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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 25 2015, 11:22pm
Post #26 of 33
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Your previous post that Spriggan was referencing was about leaving Bofur behind and didn't seem to have anything to do with the topic. That was where part of the confusion came in. It read like a reply posted to the wrong thread.
I see no reason to assume that the line about arriving at the Mountain by nightfall was an improvisation as opposed to being in the script. It seemed very deliberate to me. Now it might have been a last-minute edition to add urgency to the film; but, if so then I think that it was an ill-considered change. Either way we skip over the bulk of the actual journey and just see the company leave Lake-town and arrive at the Desolation of the Dragon. Why introduce an unnecessary inconsistency that harms the internal logic of the film? Now, if Balin had actually said, "We'll have to, if we're to find the door before nightfall tomorrow." then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 25 2015, 11:30pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 25 2015, 11:36pm
Post #27 of 33
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In fairness, the urgency works well
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From a narrative viewpoint so I would be advocating a change to the earlier line in Bard's house, myself.
It's also, we should say, not a very noticeable gaffe in the grand scheme of things - one would have to have very sharp ears to clock it, if it wasn't pointed out.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 25 2015, 11:45pm
Post #28 of 33
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I think that familiarity with the book also makes the pair of lines stand out, particularly the departing one. Peter Jackson is already condensing weeks into a handful of days; I'm not sure that we needed even more urgency than that.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 26 2015, 1:53am
Post #29 of 33
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... is the fact that Jimmy Nesbitt had to be there in Laketown for extra-hobbit reasons :
1) He had professional engagements which prevented him to be in Erebor fighting Smaug
2) He had two daughters on stage in Laketown, fighting orcs. So that's where a father had to be.
Given those circumstances, I think they may have put the Thorin/Balin dialog on the spot in order to explain why Bofur wasn't helping in Erebor.
At the moment the line was written (shooting for DOS), they may not have thought about the length of the trip from Esgaroth to Dale/Erebor, and if they remembered this after the shooting, the scene was already shot.
Only further they thought about the two-days trip (shooting for BOTFA) and explain that Thorin wasn't sleeping and eating for two days instead of one.
Kili was no more ill when he left Laketown, so he didn't slow the four.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 26 2015, 4:41am
Post #30 of 33
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I'm aware of James Nesbitt's personal situation that required him to be off-set for a time. It was the idea of other, unsaid motives on Thorin's part for leaving Bofur behind that I was objecting to (an idea originating on another thread--perhaps from a different poster?).
To me, Bilbo's line about Thorin suggested that he had not eaten or slept for at least three days, 'though it could have been as little as two.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 26 2015, 5:43am
Post #31 of 33
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Relation between Thorin and Bofur
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...has been explored before on another thread if I remember.
Somebody (I don't remember who) developped there the idea that Thorin's decision about Bofur was on purpose inside the story.
I personally didn't buy it at once because I thought the main reasons were off-stage.
Re-thinking about it, I remember that Thorin saw and heared Bilbo and Bofur speaking together just before they fell into Goblintown
The fact is Bofur took a decision on his own about the Hobbit, and didn't turn towards Thorin.
At that moment, Thorin had some time before expressed loudly that Bilbo was a burden for the dwarves, so Bofur wasn't really showing disloyalty,
and Thorin himself didn't stood up to ask Bilbo to stay with them.
By the way, if Bofur wasn't among the dwarves embarking to Erebor, Thorin could have many reasons not to wait for him.
1) Thorin would surely not show to Laketowners any kind of Bofur-dependance, staying and waiting for one dwarf.
2) Thorin wanted to leave Laketown at any rate, no losing time to search for the secret gate
3) Thorin knew that he will leave at least one other dwarf back : Kili. So he could consider that Bofur might help him. Which Bofur did.
To summarize, we're not really shoe-horned to speculate that Thorin did want Bofur back at any rate.
As well, if Bofur would have been on the boat, Bofur would have gone with the others.
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Cirashala
Valinor
Jul 28 2015, 4:59am
Post #32 of 33
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Kili IS still injured a bit.
You see him limping and clutching his leg as he races to the boat in Laketown (has to be helped in by Fili).
