|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
DainPig
Gondor
Jun 22 2015, 9:12pm
Post #1 of 33
(1252 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Wait, what is The Master?
|
Can't Post
|
|
I thought here, who's The Master of Lake-town?
He's like a king? Or he was elected by the people?
We have a monarchy here? Exist democracy among men in Middle earth?
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
|
|
|
AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 22 2015, 9:31pm
Post #2 of 33
(1160 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I think the DoS bonus features...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Say something about a rigged election? I think I vaguely remember something along those lines, or maybe I made it up 
|
|
|
marary
Lorien
Jun 22 2015, 9:34pm
Post #3 of 33
(1155 views)
Shortcut
|
The men of Lake-town elected their masters, and the master we meet at the time of the hobbit was particularly good at giving the right kind of speeches to stay in power.
Movie master was actually quite a bit more lecherous than book master, actually. (Though book master was pretty greedy.)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 22 2015, 9:50pm
Post #4 of 33
(1133 views)
Shortcut
|
The Master is the Mayor of Lake-town. Tolkien wrote that he was elected, but I suspect that either the votes were all from the Merchant Houses or that they had more votes than commoners. In the films, the Master doesn't seem to have had to face an election for a very long time.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
DainPig
Gondor
Jun 22 2015, 9:54pm
Post #5 of 33
(1133 views)
Shortcut
|
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 22 2015, 9:56pm
Post #6 of 33
(1125 views)
Shortcut
|
Also, democracy in the Shire for the Mayor of Michel Delving.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 23 2015, 1:28pm
Post #7 of 33
(977 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Well I got the impression that he was appointed
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
at least in the movie - in DOS Alfrid mentions "there's even talk of an election." To which the Master replies, "An election? I won't stand for it!" This suggests to me at least that however he got his power, it wasn't through elections.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
|
|
|
Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 23 2015, 3:38pm
Post #8 of 33
(949 views)
Shortcut
|
|
There are also those statues of him
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
In the middle of the town as well as on his boat.
They wouldn't do that for an elected mayor.
One option is that he could be a merchant who bought enough to get nobody else standing against him.
He may be the heir of an ancester who bought everything that had been ruined by Smaug,
Only one guy in town still able to pay wages for the city guards, otherwise under-payed as we see Braga himself.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 23 2015, 4:03pm
Post #9 of 33
(938 views)
Shortcut
|
The Master of Lake-town could have still been elected when he first achieved power. My guess is that he (or a predecessor) somehow got the merchant class to support him in making the mayor a permanent position. Perhaps he was elected for life. I suspect that he, himself, commissioned the statue(s).
We know that the Mayor (Master) of Lake-town was an elected position in the book; even so, Tolkien never elaborated on the election process. Did every citizen get a vote? Was the mayor elected solely by the merchant class? Did some votes count more than others? We don't know.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 23 2015, 4:04pm)
|
|
|
Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 23 2015, 4:56pm
Post #10 of 33
(924 views)
Shortcut
|
|
There would be a merchant's class
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
If the town was rich.
But all the town seems to live in some kind of poverty.
We don't see any circle of powerful people around the master, only the guards and Alfrid.
So the Master seems to be the only upper class guy.
And he doesn't own much himself... counting and counting ounce by ounce his 'fortune'
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 23 2015, 5:34pm
Post #11 of 33
(915 views)
Shortcut
|
The town does seem to be more prosperous (if smaller) in the book than in the films, if not as much as in the past. The Master could have still initially achieved his position by election. I still maintain that the change may be that he was elected for life instead of for a limited term. And a merchant class might have fallen in the years since the Master achieved power.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 23 2015, 5:35pm)
|
|
|
Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 23 2015, 6:00pm
Post #12 of 33
(906 views)
Shortcut
|
|
At least they know the world 'Election'
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
So that might be an indication that it once happened 
|
|
|
dreamflower
Lorien
Jun 23 2015, 9:56pm
Post #13 of 33
(871 views)
Shortcut
|
Historically (and of course Tolkien knew this) most early elections were not about democracy, but about varying forms of oligarchy.
