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lionoferebor
Rohan
Jul 3 2015, 8:34pm
Post #1 of 11
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Why does Thranduil turn the Dwarves away?
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In DOS Thorin confronts Thranduil saying, "We came to you once, starving, homeless, seeking your help, but you turned your back. You turned away from the suffering of my people in the inferno that destroyed us."
In reference to the latter part, Thranduil responds, "Do not speak to me of dragon fire. I know it's wrath and ruin. I have face the great serpents of the north." Also in the AUJ prologue we learn that "Thranduil would not risk the lives of his kin against the wrath of the dragon."
However - unless I missed it - I don't recall an explanation given as to why Thranduil turned his back on the Dwarves when they came to him starving, homeless, seeking his help. (Seeing they were homeless, it would come to reason they came to him sometime after Smaug's attack). I'm pretty sure the Dwarves did not come to him with a dragon in tow, so there would not have been any risk to him or his kin. So, in that moment why did he turn them away? Why not give them some food and supplies? Even if it's not enough for all of them, something is better than nothing.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jul 3 2015, 9:38pm
Post #2 of 11
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He was still mad at Thror for not giving him his necklace. Elves can be very bitter folk. And he already warned Thror about what would happen if he hoarded such an obscene amount of wealth, so I guess he felt like he didn't owe them anything.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 3 2015, 11:00pm
Post #3 of 11
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They didn't give a lot of detail in the films, but....
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I think MovieThranduil's additude is along the lines of "You cheated me out of my jewels and ignored all my warnings about the dangers of pride and gold and and brought a dragon into my neighborhood and now you want me to feed and supply all of you in the crisis you made for yourselves? Nope."
Instead of "want" in that sentence, I was going to put "beg" but then I wondered if the more accurate word might not have been "demand". The pride of Thorin's line has always been their downfall. Do we know that Thror, Thrain and Thorin were even humble in asking for help? Or did they come in and demand, accusing Thranduil of cowardice and faithlessness for not fighting the dragon and then expecting him to house and feed a whole nation of dwarves in repayment for it? And probably expecting him to come retake the Mountain with them. Because....I could see that being how it went.
The more burning question for me is why they didn't go to Dain for help. Even in the book (LOTR appendices), where Thranduil refusing aid isn't the issue that it is in the movie, it says that many from Erebor moved to the Iron Hills but Thorin's family never did. Again, I expect pride got in the way - the Kings of Erebor weren't willing to live as guests in another dwarf's kingdom. They had to be in charge wherever they went.
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jul 4 2015, 12:29am
Post #4 of 11
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Do we know that Thror, Thrain and Thorin were even humble in asking for help? Or did they come in and demand, accusing Thranduil of cowardice and faithlessness for not fighting the dragon and then expecting him to house and feed a whole nation of dwarves in repayment for it?
Well, the movie doesn't specify timelines, but I always pictured that moment - however it came about - that the dwarves were on the move west - to Moria? To the Blue Mountains? but looking at a map of ME - it seems reasonable that the dwarves may have had to pass through the Forest - and were asking for supplies, even tho Thranduil had already turned his back once, re the actual attack. The dwarves may not have wanted to ask, but to me that would explain Thorin's bitterness:
"You turned away from the suffering of my people...and the inferno that destroyed us...." e.g. I think since the dwarves had had to flee so fast, they would have had few supplies, for a long march to the west.
Re the Iron Hills - well, there is dwarf pride, and possibly Thror not being in his right mind, but it may also be that that far North, there is no way that there would have been enough food for all, even if the Iron Hills dwarves had welcomed everyone - e.g. because to me the name "Iron Hills" evokes just that - a tough, unforgiving environment without a lot of rich fields for crops and/or possibly not a lot of water that supports fish, and any game is hard to come by. There is probably trade, but it's a long trip that would be tough in winter.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 4 2015, 10:15pm
Post #5 of 11
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Were the Elves even there because of the Dragon?
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I contend that Thranduil was never there with the intention of aiding the Dwarves of Erebor. There are anywhere from 40 to 50 miles between Thranduil's Halls and Lonely Mountain. Even if the Wood-elves became aware of the coming of Smaug before the dragon actually reached Dale or Erebor, it would have taken two or three days (certainly more than mere hours) to muster an armed force and reach the Mountain.
