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Macfeast
Rohan
Jun 25 2015, 11:00am
Post #51 of 65
(670 views)
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It isn't humorous... but everything that has been said about a long beard for Thorin being distracting and dangling about in a potentially humorous and silly way, feels to me like it should apply to Fíli's moustache as well. Thus, when people don't seem to mind Fíli's moustache and its dangling, when they don't find it humorous and distracting... that suggests to me that a long beard for Thorin might have worked as well.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Jun 25 2015, 11:02am)
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Morwenn
The Shire
Jun 25 2015, 11:55am
Post #52 of 65
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what I was trying to say is that when someone makes a movie, the task is to communicate a great amount of what you want to get across VISUALLY. Not in the dialogue, not in explaining scenes like flahbacks and prologues. The visual signal has to be there always.
Imagine a, let's say, action/crime movie in which the bad guy looks totally friendly and normal. There is a prologue to explain that he is actually a bad guy and there is dialogue to show that he is actually a bad guy. But throughout he looks just nice and friendly.
Would that work?
No, it wouldn't. 80% of directors would go for a look which signals visually BAD GUY. This can be executed in different ways, from over-the-top looks like "big huge muscular guy, with a shaven had and horrible scars in his face, dressed all in black leather" to a more toned-down "let the actor look grumpy and dye his hair a darker colour and then let him give a really mad look now and again.". But there would be a great consideration given to the looks of the bad guy to get across what he is without explanations.
I'd say to visually communicate Thorin as Thror's grandson (=young), Fili+Kili's uncle (=older but not a granddad), and a hero of the story, the "sexy short beard look" might equal the blunt "shaven head scarred guy in black leather", but the principle is the same. It is a visual definition of the character, which can't be replaced by prologues or dialogue, it stays the same throughout the movie.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 25 2015, 1:49pm
Post #53 of 65
(638 views)
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but I don't think I'd have been NEARLY as drawn to Thorin if he'd looked like that. The only one I'd say was okay and in keeping with Tolkien was the fourth braided look. The third one is absolutely gross - makes him look Amish.
Now that's MY King Under the Mountain!
Of course, another problem with this sort of thing is, I've already seen three movies of short-beard Thorin, so I think that (for me at least) even if I DIDN'T have this ridiculous crush on him, the shorter beard is already fixed in my brain. It's like originally Ken Stott was going to have Oin's hair & beard, but somewhere along the line PJ decided to flip that. Now I can't imagine I would like Balin with that bee-stinger look, he's the Badass Santa of the bunch with that lovely white flowing beard - and I definitely DON'T have a crush on him, sorry
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jun 25 2015, 3:11pm
Post #54 of 65
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Re Fili's 'stache beads - it's idly floated across my mind - especially at Bag End where he presumably was eating - whether they kind of annoyed him - I mean you sort of would have this miniature pendulum effect, I would imagine, with these little beads flapping and banging against your cheek and your mouth - tho I think it works here, for Fili, because they kept the beads small - they are not great huge things. Also Fili is described a "young, a bit cocky" so a little 'stache jewelry would match his rich braids, handsome coat, and carrying an arsenal of weapons when we meet him - LOL Fili has a bit of an attitude, look at the way he comes through the door at Bag End *grins* .
I personally might have left those off if I had been costuming a "lead" - I've done some bead necklace stringing and the weight and movement of beads for the wearer is just something you think about re jewelry - because some pieces can be annoying to wear being too heavy or uncomfortable - like a long necklace that bangs into everything.
Just like I wonder at Dain's massive beard jewelry, but the very heaviness of having something like that in his beard is saying something about the character. And too, re Thorin, I think it is overlooked that RA has described Thorin as "having very little vanity" and so I imagine this is a character who WOULD have a "singed beard" in honor of the fallen. A non-vain dwarf I think would just chop his beard off, perhaps, in rage and grief for his lost homeland. The same dwarf might indifferently ignore his hair, merely throwing a few binding clips into it, so it ends up mostly unbraided and long - as compared to the fussier styles of Ori and Gloin.
And so we see Thorin only blinging himself up under the weight of dragon sickness - a crown (that binds his hair and looks weighty), multiple rings, and all that. I am sure if the film arc had gone on for months, we would have seen a Thorin growing his beard, maybe with some beads, e.g. looking more and more like Thror (who had huge beard jewelry).
It's when Thorin comes back to himself all the trappings of royal dwarf richness are cast away; I think the film is quite deliberately showing a great, non-vain, heart of Thorin who is NOT inherently invested in riches - "I am not my grandfather". And just thinking about this for me shows just how much thought really did go into costuming the characters, through an arc of 3 films - every little detail!
So overall, for the Thorin-character, I think his simple, abeit sometimes rich, appearance works perfectly for the arc of the character, especially a traveling warrior-leader.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jun 25 2015, 3:19pm
Post #55 of 65
(613 views)
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Some of Thorin's "craggier" looks would have worked for me
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I think, now knowing RA's remarkable talent. Richard's eyes, voice, and charisma are his own, so I wonder what the more "craggy" Thorin would have been like on screen - I suspect completely compelling.
