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DainPig
Gondor
Jun 23 2015, 2:48pm
Post #1 of 13
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Dwarves: stupid and awesome!
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In An Unexpected Journey, the company is captured by three STUPID trolls. Then Gandalf (inteligent wizard) appears and save the day before the Trolls eat them.
In the same movie, AGAIN they were captured, but this time by orcs. So, Gandalf saved them, again...
In Desolation of Smaug, they were captured by spiders, and just after by elves! And in Lake town, they were captured more once by men!
Captured
Captured
Captured
So, in BOTFA, Peter Jackson shows me a scene where they are most badass than before.... just AMAZING
Dumb dwarves, but at the same time amazing warriors!
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 23 2015, 3:48pm
Post #2 of 13
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In some ways, they were even worse in the book.
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At least Jackson had the company charge the Trolls as a group and showed them armed. Under Tolkien, the Dwarves investigated the troll-camp in ones and twos and were not well-armed (Thorin had to fight off the Trolls with a burning branch!). The Dwarves didn't get much smarter in the later chapters either.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 23 2015, 4:01pm
Post #3 of 13
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You talking 'bout the scene where the bell breaks the wall
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and they come running out in Flying V formation? Well that is cool, but I would have liked to see even more of our Company smashing their way through the Orcs!
Another awesome thing about Dwarves is the way they all work together as a unit. I totally love that scene where the Iron Hills dwarves stack up their shields, then after the Elves jump over them they all charge forward at once, skewering dozens of Orcs. And did you notice how they chant? Like the guy that (I believe you asked if he could be Dain's son) called out something like "Da na, Durenuil" and they chanted a response - kind of like a football game, totally AWESOME in a "300" sort of way. That's probably where the Heirs of Durin screwed up, separating themselves from the Company and then each other on Ravenhill - though Thorin & Dwalin took out about 100 goblin mercenaries all by themselves, LOL!
At least they weren't captured by the Dragon, hehehe
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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DainPig
Gondor
Jun 23 2015, 4:07pm
Post #4 of 13
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Yes, I'm talking about "to the king" scene
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......some months before, they was captured by trolls... sheesh
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 23 2015, 4:39pm
Post #5 of 13
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I don't think that that one Dwarf was Thorin III, though. He looks more like a grizzled veteran to me. Dain's son was born in TA 2866 and would have been only seventy-four at the time of Jackson's Battle of Five Armies; still young by dwarven standards.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 23 2015, 4:40pm)
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jun 23 2015, 8:26pm
Post #6 of 13
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Good To Be Reminded About the Book.
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I have just read the book, as opposed to sections, with one perspective in mind the Dwarves.
Often people defend the Dwarves and their lack of impact as individuals in the second and third films comparative to the book, they are right, as are you on the troll section.
The much more controversial view is to ask why they anchored themselves in some of the book values in the first instance. Is not the Troll sequence as beautifully charming and silly in a gentle child like way as the tra la la Elves of Imladris and the fey creatures of the woodland realm which were disgarded.
It is fascinating to see what they dropped the talking purse, the juvenile view of the Elves of Rivendell, the Wood Elves and bursting into Lake Town and what they retained the Trolls, The Stone Giants and in the EE the comical introduction to Beorn.
In the book by page 215 only Dori who carries Bilbo in the mountain section and Bombur have any personal or singular portrayals outside of Thorin and Balin. Dwalin and Bofur are really quite wonderful developments and genuinely enrich the company and the films and your right if the films come across like a Brian Rix farce the book is to use the professors words after reading the entire book "poor".
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 23 2015, 9:14pm
Post #7 of 13
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Don't get me started on the Stone-giants.
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I still hate the gigantic, Transformer-like version of the giants that we got in the films.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 23 2015, 10:03pm
Post #8 of 13
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Well I"m going to guess that PJ had developed a certain kind of Elf in the LoTR movies, particularly Elrond, and it wouldn't have been appropriate for them to trounce around singing silly songs. I for one am glad PJ didn't go there. I've said before I'm not a huge fan of the book, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it's "poor" - especially after getting ripped by a book purist who talked about it like it was the ultimate in "Classic Children's Literature."
