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Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien
Jun 26 2015, 10:26pm
Post #1 of 28
(1954 views)
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We actually got most of what we asked for...
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We got a Hobbit that tied into LOTR, and was both gritty and still had the lightheartedness of the book. To top that all off, I was looking back, and almost entirely everything inside this (http://newboards.theonering.net/...psed;guest=143925954 thread all made it into the movie. Some people might not agree how it turned out, but I was fine with it. We did get what we asked for, even if some people didn't like some of the changes.
"Obviously the idea of being human is a very human idea."
-Dominic Monaghan
(This post was edited by Hobbity Hobbit on Jun 26 2015, 10:28pm)
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CathrineB
Rohan
Jun 26 2015, 10:42pm
Post #2 of 28
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AUJ gave me a lot of what I asked for. A wonderful Company. New Zealand. Music (though not the best). Entertainment and generally a lot that I love.
BotfA however gave us/me a whole lot I did not ask for and kicked away what I had hoped for. Which should be a given. Because frankly, wanting focus on the Company when the story is supposed to be about Bilbo and the dwarves shouldn't be too much to ask for. To expect some deep moments between the dwarves that are going to die most certainly should have been there. I mean I did expect they would want us to feel pain and feels, not just anger and displeasure with everything 
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jun 26 2015, 11:00pm
Post #3 of 28
(1842 views)
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So I think I will just repeat them here:
AUJ gave me a lot of what I asked for. A wonderful Company. New Zealand. Music (though not the best). Entertainment and generally a lot that I love. BotfA however gave us/me a whole lot I did not ask for and kicked away what I had hoped for. Which should be a given. Because frankly, wanting focus on the Company when the story is supposed to be about Bilbo and the dwarves shouldn't be too much to ask for. To expect some deep moments between the dwarves that are going to die most certainly should have been there. I mean I did expect they would want us to feel pain and feels, not just anger and displeasure with everything
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Jun 26 2015, 11:01pm)
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Thrain II
Lorien
Jun 26 2015, 11:11pm
Post #4 of 28
(1829 views)
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I also share the same sentiments.
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brotherbeck
Rivendell
Jun 27 2015, 2:09am
Post #5 of 28
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I must say I echo those same sentiments for the 3rd or 4th time. As the trilogy went on I feel like the focus wandered completely away from where it should have been and the creative decisions became poorer and poorer. It doesn't seem like much of New Zealand was shown at all during BOTFA. The only part that stands out to me as actual scenery is the one scene on the shores of The Long Lake.
I tried not to get too hung up on the trilogy decision at first and the lengths of the films, because I honestly could watch 4 hour films filled with scenes like Thorin and Bilbo discussing his home in the Shire, or any scene of that nature where the actors are really getting the opportunity to have their characters and their emotions shine through. The dwarves interacting with each other and Bilbo. I was hoping that we would get three films that sort of zoomed in so to speak on the story of The Hobbit, and explored things in greater detail that the book may have sped through with some quick narration or exposition. That is not at all what we got. Not even in the slightest.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 27 2015, 9:39am
Post #6 of 28
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I echo your feelings rather than the four expressed above...
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... I think the films do strike that balance between seriousness and lightheartedness. It doesn't always come off (for me) but since it was a task even Tolkien was defeated by I'd rather applaud Peter Jackson for what he has achieved than join a general chorus of discontent.
I love the films. As before, there are things I wouldn't have done but there are also sublime, beautiful, extraordinary moments that I wouldn't have missed for worlds.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 27 2015, 11:56am
Post #7 of 28
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There certainly were (at least) two tones to the films but I don't think they were handled deftly or as successfully as they ought to have been (challenging though that is).
On reflection, and this would be unpopular I'm sure with those yearning for lengthy scenes of dwarves chatting whilst the sunlight glistens in their hair, I think a single tone may have been better (of course, we can't know for sure).
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 27 2015, 12:41pm
Post #8 of 28
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Yes, a single tone might have been better....
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It would certainly have been a lot easier to achieve. But then, which single tone?
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 27 2015, 12:52pm
Post #9 of 28
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Lose the vestiges of twee and go for the LOTR match.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jun 27 2015, 4:53pm
Post #10 of 28
(1537 views)
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I am reserving final judgement for the EE.
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The theatrical releases have a lot of peaks and valleys.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jun 27 2015, 4:54pm)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jun 27 2015, 7:31pm
Post #11 of 28
(1487 views)
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In Some Ways PJ needed to be a MIND-READER?
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"What are the Tolkien Fans gunna Want?"
"What SHOULD be, in this, to PLEASE Them?"
"What will they? Think is COOL.."
"What if, they don't LIKE this..?"
ETC. ETC..etc..
Tough Job PJ had,
But in the long RUN..?