Sometimes it was only landowners who voted, other times it was the merchants, or certain guildmasters. It was not "majority rules". As you can imagine a system like that is particularly open to corruption and abuse, and it's fairly obvious that the Master of Laketown is product of such a system.
My guess, my theory, is that in the Shire the voting block probably consisted of the Heads of the families, probably the Heads of the "Greater Families" that Tolkien mentions in Letter #214. The good part is that most hobbits are not power-hungry. So the Mayor's job is mainly ceremonial, and symbolic.
At any rate, they are not the sorts of elections we think of nowadays.
Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.
|
|
|
Morwenn
The Shire
Jun 24 2015, 4:31pm
Post #14 of 33
(824 views)
Shortcut
|
he comes across as someone who was put into power by an oligarchy, an aristocratic group. It would be quite typical for medieval/ early modern Europe and as such fits Middle Earth, too. Maybe the ruling class who elected him is impoverished now and therefore not really visible. But some of these 'commoners' might represent old, formerly powerful families.
(This post was edited by Morwenn on Jun 24 2015, 4:32pm)
|
|
|
AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 24 2015, 4:49pm
Post #15 of 33
(818 views)
Shortcut
|
|
OT. Why do PJ's characters feel so alone?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Thinking about who would have elected The Master, I was trying to imagine the people that The Master would know, his friends/family/employees and the powerful people of Laketown. But all we ever see is The Master talking to Alfrid on his own.
Elaborating on this thought, I realised many of PJ's characters are the same - Denethor sits on his own in Minas Tirith, Thranduil isolated in Mirkwood. It also strikes me that PJ's locations - the villages and cities, feel "empty". Even though we can see people within the environment, something about Minas Tirith and Dale and Edoras, just feel strangely deserted, not like a living breathing town like I'd imagined in the book.
I don't know exactly what it is that creates this "empty" atmosphere, but I'm sure it's there, with a few exceptions - Hobbiton feels very alive and the hobbits seem very social and friendly. I wonder if, instead of Alfrid, we had multiple consultants (as described in the book) to listen to the Master's thoughts and plans, whether he'd seem like a more realistic character?
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 24 2015, 8:16pm
Post #16 of 33
(798 views)
Shortcut
|
I thought that Esgaroth, at least, felt very alive taking into consideration the depressed economic state of the town. The films never spent enough time in Erebor or Dale during their heyday to really get much of a feel for the residents and their daily lives.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 24 2015, 8:18pm
Post #17 of 33
(797 views)
Shortcut
|
Crowds abound in every PJ movie :
- Hobbits in Hobbiton
- Goblins in Goblintown
- Orcs in Cirith Ungol, Barad Dur
- Humans in Bree, Edoras, Helm's Deep, Osgiliath, Minas Tirith, Dale (before burnt), Esgaroth
- Elves in Rivendell (less in Thranduil's estate, yes)
- Deads in Dunharrow
|
|
|
AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 24 2015, 8:29pm
Post #18 of 33
(793 views)
Shortcut
|
|
No, I know... it's hard to explain...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It's most apparent in Minas Tirith. Even though we see lots of people walking around, there's something about it (I can't quite explain) that just feels lifeless to me. It's like seeing a crowd of people walking around a deserted town. It's not literally empty, but something about it doesn't feel inhabited? Maybe I'm the only one that feels this way. I'm not complaining, the sets are beautifully realised, but I find it curious and I wonder what causes me to see it like that.
|
|
|
AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 24 2015, 8:35pm
Post #19 of 33
(788 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I agree Lake-town is an exception...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It really felt like a living breathing town with a busy and bustling community. But The Master feels very separate and alone within that busy town - Although I'm sure that's intentional.
As I said below, Minas Tirith is the key example for me, I don't know why but it has a weird atmosphere about it. Edoras has it to a lesser extent as do Erebor and Dale, although you're probably right that we just didn't spend enough time there.
Anyway, I've gone way off topic, I just wanted to raise this to see if I was the only one who felt this way. And maybe I am 
|
|
|
Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 24 2015, 8:38pm
Post #20 of 33
(789 views)
Shortcut
|
You will no often find as many bonds and activities as in PJ's movies. Just look at the extras.