You see him limping up the mountain during the traveling shots and moving slowly and stiffly as though he hurts (and Fili frequently glances back at him).
You see him clutch his leg and pause for a second as though in pain as he's running down the stairs after Bilbo when Bilbo tells them Thorin's gone mad (right after they arrive).
He seems better in the leg as the duration in Erebor wears on, but he is still injured on the trip up there.
Another possibility to note is that the Laketown four may not have known the exact trail to get up to Erebor. I know that book and movie don't agree exactly on ages when Erebor fell, but it is certainly possible that Oin may not have been there, or may have forgotten the path. Fili would likely have been educated in it- and indeed he was leading the group (probably believing he was king at this point, and that Thorin had been barbecued). Bofur wouldn't have known the route at ALL, and Kili might have, but he was hurt and his personality is such that he tends to yield to Fili if Fili knows something he doesn't. But Fili and Kili had never actually SEEN the route for themselves- just maps at best.
Also, they didn't land on the same shore as Thorin's half would have, due to the destruction and the ruin of Laketown and the exit route they had to take to get out of the city. None of the four may have known the route from the shore they landed on to the mountain. They may not have landed on the same beach as Thorin and co did a day prior, which would have also added to their time. And once on the shore, the Mountain wouldn't have been visible over the foothills for a fair portion of their hike upwards from the shoreline (I have lived around mountains for over half my life and live among the Rocky Mountain foothills in the United States now for almost 8 years- even a tall mountain is masked from your view when you are standing at the bottom of a good sized foothill in front of it). So there's a chance that, rather than heading directly to the mountain as a bird would fly, they ended up winding their way up the hills (both because they may have lost their direction a couple times, and also because Kili may not have been able to handle steeper grades). And windy roads are ALWAYS at least twice as long as straight ones, if not thrice that!
So yeah- I can definitely see the Laketown four taking twice, if not three times the time to get up there.
Plus we don't know exactly when they left the destruction on the lake shore. It's assumed that it was the morning after the attack (which I will point out seems to have happened just after dusk), as hypothermia would have killed everyone still in the water had it been later (I'm surprised so many people were still alive in the water even in the morning, as fast as hypothermia sets in). So you have an entire night possibly dedicated to rowing from the destroyed city to the shore, which is a sizeable distance if you're trying to run away from a dragon and rowing as fast as possible once you're out of town.
The Laketown four are decent dwarves. They were obviously quite worried about their kin, but it was likely their kin may not have survived. Fili and Kili and Oin ALL fought off the orcs and protected Bard's kids. And they are dwarves of honor. They may have stayed a day or two to help the citizens of Laketown stabilize and to procure enough supplies (which I'm positive were in high demand as they didn't have much to salvage) to survive the trip. That boat had more than just dwarves in it. Makes me wonder if there had been a "just take it and leave" attitude, or if they had left immediately or risk being run out of town, such that it was, due to their kin's involvement in upsetting the dragon....
The delay of several days is quite possible, and definitely probable, when one considers the evidence listed above 
(This post was edited by Cirashala on Jul 28 2015, 5:00am)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jul 28 2015, 6:45am
Post #33 of 33
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I don't think the four took more time than the nine
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... Maybe a little bit on the lake while paddling, because four has less strength than nine, but finding the road to Erebor mustn't have been a problem at all, as Dale is an important city not far from the water. Even after years, there must have stayed visible quays left along the shore and a visible road up from there.
Kili may be still limping, but he has been cured magically, and when we see the four entering Erebor from above, all of them are walking fast, almost running.
Plus, they didn't have to wait much on the shores near Laketown, for they just had to go and see if their kin is still alive as fast as they could. All they did have to do about that was asking for a boat : Bard the new leader of the town wasn't a man to delay their demand, because he certainly learned that the dwarves had fought their best to save his own children.
All put in one, if the four took two days to get to Erebor Gate near Dale, the nine had to take two days or even more to get on the western slopes of Mount Erebor and find the secret entrance : in the book they had to camp several days for their search, and Thorin says that they have 'food', which means they could take time to cook.
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