...NOBODY on EARTH was UP
for this Impossible TASK..
AND for THAT
we might want to put
ourselves into his ROLE?
AND
Play NICE with
PJ's Product...
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jun 27 2015, 7:39pm
Post #12 of 28
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And also agree with Spriggan and Brotherbeck (although for me LOL it's not so much that I wanted to see dwarves talking with sunlight glistening in their hair , but I still *wistful* would have liked to have seen just a few seconds of the Company sitting around with *firelight glistening in their hair*, e.g., just seeing Thorin and Bilbo talking a bit, showing the changed dynamics of their relationship - tho I think there was a little of that in the acorn scene.)
Because for me, by DOS when Thorin says "not our only hope" there's an EMOTION about the way he says that, and then there's a "blip" when Bilbo smiles at Thorin through the cell doors....
And I am not 'shipping, but it will always be very touching for me that this little Hobbit was able to bond with this warrior-being who had been through so much; the two are such worlds apart.
So yes, for me, absolutely:
I love the films. As before, there are things I wouldn't have done but there are also sublime, beautiful, extraordinary moments that I wouldn't have missed for worlds.
Oh, yes. And for me so many of them, that if I had to list all "my moments" it would be impossible - LOL it can take hours to get through the Hobbit films hitting the replay button.
But:
BotfA however gave us/me a whole lot I did not ask for and kicked away what I had hoped for. Which should be a given. Because frankly, wanting focus on the Company when the story is supposed to be about Bilbo and the dwarves shouldn't be too much to ask for. To expect some deep moments between the dwarves that are going to die most certainly should have been there.
I remember welling up at the first BOFA trailer, which I had never done before. I remember dreading, but wanting to see, and again dreading , my *expected* dynamics between the "increasingly disillusioned Fili" re a comment in Empire magazine and the first leaked pictures and then the TV spots - some of which had this soaring music.
Outside of uneasily thinking about "BOFA being the shortest movie" and PJ talking about a "short and snappy thriller pace" - well, based on AUJ and DOS and LOTR and knowing what exquisite work PJ can do - there was nothing to prepare me for my first *startling* view of BOFA. Since I embargoed myself like many, all there was, was a careful PM warning me re Kili etc.
So, to this day, for me there's this uneasy sense of a mash-up between two films re BOFA. It's a director's choice to guide the narrative - but - re BOFA, for me, which has some IMO utterly spectacular and unmatchable scenes and performances - well, tho, I don't understand why PJ & co. seemed to "jog" the narrative to that degree, or why it was so important to have this rapid-fire pace, and most of all, focus on character arcs to the neglect of those we had traveled with and come to care about over two films.
Hard to argue that BOFA was a world-wide success , but - I can only hope (faintly, as PJ has also stated "he would make the movies his way") that sitting in that London theater and seeing the finished product for this first time, his brain was churning, seeing the sometimes jarring effect of the scene flow - and just maybe, maybe, the wish to see more of the dwarves, Beorn reached him; and that "overloads" of certain other things didn't work, really.
Because I also completely agree with: Because frankly, wanting focus on the Company when the story is supposed to be about Bilbo and the dwarves shouldn't be too much to ask for.
No, IMO, it should have been too much to ask for. For me it was kind of like going to see the Hunger Games, and then the film glitches and I end up seeing Fast and Furious instead . Or in this case, for me it would have been nice for perhaps some sort of brother/uncle interaction or interaction between the dwarves/Bilbo as Thorin darkens (at least we saw Balin and Dwalin for a few moment in that regard);
or Bofur perhaps thinking about taking Bombur and Bifur from Erebor - some moments of doubt; or Balin and Dwalin staring over the walls and talking about how they would die in Erebor with that massive elf army all around....
IMO what a waste of a superlative cast of dwarf actors *sigh*.
Re the OP - so, IMO, yes, we got a LOT of what we asked for and for me I need to remind myself these movies may never have happened at all, or if they did, they may not have been so very special.
I just wish PJ had remembered a bit more re the Appendices "elevating the dwarf race" (and that IMO, Thranduil wasn't depicted in the book as having such a narrow focus, really "long will I tarry, 'ere I begin this war for gold." And, oh yeah, a lot of folks REALLY wanted to see more Beorn. And that Fili was supposed to be, like, the next king and all, so maybe a few lines for him would be good.)
But re the OP, not to end on a negative note. The Hobbit will be re-made one day, but personally, I wouldn't want to be the actors trying to follow in Martin Freeman's, Ian McKellan's, Richard Armitage's, Ken Stott's, Chrisopher Lee's, and the many other notable actors' footsteps. I wouldn't want to be the next director that tries to tackle Smaug or envision Bag End, Laketown, Erebor, Ravenhill and Mirkwood.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jun 27 2015, 8:16pm
Post #13 of 28
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Well, no, I will disagree with that....
