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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 5 2015, 10:41pm
Post #51 of 66
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You do bring up an interesting point. I think that where you and I often disagree is where I generally assume that behind-the-scene events related to the films parallel events in Tolkien's canon (which, after all, is what the films are based upon) unless there is a good reason to believe otherwise. I don't think that you are as willing to make that assumption.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 5 2015, 10:43pm)
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brotherbeck
Rivendell
Jul 5 2015, 11:23pm
Post #52 of 66
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I don't understand how anyone can buy the filmmakers' argument that they were worried that sticking a little closer to what happens in the books would be confusing to viewers, as the storyline they ultimately came up with is actually quite convoluted and confusing itself. It certainly didn't streamline or simplify anything.
I think it is a shame that they obviously didn't have much concern with sticking somewhat close to the books as they did when adapting LOTR, as I think that version with these actors and crew would have been incredible - yet at the same time the changes they did make just seen silly and pointless to me. Had they done something amazing like kept Smaug alive for the battle, the same people would still be upset at any changes but at least you could see that PJ was going for something incredible and exciting. Something like having Legolas show up to fight and kill Bolg is just so boring and stupid and something we have all already seen so much of.
This is why I can't for the life of me understand why PJ chose to ignore the character of Beorn and pretty much remove him from the films - I thought for sure we would at the very least get some amazing Beorn in battle. The way the battle played out in the films was just so anticlimactic. It just fizzles out and the film moves on. I know you don't even 'see' a lot of the battle in the book but that was always something I assumed they were going to change, especially when they changed the name of the 3rd film.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jul 6 2015, 12:44am
Post #53 of 66
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What 'Jackson fell in love with' is speculation, I feel
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Personally, I don't think 'Jackson' fell in love with the 'name Azog'. I think he just wanted Bolg to be an antagonist purely for Legolas – also a made-up character in the films – to have a continuous vendetta against (starting with the ridiculous sequence in Laketown, in DoS), in order to somehow justify Legolas's existence in the films. Azog, on the other hand, was made to be the antagonist for Thorin.
For myself, I don't give two hoots about the names of Orcs – they are interchangeable as far as I'm concerned. Tolkien's Orcs were hardly very noticeable characters (as far as I'm concerned, because I don't even remember any of them). I don't believe it was Tolkien's intention to make them stand out.
As long as the presence of a character makes sense within the film story line, and Azog's did, in my view, I have no problem with it. Moreover, I do believe Azog was well realised and is the most intimidating of the Orcs in all of the ME films. The ones in LotR did nothing for me. The only antagonists that were menacing in LotR were the Black Riders and perhaps the Ringwraiths in FotR, who were extremely well realised.
it is that Jackson fell in love with the name Azog and wanted to bring the character into the present of the film(s).
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Jul 6 2015, 12:46am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 6 2015, 12:57am
Post #54 of 66
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Personally, I don't think 'Jackson' fell in love with the 'name Azog'. I think he just wanted Bolg to be an antagonist purely for Legolas – also a made-up character in the films – to have a continuous vendetta against (starting with the ridiculous sequence in Laketown, in DoS), in order to somehow justify Legolas's existence in the films. Azog, on the other hand, was made to be the antagonist for Thorin.
If I'm remembering correctly, Peter Jackson's sentiment about Azog was either expressed directly by him or attributed by him in an interview or other article. I have no opinion about how Jackson felt about Bolg.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jul 6 2015, 6:32am
Post #55 of 66
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It was actually Philippa Boyens who made the statement about Azog the Defiler...
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...being "such a great name we just had to keep it," in an EMPIRE podcast after AUJ came out. She went on to say that the girls on the production team/set had had t-shirts made with the words "You can defile me anytime!" (http://www.vulture.com/...oyens-interview.html) 
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 6 2015, 7:58am
Post #56 of 66
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I'm sure that you're right. I remembered seeing this somewhere but could not recall the exact context.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jul 6 2015, 10:41am
Post #57 of 66
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…but it was more to do with the actor than with 'falling in love with the name Azog', as has been suggested.
...being "such a great name we just had to keep it," in an EMPIRE podcast after AUJ came out. She went on to say that the girls on the production team/set had had t-shirts made with the words "You can defile me anytime!" ( http://www.vulture.com/...oyens-interview.html) |
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moreorless
Gondor
Jul 6 2015, 11:50am
Post #58 of 66
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He swore to wipe out the line of Durin - okay, I guess that makes him a bad guy. Bottom line is, I've seen some FINE performances from actors playing villians (Christopher Lee, for instance), and it's probably not Manu Bennet's fault since he was given so little to work with. A little bit of depth goes a long way - Thorin cut off his arm? Azog cut off Thror's head! That's not really character-building. And that scene where he killed one of his Orcs at Weathertop, what was that? A definite eye-rolling moment, like I've seen that in a thousand movies. There's a difference in what bad guys DO and what bad guys ARE. We only saw what he could do. I swear the Uruk-hai that Aragorn killed at the end of LoTR had more personality than Azog.
