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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 24 2015, 2:28pm
Post #1 of 69
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My thoughts on the Confederate flag
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Well, hopefully this topic won't create the Firestorm that one of my other political posts kicked off, but it could happen, so brace yourselves!
I live in Oklahoma, and at one time the Confederate Flag did fly over this state. At the time it was called Indian Territory, and there's no doubt that most of the mixed-blood American Indians that lived here at the time fully supported the South. (The full-bloods tended to think it was a White Man's war.) In fact, the only American Indian General in the American Civil War was a Cherokee named Stand Waite, who served in the Confederate Army. Now I don't want to get into what the American Civil War was all about (State's rights, slavery, trade with England, some combo?), this is about the Confederate flag, Southern heritage, and what is appropriate in this day and age.
There have historically been 14 flags over the modern state of Oklahoma, which includes Spain, England, France, Mexico, Texas, the Confederate Flag and the United States of America flag - several versions of that one. As part of our history all of those flags flew on flag poles around the State Capital for about 22 years, but then the Confederate flag was removed in 1988. And I kind of have mixed feelings about that. On the one hand, most (if not all) Black Oklahomans are offended by it, and I can understand that completely, but on the other hand it's just as big a part of our history as the Spanish & Mexican flags are. I don't think we should avoid our history just because it's ugly, and yes Oklahoma had some pretty awful segregation laws at one time. But I suppose if a fair amount of your State citizens want the flag to come down, then it needs to come down. A few days ago there was a mass shooting in a Black church by a White gunman in South Carolina, historically the first state to secede from the Union in 1861, which started the American Civil War. South Carolina also flies the Confederate flag at its capital, as a part of their history and Southern Heritage. And I do see that flag in Oklahoma as well, on bumper stickers, some clothing, and even the flag itself displayed on some people's property, and they all say that same bit about "Southern Heritage" and pride.
Well here's my take on that: WHY would anyone want to display the flag of the LOSERS??? Okay, the South LOST, they got their butts kicked by the North! That's what I think of every time I see that flag, I think of Losers! Maybe that's appropriate. As far as Southern Heritage & Pride go, well I can think of lots of other ways to show my Southern Pride - how about a Lynard Skinard flag? Or ZZ Top? How 'bout a Dallas Cowboys flag (yeah, this from an Okie, hehe), or an OKC Thunder flag? You want Heritage, how 'bout New Orleans jazz, Nashville & Elvis? Or fried okra and watermelon? NASCAR even - these are the things I think of when I think of Southern pride! After this recent tragedy South Carolina is finally considering taking down that flag - about time, IMO - and I think we can definitely recognize our history and celebrate our Souther Pride without using a symbol that is so offensive to so many Americans. And I'm sure that if we think about it, we can come up with a replacement for that flag that doesn't scream "LOSER", if we want to.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Jun 24 2015, 4:09pm
Post #2 of 69
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For those interested, the flag generally known as the "Confederate" flag was not even the official flag of the Confederacy. It was actually the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia (the main Confederate force).
I'm a bit of history buff, and I especially love the history of the Civil War. If anybody's interested in a really great book depicting the Civil War, I highly recommend Michael Shaara's Pulitzer Prize winning novel "The Killer Angels". It details the battle of Gettysburg from the point of view of several of the military commanders on both sides. It's the book the film "Gettysburg" was based on.
As for the current controversy about the flag, I definitely don't think it should be flown on any government building (it's a symbol of a failed revolution against our country after all). But otherwise, it's a free country and people can do what they want.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Jun 24 2015, 4:10pm)
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Annael
Immortal
Jun 24 2015, 7:59pm
Post #4 of 69
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but I think only a Southerner could have posted it 
I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.
-- Gaston Bachelard
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NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 24 2015, 8:06pm
Post #5 of 69
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It could be argued (and I realize that this is a slippery argument in light of the First Amendment) that flying the Confederate Battle Flag in modern times could be considered to be a treasonous act or an act of sedition. There is also the matter of the flag being displayed by the state as opposed to a private individual, which might be the more significant issue.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor
Jun 24 2015, 8:28pm
Post #6 of 69
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We've been discussing this at home.
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I never really saw it as a symbol of racism even though some racists have adopted it, and have never had a problem with it being displayed in a historical context or with private citizens using it in a family history context. Flying it over a seat of government, however, has never felt right to me, because it is a symbol of division/separatism/secession/rebellion, etc. and the ideology of a failed cause, not of a union of states. I've been told often enough by southerners that there are too many people down there who are still bitter about the fact that their side lost the War, and that real "southern pride" is based on the best characteristics of the people and the beauty around them rather than the kind of southern pride which often finds that flag an appropriate symbol of its cultural identity. The southerners I talk with are not defined by that flag or what it once represented, and they don't want to be perceived as having that kind of mentality. The Stars and Stripes can fittingly honor the veterans of both sides, because their sacrifices and service in the defense of their beliefs is what made us the nation that we are, and that nation should be united. It needs to be united. There are better ways to honor the dead and one's cultural pride than by stubbornly clinging to an old symbol of separation which is dividing the hearts of the people all over the nation to this day. That's my opinion.