Of course, another problem with this sort of thing is, I've already seen three movies of short-beard Thorin, so I think that (for me at least) even if I DIDN'T have this ridiculous crush on him, the shorter beard is already fixed in my brain. It's like originally Ken Stott was going to have Oin's hair & beard, but somewhere along the line PJ decided to flip that. Now I can't imagine I would like Balin with that bee-stinger look, he's the Badass Santa of the bunch with that lovely white flowing beard - and I definitely DON'T have a crush on him, sorry
Well, there's that. Visually I think whether folks love Thorin's final look - or the dwarves' looks - I think across the board, the public accepted, even embraced the characters - now Thorin is Thorin - an icon. So PJ and his team were successful and happily didn't give us 13 little Gimlis charging across the landscape.
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Macfeast
Rohan
Jun 25 2015, 3:51pm
Post #56 of 65
(605 views)
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It sounds like a lot depends on the writing.
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That Fíli's 'stache braids fits with the way the character is presented, as you suggest (which, I agree, is a very important consideration, that the design fits the character).
In that sense, would a long beard on Thorin have been less distracting, had the details about Thorin's lack of vanity, and his honorary singed beard (and this is from behind-the-scenes material, not the actual films, keep in mind) never been spoken? Would that make us overlook all the beard-wagging from the action and running he would get into, in the same way that we overlook Gandalf's beard-wagging? Or is the concept of a long beard completely at odds with the concept of a heroic, sympathetic, and tragic warrior-king who gets involved in a lot of action?
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Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Rivendell
Jun 25 2015, 4:01pm
Post #57 of 65
(601 views)
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I think this is just one of those topics that can never satisfy everyone. Too much hair, too little hair; we can all agree to disagree. Some things have to be deviated from to adapt from page screen. This might be one of them, it may not be.
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Morwenn
The Shire
Jun 25 2015, 4:03pm
Post #58 of 65
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looking at it from yet another angle...
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... I've been thinking that the Thorin-Design we finally got is actually pure genius.
I mean I imagine the designer or whatever you call those people drawing all those Thorins with long, braided, forked whatever beards and every time it comes back as "no". It would be easy to get stuck and frustrated with the task: "Draw this guy. He must look like a dwarf. He must look sort of middle aged. He must look like a king. He must look like a hero. he's supposed to have sex appeal. But he has to have a long forked beard. No, we didn't like any of your earlier designs."
Some person must have had a major epiphany: WHAT IF I REPLACE AN IMPRESSIVE BEARD WITH IMPRESSIVE HAIR.
I think that was a very creative solution and actually a stroke of genius.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 25 2015, 7:47pm
Post #59 of 65
(571 views)
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Oh, back on the hair thread, LOL!
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As I've said, I think his beard looks just fine, but the hair is quite majestic, too!
Like sable on sable
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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DainPig
Gondor
Jun 25 2015, 10:55pm
Post #60 of 65
(541 views)
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Oh yeah, it's here:
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
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Macfeast
Rohan
Jun 26 2015, 12:20am
Post #62 of 65
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I do find it hard to blame PJ and team for relying on, as you reference, this deeply ingrained product of Western pop-cultural storytelling; It clearly has proven merit. For me personally, this is primarily about regret; As I mentioned prior, I thought this was a fantastic opportunity to push the limits of what a cinematic hero can legitimately look like, shake up this product of Western culture a bit, and I regret that it wasn't done.
It would be strange to have a character like James Bond or Batman sport a long, braided beard, but with Thorin, it was a legitimate, realistic possibility, one that PJ and team clearly gave serious consideration (and that is something I can respect; How many other filmmakers would have just abandoned the concept right away?). They've pushed plenty of limits elsewhere, and I really wish that they had followed through on it here as well; I think it would have done cinematic storytelling a favor, encouraging a broader spectrum of legitimate character designs for leading cinematic action heroes.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Jun 26 2015, 12:21am)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jun 26 2015, 3:13am
Post #63 of 65
(515 views)
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I think Thorin as we know him now, and the other dwarves, did push the envelope re what dwarves can look like - overturned the cart really. And it's going to be interesting, one day, when someone remakes the Hobbit. What direction will the go - try to religiously follow the book, or REALLY push the envelope?
I had another thought too, if Thorin's beard had been kept really long - next to the iconic Sir Ian, there might have been a real danger of that provoking endless memes and jokes about Thorin being the "son of Gandalf" and so on, as they were frequently in a shot together. 
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 26 2015, 2:11pm
Post #64 of 65
(479 views)
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There's also the practical issue of the wind machine....
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Or, when out on location, real wind. Remember those shots of Baling trying to deliver his lines in the stone giant scene.......
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Actually tho
[
Beard? Where's the beard?
[
at the thought of this LONG beard in the mix, blowing around like a banner advertising a car sale - er, no. Just no.