The only way that that the Wood-elves could have reached Erebor while the Dwarves were still escaping from Smaug was if they weren't there for the dragon at all, but because Thranduil had come to force Thror to surrender the Necklace of Lasgalen and the rest of the white gems to him. The presence of Smaug made the effort moot, so he turned his back on the Dwarves and withdrew.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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moreorless
Gondor
Jul 6 2015, 12:07pm
Post #6 of 11
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Maybe an early decision to head for Moria?
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Do we know that Thror, Thrain and Thorin were even humble in asking for help? Or did they come in and demand, accusing Thranduil of cowardice and faithlessness for not fighting the dragon and then expecting him to house and feed a whole nation of dwarves in repayment for it?
Well, the movie doesn't specify timelines, but I always pictured that moment - however it came about - that the dwarves were on the move west - to Moria? To the Blue Mountains? but looking at a map of ME - it seems reasonable that the dwarves may have had to pass through the Forest - and were asking for supplies, even tho Thranduil had already turned his back once, re the actual attack. The dwarves may not have wanted to ask, but to me that would explain Thorin's bitterness:
"You turned away from the suffering of my people...and the inferno that destroyed us...." e.g. I think since the dwarves had had to flee so fast, they would have had few supplies, for a long march to the west.
Re the Iron Hills - well, there is dwarf pride, and possibly Thror not being in his right mind, but it may also be that that far North, there is no way that there would have been enough food for all, even if the Iron Hills dwarves had welcomed everyone - e.g. because to me the name "Iron Hills" evokes just that - a tough, unforgiving environment without a lot of rich fields for crops and/or possibly not a lot of water that supports fish, and any game is hard to come by. There is probably trade, but it's a long trip that would be tough in winter.
I could certainly see Thror being too proud to ask for help just as I could see him demanding it without much humility.
Equally as presented in the films I think we get the impression that the decision to try and reclaim Moria happened fairly quickly after the fall of Erebor. That to would make sense for Thror's character, driven by a need for power and wealth it would likely have been his first choice to the degree he might have moved directly towards trying to reoccupy it.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 6 2015, 3:46pm
Post #7 of 11
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"Starving, homeless, asking for help."
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I don't think that the Dwarves would have appealed to Thranduil for aid again after he turned his back on them at Erebor. Thorin is probably referring to the incident we witnessed in the prologue from AUJ. The Dwarves who did not flee to the Iron Hills would not have had the food and supplies to travel the Forest Road; they probably turned South and made their way to Dunland, working metal and bartering for what they needed from what they were able to carry away.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Jul 7 2015, 12:31pm
Post #8 of 11
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I don't think that the Dwarves would have appealed to Thranduil for aid again after he turned his back on them at Erebor. Thorin is probably referring to the incident we witnessed in the prologue from AUJ.
And, considering the massive grudge Thorin had nursed for years against the Elves for that incident, Thorin could easily have construed in his own mind that Thrandruil's refusal to help them with the dragon attack also amounted to leaving them starving in the wilderness. (He wouldn't be that far off, if you ask me.)
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jul 7 2015, 12:52pm
Post #9 of 11
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Agree with all above but in addition...
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"Other lands are not my concern. The fortunes of the world will rise and fall, but here in this kingdom, we will endure."
Thranduil is portrayed with a distinctly isolationist streak by the time of the events of TH. We don't know true history of this world view but it seems perfectly possible that his also informed his decisions around helping those fleeing Erebor.
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jul 7 2015, 3:18pm
Post #10 of 11
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... That in fact, Thranduil and his army went near Erebor on Smaug's Day in order to attack the mountain if the jewels weren't sent back to him.
So he wasn't in mood of helping the dwarves on that fatal day.
If he had come to help, hearing about the dragon's arrival, why would he carry his army and give no help at all ?
It felt just as if :"Ah, the punishing job is already done.'
As far as young Thorin may have been shocked by Thror's greediness, this betrayal was unforgivable.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 7 2015, 3:49pm
Post #11 of 11
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Thranduil and his army went near Erebor on Smaug's Day in order to attack the mountain if the jewels weren't sent back to him.
I came to this conclusion not that long ago. It is the only realistic explanation of how Thranduil and his army managed to reach Erebor while the Dwarves were still within its boundaries.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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