Full disclosure: I have had family in the Gettysburg area for many generations. Those who experienced the Confederate occupation of their town or village usually spoke well of the men in gray. It wasn't personal, and neither side wanted to make it so. There were jokes and puns exchanged, as well as some, uh, tokens of southern affection which still get passed down through families around here. Not so much in Chambersburg, but there is still great admiration for those who had the strength of character to disobey orders even if only for a little while. There is still more in common between us than a certain historic Line would lead some to believe. =)
**********************************
NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011
(This post was edited by Eowyn of Penns Woods on Jun 24 2015, 8:36pm)
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jun 24 2015, 9:56pm
Post #7 of 69
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...that if someone says that it stands for their heritage, then I don't get to insist that it doesn't.
Symbols and symbolism are personal, and I don't get to interpret them for anyone but myself.
And I sure as heck don't get to make other people stop using them because I find them offensive.
"Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it."
--Joyce Meyer
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP
--Leonard Nimoy
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zarabia
Tol Eressea
Jun 24 2015, 11:06pm
Post #8 of 69
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I find the flag extremely offensive, and not just because it's the flag of losers
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It's offensive for what it represents which is white supremacy and hate. Individuals may sincerely see it as family history and heritage, but I don't understand why anyone would be proud of that history. I have family who fought on both sides of the war, but I take no pride at all in the fact that any of my ancestors fought to retain the right to own fellow human beings.
I think it was Squire (in a previous thread that dealt with similar issues) who made some good points about not judging people of a different era by modern standards, but, the fact is, that flag has been a symbol of white supremacy since the Civil War. If individuals want to display the flag, whether it's misguided family pride or pure racism, that's his/her right, but it should have been taken down from government buildings long ago.
I'm in not feeling well and don't feel up to going into the matter further, but this article echoes my feelings.
http://www.vox.com/...-charleston-shooting
You realize that life goes fast
It's hard to make the good things last
You realize the sun doesn't go down
It's just an illusion caused by the world spinning 'round
~Do You Realize?, The Flaming Lips
(This post was edited by zarabia on Jun 24 2015, 11:17pm)
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Jun 25 2015, 12:42am
Post #9 of 69
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The confederate flag in Brazil
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Slightly off subject maybe, but interesting - here is something that popped up on the news today - a piece of American history I had never heard of. A slightly different point of view of the Confederate flag as a symbol of heritage:
http://www.bbc.com/...d-us-canada-33245800
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 25 2015, 7:55am
Post #10 of 69
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...to the extent that all of us agree to follow the laws that govern a civil society. Freedom is not the same as anarchy.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 25 2015, 7:59am
Post #11 of 69
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Actually, more recently than that.
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As has been noted, it was never an official flag of the Confederacy. It was resurrected from the dustbin of history in the 1950's as a symbol of resistance against racial integration. As such, it has no "glorious heritage" and should go back to the dustbin.
I am white, and was born in North Carolina and grew up in Virginia, by the way.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 25 2015, 8:04am
Post #12 of 69
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Pretty recent heritage, actually.
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As I noted above, this was a battle flag used by some divisions, and never an official flag of the Confederacy. It was revived in the 1950's as a symbol of resistance against integration. Frankly, that's still what it is.
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Moahunter
Rohan
Jun 25 2015, 9:28am
Post #13 of 69
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The flag is on the ground being danced on.
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How ironic is that?
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 25 2015, 2:14pm
Post #14 of 69
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I just learned that this week.
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That use of the Confederate flag is recent, and started to appear in the 1950s and 1960s, at the same time that Civil Rights became more prominent. So while many people now see it as a reminder of their heritage, the flag was meant to protest giving rights to minorities.
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jun 25 2015, 2:14pm
Post #15 of 69
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Still not my place to tell other people how to interpret it.
"Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it."
--Joyce Meyer
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP
--Leonard Nimoy
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Jun 25 2015, 2:52pm
Post #16 of 69
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My first instinct is to agree with your statement since I like personal freedom, but the problem is that not all symbols are personal. Symbols are often adopted by a groups - nations, clubs, organizations, etc. - and then their symbols becomes very intertwined with their actions in the minds of other people.
Last summer a cult group flew a plane over New York that had a swastika intertwined with the Star of David on a banner flowing behind it. Needless to say, it caused quite a ruckus and a lot of outrage. Their stated purpose was to re-introduce the original meaning of the swastika as an ancient religious symbol but the public wasn't buying it - people just saw it as a Nazi emblem. I guess my point is that once a group adopts a symbol and deliberately uses it in conjunction with their actions then other people will always make that connection.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 25 2015, 3:17pm
Post #17 of 69
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...that if someone says that it stands for their heritage, then I don't get to insist that it doesn't.
