on the genre and on us readers who expect a dark and difficult journey for a hero.

 
 

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