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"What are the Tolkien Fans gunna Want?"
"What SHOULD be, in this, to PLEASE Them?"
"What will they? Think is COOL.."
"What if, they don't LIKE this..?"
E.g., I am none too sure that "fan preferences" were being considered all that much - it's difficult to say. PJ & co. must have known a given arc of a well-known story would be expected by many - or did they know, for a large group of people who don't read, it didn't matter?
Because, while I am gonna guess that PJ, as an experienced director DOES have an idea of what works on FILM vs. a book - and we see both PJ and Philippa alluding to that re the dwarves for instance (having 13 "hairy little squares being visually uninteresting" and the dwarves being on screen "needing to do something") - and,
IMO like all directors, PJ was factoring in FOCUS (e.g. too many characters as "leads" being confusing for the audience) and also I believe, personal taste.
The thing is, I think on the one hand, we DO HAVE a well-known story with a complete arc to work from, and also, I do believe that the "personal taste" in this case was interjected too much into a well-known narrative that ALSO, re characters and relationships, had set up expectations of a kind, over the course of two films.
That "interjection" of personal taste for me was where issues crept in - I mean, OK, Alfrid, Legolas, Tauriel....it seems that many would have been fine with all that, even enjoyed it, if the amount of presence had been ratcheted down, in the face of a known story and set-up expectations.
I mean I LOVE Ryan Gage's Alfrid, but there's too much of him in BOFA, and it's jarring for me, to have these interjections of scenes that aren't even funny. The Legolas/Bolg thing for me never seemed to have real weight or have been built up from anything really, so for me there is an awful lot of time spent on that. Tauriel could have been a presence without affecting a key moment from the book. Fili and Beorn deserved much more time than they got, as opposed to the IMO inexplicable interactions of the elves.
I suppose the case could be made that it's director's choice - and PJ alludes to that in an interview - something about "you make something and put it out and hope that folks like it..." but even Orlando Bloom seemed to be dubious about Legolas' presence, EL thought she'd be fighting a lot more, certainly I think the dwarves thought they would be doing more, and by DOS PJ & co. would have known the Tauriel/Kili thing had had a not necessarily negative response, but it wasn't wild global approval either.
What can we say? Like anything, you put out a product - and Johnny Depp I think once accurately said "there's no such thing as a perfect movie". It's just difficult when we KNOW what incredible work PJ & co. can do - and I can't even watch the last lines of Tauriel and Thranduil - for me, I am baffled that that didn't get edited, fast, in PJ's little editing cave.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 27 2015, 11:27pm
Post #14 of 28
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"It doesn't seem like much of New Zealand was shown at all during BOTFA. The only part that stands out to me as actual scenery is the one scene on the shores of The Long Lake."
That's why he changed the name from "There and Back Again" to "Battle of 5 Armies" - because they were already there in DOS, so there wasn't anywhere new to go.
I agree that the focus on the Company was lost during BOT5A, but I also think that there was much good in the film - enough IMO to more than make up for the bad. I mean, Smaug's attack on Laketown was worth the cost of admission alone! And we still had Bilbo giving the Arkenstone away, the big confrontation between Bard, Thranduil and Thorin, the "throw him from the Ramparts" scene - which was really close to the book - and of course that incredible death of Thorin scene. I also thought the gold floor was a very clever way to express Thorin's getting over the gold sickness, and I just can't say enough about the ice fight at the end! I truly thought it was genius!
And we ended with Bilbo back in Hobbiton, interrupting the auction, and yes the Hobbit of "The Hobbit" got the last scene. Yes of course it could have been better, but overall I'm pretty happy with this Trilogy.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jun 27 2015, 11:54pm
Post #15 of 28
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Well, I do wish the battle was more similar to the book.
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I would have loved to see the armies spread out on the slopes...real slopes...as the orc army approaches....I would have liked to have seen Thorin and company fighting in the thick of it and Beorn arriving to wreak havoc. But, we have what we have. The isolated fight on the ice is ok and understandable from a movie sense of focusing on the two characters without so much "noise" going on around them. But real NZ mountain areas could have been used to greater extent.
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brotherbeck
Rivendell
Jun 28 2015, 1:59am
Post #16 of 28
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Actual Physical Locations vs Green Screen & CGI Landscapes
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I was more referring to how the battle takes place in a fully CG environment with the actors in front of green screen compared to actors being filmed out on location like for The Battle of Pellenor Fields in ROTK or the battle at the end of The Lion, The Witch & The Wardrobe. I much prefer movies shot out on actual location and think CGI should be used to enhance and expand what was shot, not to create it whole cloth from scratch. Leaning too heavily on one filmmaking trick - in this case CGI - and not mixing it up allows the seams to show. The battle itself feels oddly claustrophobic, and while it is definitely enjoyable and entertaining to watch, I never once felt like I was watching actual armies battling each other in a physical real space.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 28 2015, 9:22am
Post #17 of 28
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Most of Pellenor Fields was green screen.....
