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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 25 2015, 5:16pm
Post #1 of 33
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Another thought on why it took the Laketown 4 so long
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A while back there was a post asking why it took Fili & Kili so long to get to Erebor, based on Bilbo's saying Thorin "has been down there for days." I re-watched DOS last night, and in the scene in Bard's house Thorin says something like "the last days of Autumn begin tomorrow," and then Balin says "And Durin's Day falls the day after." Well I'd never caught that before, but it implies that the Company that left for Erebor had at least TWO days, not just one. So, they set out from Laketown on the "last day of Autumn," make it to the shore, probably set up camp for the night, and arrive on the Overlook about mid-morning on Durin's Day.
So that means the Laketown 4 should follow the same timeline, EXCEPT that they may be moving slower due to Kili's injury (and possibly Oin's age). Another thought that occurred to me is, they didn't start out in the middle of the lake like Thorin & Company did, but off of the nearest shore, so the distance across the lake could have been longer, taking more time. The Laketown survivors would have made for the closest shore, which could have been farther from Erebor. And I don't know how long it took them to walk to Dale, to be honest it appears they made the trip in one day but we can't always go by movie time.
Anyway, the Dwarves needing at least two days to get to Erebor makes more sense, though I'm not sure how many days they needed in the book. On a related note, I do remember that ultimately Bofur was left behind in the book, because Bombur couldn't climb the mountain and Bofur wouldn't leave his brother behind - a sentiment echoed by Fili in Laketown. Yes I know Bofur & Bomber were at the mountain and not Laketown, but still some were left behind. Fili chose to stay with his brother, just like Bofur did in the book. An example of Dwarvish loyalty to family that is echoed in that tragic ending that I hate so much
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien
Jun 25 2015, 5:26pm
Post #2 of 33
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Yeah, the distance would be longer. If you look towards the ruins after the BoTFA title disappears, the Lonely Mountain is behind the ruins. So that would mean they went to the shore farther away from Erebor. There are many factors that go into this though, we don't know how fast dwarves travel or how hard/easier it will be to get through obstacles, how they react to heat or the cold while climbing. Will they get tired and stop? If they intended to go quickly or slowly?
I also believe that Bofur's actor left the set for a TV show, so they had to change his part in the movie? I'm not entirely sure about that though. This is a nice reflection though, I realized another one in the Fall of Gondolin. During the Fall of Gondolin, the people of Gondolin poured molten metals on the dragons to delay and stop them.
Off-topic: There are many ways to get out of Laketown, did some people possibly go to other shores, while most came to the one that is shone in the movie?
"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."
(This post was edited by Hobbity Hobbit on Jun 25 2015, 5:28pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 25 2015, 6:05pm
Post #3 of 33
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On the morning they set out from Laketown, Balin says, “We have to, if we’re to find the door before nightfall. We can risk no more delays".
So it's just the one day.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 25 2015, 6:16pm
Post #4 of 33
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"Durin's Day falls the morn after next."
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Aye, that's what Balin says. We seem to have a contradiction when the company is preparing to leave Lake-town, presumably the following morning, when we have the following exchange:
BILBO: You do know we're one short. Where's Bofur?
THORIN: If he's not here, we leave him behind.
BALIN: We'll have to, if we're to find the door before nightfall...
We seem to lose a day between the raid on the armory and the company's departure, with no explanation.
Anyway, the Dwarves needing at least two days to get to Erebor makes more sense, though I'm not sure how many days they needed in the book. On a related note, I do remember that ultimately Bofur was left behind in the book, because Bombur couldn't climb the mountain and Bofur wouldn't leave his brother behind - a sentiment echoed by Fili in Laketown.
It took them three days to reach the Mountain in the book (the first part by boat and the rest of the way by pony), and days more to find the Secret Door. No one was left behind, but Bofur and Bombur were left with the ponies until after Bilbo brought up the cup from Smaug's hoard. At that point the two were hauled up to the Doorstep by rope and the company hid in the tunnel while Smaug searched for them and chased down some of the ponies.