Almost most fantastic than the movies themselves
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 24 2015, 8:44pm
Post #21 of 33
(782 views)
Shortcut
|
In nothing else, I thought that Minas Tirith felt like a living city in the scene where Faramir and his men are riding out to attempt to retake Osgiliath. The weeping women throwing flowers at their feet emphasized the suicidal nature of their mission.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
dreamflower
Lorien
Jun 24 2015, 9:06pm
Post #22 of 33
(775 views)
Shortcut
|
I sort of agree with you. It's not a lack of extras, it's a lack of "real" people. Yet this is common to many movies.
I understand why PJ did away the complications of characters like Imrahil and his sons, Beregond and Bergil, Ioreth, etc. Too much to explain to the non-reading audience.
But in most movies that have crowd scenes, the same couple of dozen extras mill around, and most scenes of cheering or jeering don't feel spontaneous. Or panicked people simply run around screaming with no particular effort to escape the danger.
PJ is better than that for the most part. (The evacuations of Erebor and Dale seem fairly realistic). But still, the most important characters still feel isolated, since important characters are missing.
Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.
|
|
|
Elarie
Grey Havens
Jun 25 2015, 12:14am
Post #23 of 33
(750 views)
Shortcut
|
There's a description in the LOTR book somewhere of Minas Tirith having too many empty houses and too few children, or something to that effect, because of the dwindling population. And in the movie all that stone feels rather cold and grand and on the few occasions when we see an interior room there's almost no furniture or soft furnishings like fabrics and rugs, etc. It's beautiful, but not very cosy.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
|
|
|
elostirion74
Rohan
Jun 25 2015, 7:31pm
Post #24 of 33
(703 views)
Shortcut
|
In the book I think itīs fairly obvious that the Master is elected by and from a limited group/class of people, very similar to the system you describe. It is also clearly stated what is the basis of the Masterīs position of power (trade, tolls, tariffs) .
The Master in the films seems to me quite unrealistic in the way he seems so isolated from the supporters he must have had to preserve his power.
|
|
|
Morwenn
The Shire
Jun 26 2015, 7:58am
Post #25 of 33
(688 views)
Shortcut
|
Elaborating on this thought, I realised many of PJ's characters are the same - Denethor sits on his own in Minas Tirith, Thranduil isolated in Mirkwood. It also strikes me that PJ's locations - the villages and cities, feel "empty". Even though we can see people within the environment, something about Minas Tirith and Dale and Edoras, just feel strangely deserted, not like a living breathing town like I'd imagined in the book. It's Tolkien, not Jackson, who creates those solitary characters. He describes the heroes of Middle earth as lonely people. He invented the isolated Denethor, deprived of his sons (did he ever have a wife? Does he have daughters?); he described Aragorn as a loner "striding" through the forests on his own; Both Bilbo and Frodo are, though related to each other, strangely without family. There are no siblings, wifes, living parents, although hobbits in general are decribed as very sociable and living in huge clans, very family-oriented people. They don't even seem to have many friends; It looks as if Frodo wasn't even aware that he does have such close friends as Merry and Pippin. And his closest friend is not really his friend at all but his employee, Sam. Gollum is an extremely lonely figure and Gandalf, obviously, is very solitary and self-reliant. So is Legolas, for that matter; he comes to Rivendell with a group of elves who remain very anonymous. There is no "company" of elves come to Rivendell of whom we learn much or who would go on the quest together. The Fellowship of the ring is a group of solitary people come together. The total lack of heterosexual couples is blatant. Marriages and families remain something symbolic, and reserved to the "lesser" people, the less important characters such as Sam, Faramir, etc. Also the books are full of melancholia. The time of the elves is over, they are leaving Middle Earth; Saruman and Sauron destroy much of what is described as good or noble in Middle Earth, the Ring War leaves a "lesser" Middle Earth behind. Jackson just put this mood into pictures. The explanation is likely to be found in JRR Tolkien's biography.
(This post was edited by Morwenn on Jun 26 2015, 8:02am)
|
|
|
|
|
1