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The scenery, the surrounding hills all composited together in the computer - they talk about it on the EE documentaries. If the actors were outdoors they were only in the backlot
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 28 2015, 6:54pm
Post #18 of 28
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I didn't ask for an Elf/Dwarf romance, or Azog to be brought back from the dead...
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I did prefer the idea of a more adult-oriented Hobbit that tied better into the LotR films. I just don't think PJ had to change/invent so much to achieve that.
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brotherbeck
Rivendell
Jun 28 2015, 10:30pm
Post #19 of 28
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I know they used a lot of green screen for the Battle of Pelennor Fields, but they still mixed in a lot of footage that was was shot outside under natural sunlight in Return of the King - I'm thinking of the scene where Gandalf rides Shadowfax and chases the Nazgul away or when Faramir leads his men on the suicide charge on Osgiliath. These were scenes shot outside on location and the special effects were used to augment and enhance what was shot.
I personally feel there is just something that feels so tangible about scenes shot on location that I simply do not think they achieved with the scenes in BOTFA. It never feels like you are looking at a real physical place, which is something I miss from watching the original LOTR films. With those films you feel like they brought you to Middle Earth.
Simply compared to the scenes set in Hobbiton earlier in this same trilogy, to me the difference is night and day. I don't see why they couldn't have filmed some of the BOTFA out in an actual New Zealand location and used the CGI to enhance the backgrounds of shots and things like that. I don't know if this was a deliberate stylistic choice, or if they simply had too much on their plate and ran out of time for the release, but if you look at a film like Avatar and what Weta was capable of achieving bringing Pandora to life and making it feel real, BOTFA pales in comparison to that and that film was six years ago now.
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CathrineB
Rohan
Jun 28 2015, 10:47pm
Post #21 of 28
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I found myself missing bigatures too or whatever they called it I loved Erebor, but I can't help feeling disappointed knowing it was just plain green screen. No bigatures/miniatures. Now I realize they can't model a whole mountain, but you know. Certain places and such. How absolutely stunning and real looking wasn't Minas Tirith? And still does to this day? Erebor has a tendency to look CGI in some places - though I personally think in some places it does look good too by all means.
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jun 29 2015, 6:18am
Post #22 of 28
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Indeed, and add the Ride of the Rohirrim and the trip to the Black Gate...
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to the "outdoor/location shooting" list. I remember Viggo saying about having to avoid the mines on the NZ Army land!
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 29 2015, 8:03am
Post #23 of 28
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.. in discussing any film, since film is of its essence make believe?
If your comparison is between green screen filming and outdoor filming in natural light I would understand. Natural light and the movement of natural air has a quality and a subtlety that studio lighting and wind machines stuggle to match. But when you throw Avatar in as a comparison you lose me completely. None of Avatar was natural and none of it felt real to me. Far, far less real, in fact, than Battle of the Five Armies, though it was all very pretty to look at. The difference between the two films for me is one of artistic style - Avatar is a moving comic book and BotFA a moving watercolour illustration. Both are realised with equal skill, each one is a remarkable achievement in its own way. Neither is real unless you as audience buy into it.
And if we're comparing BotFA with Lord of the Rings, then I'm beginning to think that the perception that BotFA is all green screen is taking over from the reality. As someone pointed out, Dale was a real set in a real location; what we see in Dale is filmed outdoors, with or without digital additions. It's no different in that sense from Minas Tirith, and Dale too was a glorious set, made with precisely the same care, skill and attention to detail.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jun 29 2015, 11:30am
Post #24 of 28
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http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?
This is a very interesting thread begun by Guillermo Del Toro after they had completed the treatment framework in the spring of 2009. All four writers created this treatment and as soon as it was signed off they began casting and writing the screen play. What makes this thread of great interest and the Empire article in particular is you can see the seeds of the outcome on the question of tone. Ainurolorin one of our most respected contributors writes with great prescience about the challenge of matching the grave geo political framework and the necromancer sub plot with their commitment to include all the original beats from the book.
I alos found GDT remarks about the way the Dwarves would be treated most illuminating. As they hadn't written the script at that point they hadn't encountered the issue of a two tier Dwarven company where at least six or seven dwarves were left undeveloped like the 11 in the book.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jun 29 2015, 11:32am)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 29 2015, 12:21pm
Post #25 of 28
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But Erebor as well, and Laketown. There wasn't the Lake nor the mountain, but we had more than bigatures : large sets very finely crafted, only the far backgrounds being digitalised.
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Exactly my sentiments
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