It makes sense that it might take the Lake-town Four some extra time to reach Erebor as they were tired and had injured among them. I do agree that it should have taken Thorin and the others at least two days to reach the Lonely Mountain; it would have been a journey of around 30 miles and they would have been hard-pressed to cover even 20 miles in a single day under the conditions which they were traveling. The contradictory dialogue in the Lake-town scenes is...unfortunate.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 25 2015, 6:20pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 25 2015, 6:43pm
Post #5 of 33
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Unless it is an unusual use of the term "falls".
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But probably just an error.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 25 2015, 6:51pm
Post #6 of 33
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One of the lines seem like an error.
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I do wonder if something was lost during rewrites. A two-day journey for the company would have been more reasonable and realistic. I wonder if someone thought that the audience wouldn't understand if Kili was able to hold on for an additional day (with the Orcs underestimating the endurance of Dwarves); or if Peter Jackson just felt it was necessary to intercut Bolg's raid in Lake-town with Bilbo and the company under the Mountain, even if the two events were not originally intended to take place at the same time.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 25 2015, 6:52pm)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 25 2015, 7:11pm
Post #7 of 33
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Balin's line may have been an error of him
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Basically, you can't have the length of the trip from Esgaroth to Dale depending on one fellow's sentence.
Balin in the movie was not exempt of faulty sentences.
For instance in Rivendell he asked Thorin not to tell anything, but forgot almost immediately about it when he spoke about 'the right moment & the right place'
Balin is pessimistic in the core, he always anticipates failures to come, even if it's not clearly grounded.
So he could be anticipating that one minute lost three days before would be a minute lost on the due time, even if the dwarves spent all the night before feasting among men.
Thorin had other reasons to get over Bofur out ot the way. I think he knew, or felt, that Bofur isn't the most reliable of his followers : he saw him talking to Bilbo when Bilbo was leaving and Bofur let Bilbo go without alerting.
In fact Bofur will do the same when Bilbo leaves Erebor to give the Arkenstone to Bard. And for Thorin, absolute loyalty is a must.
Balin couldn't understood that motive, so he guessed some other (wrong and pessimistic) explanation.
(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Jun 25 2015, 7:17pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 25 2015, 7:17pm
Post #8 of 33
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Is inherently more realistic than the other - we aren't working to any particular distances in the film.
But otherwise one would assume the apparent error emerged during a redraft of one scene or the other, as you say.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 25 2015, 7:26pm
Post #9 of 33
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The only way to reconcile those two lines is to assume Balin meant "before nightfall of Durin's Day," but just left out Durin's Day. Even with two days they still couldn't risk any more delays, they were on a tight deadline.
I won't call it "bad scripting," but it was a definite boo-boo.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 25 2015, 7:36pm
Post #10 of 33
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I do wish they'd explained that better
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I'm pretty sure Bofur was just hung over (and yeah, the actor had to leave for awhile, but still...), but Thorin was willing to cut his own nephew loose, so no he's not going to wait for Bofur to sober up. I really think that's all there is to it.
I actually don't think Balin was interested in the Quest at all, he tried to talk Thorin out of it in Bag End and he was the first to want to walk away when it appeared they'd lost the light. He was there out of loyalty to Thorin, but clearly had misgivings all along. You're right about Rivendell, I'd forgotten all about that.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 25 2015, 7:41pm
Post #11 of 33
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Well, I assume that the distances in the book and the films at least roughly approximate each other. But even if we say that the distance between Lake-town and Erebor is only twenty miles (or less!), the company isn't traveling in a straight line and in the film they don't even have ponies. And, on top of that, they are lucky enough to locate the Hidden Door almost immediately upon arrival.
I think we have some experienced hikers here. How long should it take to cover 20 to 30 miles, about half by rowboat and the rest on foot (without good roads)? Two or thee days sounds right to me.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 25 2015, 7:44pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 25 2015, 7:49pm
Post #12 of 33
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Basically, you can't have the length of the trip from Esgaroth to Dale depending on one fellow's sentence.
Except that we are talking more about the day when Durin's Day occurs more than how long it will take them to reach the Mountain. We go from two days before Durin's Day to the morning of Durin's Day, somehow losing an entire day in-between. No one in the company disputes what Balin says so we have to take it as intended as accurate when the lines were written.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 25 2015, 8:09pm
Post #14 of 33
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As ever (!) I wouldn't share the principle
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That everything is as per the detail of the books unless explicitly stated otherwise. I would assume only what the films tell or show us - in this case I don't think we have much of a steer on distance beyond what we might roughly judge by eye.