For one thing Tolkien generally tends to go with rather one dimensional badguys, they have motivations but there not conflicted at all which is generally quite liberate as his stories tend to focus more on the moral conflict of the good guys.
In terms of personality though I really disagree with your point about the Uruk Hai in LOTR. They make effective foes but really beyond Ugluk's thugish cockney exchanges in TTT theres not a great deal of personality to any of them, Lurtz is basically just a monster.
As much as many dislike it Azog being CGI really allows him to have a much greater subtly of emotion than any orc in LOTR. He's not emotionally conflicted but we see angery, arrogance, disappointment, etc much more effectively with him just as we did with Gollum in LOTR.
I just wish Jackson had made his mind up faster so we could have seen Conan Stevens stay on in Game of Thrones, the most recent Mountain was pretty good but the one in season 2 was pretty dull.
(This post was edited by moreorless on Jul 6 2015, 11:54am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 6 2015, 3:50pm
Post #59 of 66
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…it was more to do with the actor than with 'falling in love with the name Azog', as has been suggested.
The part of Azog the Hunter was likely written long before an actor was cast, so the decision to have Azog alive in the story's present would have already been made.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jul 6 2015, 4:09pm
Post #60 of 66
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In saying that it was more to do with the actor than 'falling in love with the name Azog', I was referring to the following statement posted above:
'It was actually Philippa Boyens who made the statement about Azog the Defiler...being "such a great name we just had to keep it," in an EMPIRE podcast after AUJ came out. She went on to say that the girls on the production team/set had had t-shirts made with the words "You can defile me anytime!"'
Thus the statements with regard to 'Jackson' 'falling in love with Azog' appear to be more relevant to the above Boyens's assertions than to 'Jackson's' romances.
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Jul 6 2015, 4:14pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 6 2015, 4:41pm
Post #61 of 66
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Crushing on the actor is all well and good.
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The crushes and the t-shirts have nothing to do with Azog becoming Thorin's antagonist in the Hobbit films.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jul 6 2015, 5:19pm
Post #62 of 66
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I give up! It's too hot…
The crushes and the t-shirts have nothing to do with Azog becoming Thorin's antagonist in the Hobbit films.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 6 2015, 5:54pm
Post #63 of 66
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Look. I understood what you posted.
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It's just that your point seems irrelevant to the topic at hand.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jul 6 2015, 8:20pm
Post #64 of 66
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It's most about the looks and the places
Azog was terrific as an animated cgi-faced character, as was the Goblin King. Bolg a little less, for he has a wooden mood.
Azog is less ugly and more vibrant than Bolg, Bolg is a walking brute.
What we do have to consider is the scenery where they evolve :
- Wheathertop (pre-remaining of FOTR)
- Goblintown
- The Pine forest burning
- The forest near Beorn's house and Thranduil's halls
- The Barrel's riverbed
- Laketown by night
- Dol Guldur populated by orcs and wargs
- Ravenhill occupied
- The frozen tarn
The storyline is mostly a pretext to get engaging 3D HFR pictures.
The Hobbit is mostly a visual feast, far above LOTR
Neither Tolkien nor readers imagination could deliver that.
Azog couldn't be killed at the beginning of the story like Thror.
Thror could be killed soon because we had fifteen dwarves left : Thorin, Balin, Dwalin, Kili, Fili, Bifur, Bofur, Bombur, Oin, Gloin, Nori, Ori, Dori, Thrain and Dain.
If you kill Azog at the beginning you have only ONE Chief orc left. Simply put, only one orc recognizable would have been too few.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jul 6 2015, 8:34pm
Post #65 of 66
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If you kill Azog at the beginning you have only ONE Chief orc left. Simply put, only one orc recognizable would have been too few.
Might the Great Goblin count? Of course he is also killed off before the company leaves the Misty Mountains behind. In the book, Bolg seems to have taken command of all of the goblins in the Misty Mountains and Grey Mountains, but someone must have succeeded the Great Goblin in Goblin-town. This would have been a new character, but he could still have been connected to Azog and Bolg if he were Bolg's son. Such a person might have worked in the films as well.
So, I think that Azog really could have been killed in the Battle of Moria and the story could have worked just as well.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jul 6 2015, 8:37pm)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jul 6 2015, 9:30pm
Post #66 of 66
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Don't forget we have three meetings between Azog and Bolg
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- One in the forest, Bolg riding a warg and sending Azog to Dol Guldur
- One in Dol Guldur, Azog sending Bolg to track the dwarves
- One after Smaug's death, Azog sending Bolg to Gundabad.
All of these three made the plot progress, connecting Azog and Bolg to Sauron in the process.
They were needed, unless we have some unknown orc lieutenant to do the job.
It's more climactic to have Bolg as a strong lieutenant, because he is strong enough to lead an army.
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