You're right, the Dwarves are terribly underdeveloped in the book (we've had this conversation before), and considering how important Kili & Fili are, you'd think he would have at least spoken a few lines about them besides their nearly drowning when the ponies ran off. Though I suppose Fili got a "hero moment" in the book that he never got in the movies, having sharp eyes & being able to lasso the boat so they could cross the enchanted stream. Sorry, but I don't know who Brian Rix is.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 23 2015, 10:06pm
Post #9 of 13
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that's actually pretty close to what I imagined in the book. Funny how different people can read the same thing and get two different ideas about it.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
Jun 24 2015, 5:02am
Post #10 of 13
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All of that is straight out of the book. As much as I love Thorin and Company, they really weren't the most competent team in Middle-Earth.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jun 24 2015, 12:19pm
Post #11 of 13
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I was all in favour of relating the two branches of Elves and the Lake men to the LOTR tropes. The word "poor" comes from the professor after he had written the LOTR. As a 60 year old I was 11 when the LOTR was read to me in class in 1966. This was coincidentally the point at which Tolkiens work went nuclear and became a world wide phenomena. It was part of the zeitgeist of the late 60's and all sorts of Rock Bands traded on Tolkien including Led Zeppelin.
This idea that the Hobbit was a huge childrens classic in the period before the LOTR is a piece of reverse engineering, It had sold modestly well. But it really began to shift huge volumes when people like myself bought it for their children from the 70's onwards.
Well I"m going to guess that PJ had developed a certain kind of Elf in the LoTR movies, particularly Elrond, and it wouldn't have been appropriate for them to trounce around singing silly songs. I for one am glad PJ didn't go there. I've said before I'm not a huge fan of the book, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it's "poor" - especially after getting ripped by a book purist who talked about it like it was the ultimate in "Classic Children's Literature." ----------------------------- Brian Rix wrote farces 20/30 years ago. It was light entertainment with lots of slamming doors and silly coincidences and the Troll scene in the movie from K & F sending Bilbo in until Gandalf returns has that same feel. Amusing, no real jeopardy, rather crude obvious humour and a ridiculous proposition dramatically. Great fun but for my understanding of what the film makers were trying to do (pre equals to their own films) tonally inconsistent. You're right, the Dwarves are terribly underdeveloped in the book (we've had this conversation before), and considering how important Kili & Fili are, you'd think he would have at least spoken a few lines about them besides their nearly drowning when the ponies ran off. Though I suppose Fili got a "hero moment" in the book that he never got in the movies, having sharp eyes & being able to lasso the boat so they could cross the enchanted stream. Sorry, but I don't know who Brian Rix is.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jun 24 2015, 12:21pm)
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 25 2015, 12:25am
Post #12 of 13
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One change I thought worked well...
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I liked that the Dwarves set out on their quest armed and well-fed, instead of being completely unprepared for everything like they were in the book. I liked that the Dwarves challenged the Trolls instead of mosying on in and getting sacks popped over their heads.
However, "Roast Mutton" fell apart for me when Thorin surrendered. He'd spent his whole adult life trying to get reclaim Erebor, so why would he throw all of that away and let all of his companions be eaten just to spare Bilbo (who he only just met) for a few extra minutes?
And on another note, why the heck would Trolls care about parasites? Would they even know what parasites were? One of the Trolls couldn't even tell the difference between a horse and a sheep (or a squirrel and a Hobbit), but apparently they were privy to the existence of microscopic organisms...
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 25 2015, 2:29pm
Post #13 of 13
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I agree about the Dwarves starting out better equipped in the films, athough I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'well-fed'. I wouldn't say that they were ill-fed when they started the quest in the book.
By the time that the company encountered the Trolls, they would have been on the road for about a month (give or take a few days). Thorin would have had a chance to get to know Bilbo a little. However, I agree that this does seem too soon to have Thorin risk his goals by surrendering for the burglar for whom he yet has no confidence. Still, it shows that he feels some responsibility for him as a member of the company.
It's reasonable that the Trolls might be aware of parasites such as intestinal worms (not exactly microscopic). Of course, the easy answer to that is in thorough cooking! My spouse pointed out that the real problem with that scene is that it was already awfully close to dawn when Bilbo started his stalling and the Trolls would have already needed to start preparing to shelter for the day.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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