It is fair to point out what else the Confederate battle flag has come to represent: Segregation, racism and defiance of Federal authority.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Annael
Immortal
Jun 25 2015, 3:56pm
Post #18 of 69
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which is quite recent. For centuries, Biblical scholars were pretty united on the idea that one cannot and should not take the Bible literally (one of the "Fundamentals" proposed at a Presbyterian conference in the US in 1910), but as metaphor.
I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.
-- Gaston Bachelard
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NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Annael
Immortal
Jun 25 2015, 4:00pm
Post #19 of 69
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so what WOULD be a symbol of being from the Old South?
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Mint juleps? Magnolias? Mockingbirds?
Mockingbirds . . . . whoa. Is "Hunger Games" all an allegory for how the North treated the South after the war, written from the perspective of a Southerner? The author was born in Connecticut according to Wikipedia, but moved around a lot & went to college in Alabama . . . hmmm.
(tongue only slightly in cheek)
I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.
-- Gaston Bachelard
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
(This post was edited by Annael on Jun 25 2015, 4:01pm)
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RosieLass
Valinor
Jun 25 2015, 4:17pm
Post #20 of 69
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We all get to decide for ourselves what the symbols mean to us.
And be offended by them, if we want to.
But NOT to make other people conform to our opinions and be offended by the same things we're offended by.
"Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it."
--Joyce Meyer
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP
--Leonard Nimoy
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 25 2015, 4:25pm
Post #21 of 69
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Our government does not allow hate speech, or symbols that are derogatory toward women, or minorities. I can't have a license plate that says I H8.... whatever. For the same reason, some of the states have recently decided that the Confederate flag is a hate symbol, and should not be allowed.
Any person can fly the flag on their private property, but some states have now declared that the flag is not appropriate for the government. No one is telling anyone that their opinions must conform, or who should be offended by what.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 25 2015, 5:27pm
Post #22 of 69
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when I think of Southern Heritage/Pride, that flag doesn't even register.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 25 2015, 5:31pm
Post #23 of 69
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but questioning why should be okay - I mean, I live in Oklahoma and see that flag on bumper stickers, and I've seriously got to question the logic of ANYONE who would do that out of some sense of Heritage/Pride, for reasons I've already stated. It's kind of like how some (not all) Black Americans use a variation of the "N" word, and I truly don't know why they would call themselves that - kind of like me calling myself or refering to my lady friends as S--ts or W---es. I mean, WHY???
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien
Jun 25 2015, 5:53pm
Post #24 of 69
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My cousin tells me about some of these things...
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He doesn't live in Oklahoma (he lives in New Jersey), but I'm guessing it might be similar to what he talks about. Apparently the "N" word is an insult, but so is "White" in his school (for all races). There is so much racism that is overlooked, some of these people see it as funny, but it isn't. My cousin is multiracial, but most assume he has ancestry from Northern Europe (which he is 50%, but he has a lot more than ancestry too), so he gets somewhat offended about racism because no matter who it's targeted to, it affects him because he has ancestry from most countries. I think Racism in the U.S. is slightly weird, once you get out of the U.S., people who are considered the same race here, are considered different "peoples" outside of the U.S. Like you might see some racism between English and Scots, but they're both what Americans call "white".
I think what is going on is that racism and words is being slightly changed and twisted in social life, and it's being hidden underneath the culture norms. It's the same with other words that are supposed to mean something bad. Many people don't know what words mean, like there is one word that refers to people with people with mental disorders (I wish there was another word for that, because it implies that there is something wrong with them) that people use as an insult.
"Obviously the idea of being human is a very human idea."
-Dominic Monaghan
(This post was edited by Hobbity Hobbit on Jun 25 2015, 5:57pm)
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Altaira
Superuser
Jun 25 2015, 6:54pm
Post #25 of 69
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The Federal governement *does* allow
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hate speech by and large as part of the 1st amendment.
I was listening to a piece related to this on the radio yesterday. There are many websites, newsletters, popular songs, etc. that are full of racism, derogatory terms for women and races. How is the Confederate flag any different? Going strictly by the 1st amendment, I don't think it is. Yes, individual states can try to tone things down somewhat, like forbidding certain license plates, but they're walking a fine line if they do.
The Confederate flag may have been resurrected after the civil war, but it *has* become a symbol of heritage for many in the south, just as it has become a symbol of racism and oppression for many others. Who's right? I think they both are, because it's a matter of opinion, not facts. That's why this is such a difficult problem to solve.
In the end, flying the flag on state property doesn't violate any laws. The question then becomes one of doing what's 'right.' In this case, because the flag is still available to people to display anywhere else, my own personal opinion aligns with yours: that the right thing to do is not to fly it at the state capitol because, rightly or wrongly, it gives the impression to many people, including its own citizens, that the state of South Carolina condones the negative connotation of the flag.
Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.
"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower
"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase
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