Equally, you are probably being rather pessimistic on the hiking time. A good hiker could manage 20 miles in a day and the rowing boat would probably be considerably faster than that walking pace again.
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Jun 25 2015, 8:16pm)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 25 2015, 8:12pm
Post #15 of 33
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Neither Radagast nor Balin are senile IMO
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Balin is pessimistic, but Radagast carries no pessimism at all.
There was a hiding spell (an illusion ?) on Dol Guldur. Radagast didn't feel it, but Gandalf did.
Not all the magicians share the same abilities (not only in Advanced D&D, but also in Tolkien's books)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 25 2015, 8:23pm
Post #16 of 33
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Yes Balin is reluctant about the quest, but
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He also comes each time over-excited about the secret gate. He's versatile, almost bi-polarized
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 25 2015, 8:26pm
Post #17 of 33
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As the four Dwarves took two days to reach Erebor's entrance
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There's no reason to believe that Thorin and Co took only one day for the same trip, is there ?
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 25 2015, 8:31pm
Post #18 of 33
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The reason to believe it took a day is the line spoken as they leave Laketown - that they need to find the door by nightfall.
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 25 2015, 8:37pm
Post #19 of 33
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Balin has such an obsession about that day
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That he won't think for any other explanation about Bofur
He doesn't know about Thorin's motivation and Thorin won't tell about it : Thorin will show his ability to trust nobody, even his own companions.
That gap between them two will grow larger further on
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 25 2015, 8:39pm
Post #20 of 33
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I know, Spriggan, that you approach the films with a degree of skepticism. The films do essentially use Tolkien's maps of Middle-earth, but we don't get a scale for Jackson's version. But we do get hints here and there.
At the Eaves of Mirkwood, Gandalf's description of the size of Mirkwood echoes his words in the book. BILBO: Is there no way around?
GANDALF: Not unless we go 200 miles north. Or twice that distance...south.
That goes a long way to confirming that we are using roughly the same scale. Even Tolkien sometimes intentionally avoided putting distances in terms of miles or leagues (such as the distance between Weathertop and the Misty Mountains; Strider would only say that he could walk it in two weeks time).
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 25 2015, 8:43pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 25 2015, 8:41pm
Post #21 of 33
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There's no reason to believe that Thorin and Co took only one day for the same trip, is there ?
Yes. Balin, when the company is preparing to leave Lake-town, specifically states that they have to find the Hidden Door before sundown of that very day, the implication being that it was already the morning of Durin's Day.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 25 2015, 8:49pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 25 2015, 8:49pm
Post #22 of 33
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That he won't think for any other explanation about Bofur
He doesn't know about Thorin's motivation and Thorin won't tell about it : Thorin will show his ability to trust nobody, even his own companions.
I really think that you are ascribing more paranoia to Thorin than he actually deserves--at least at that point in the story. He doesn't become that bad until after the company reaches Erebor and Smaug is dead.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 25 2015, 8:57pm
Post #23 of 33
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How does that impact on Balin saying they have to reach the door by nightfall?
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 25 2015, 9:39pm
Post #24 of 33
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It could be nightfall for the next day
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Balin is just reminding the dead-end line.
Once again, there is no need to shorten a two-days trip in a one-day trip, only for speculations about one sentence.
In the book as well as for the 4 dwarves trip, they count several days (at least 2)
Maybe Ken Stott (the actor) didn't know the trip had to take two days, and they all just forgot about it.
Then you have nothing else than a bug.
Why not that ?
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 25 2015, 9:52pm
Post #25 of 33
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But it seems a bit odd to be so puzzled at using a script line as information about what happens!
It must be said that it would be an equally unusual English usage to be referring to nightfall on another day.
I would be somewhat tempted by the circumstantial view that the narrative is seeking to build urgency and pressure of time in seeking the door (and the happenstance that no night or next morning scenes happen to intervene)
The fact that the other group, with an injured member, travelled slower doesn't seem all that helpful by comparison.
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