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Nuradar
Rohan
Jun 22 2015, 4:39pm
Post #1 of 17
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Is the Arkenstone a Silmaril?
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I know this was discussed a while back, but I don't recall any prevailing consensus on this.
Is it safe to assume that the Arkenstone is, in fact, one of the silmarils?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 22 2015, 4:47pm
Post #3 of 17
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It doesn't seem to be; although Tolkien borrowed a bit from his description of the Silmarils.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Nuradar
Rohan
Jun 22 2015, 4:53pm
Post #4 of 17
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I understand the fate of the 3 silmarils, but isn't it plausible, even probable, that the one that ended up in the fiery pit when Maedhros threw himself and his silmaril in, turns out to be the Arkentsone?
The description of both gems are undeniably similar...
Just wondering...thanks.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jun 22 2015, 5:23pm
Post #5 of 17
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Erebor is not a fiery pit volcano.
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The Arkenstone was mined out of the heart of the mountain....
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jun 22 2015, 5:24pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 22 2015, 6:23pm
Post #6 of 17
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The Lonely Mountain is not a volcano.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Morthoron
Gondor
Jun 22 2015, 7:29pm
Post #7 of 17
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the Arkenstone was "cut and fashioned" by the dwarves, whereas a Silmaril would be completely impervious to the dwarves' tools. They could only be broken by Feanor, and that would not happen until the end of the world, per the Doom of Mandos.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Jun 22 2015, 7:30pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 22 2015, 8:22pm
Post #8 of 17
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Also, the Silmarils were crafted artificially and were never rough-cut stones. One could be freed from volcanic rock (if it wasn't destroyed) but it would still be complete.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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DainPig
Gondor
Jun 22 2015, 9:44pm
Post #9 of 17
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maybe a inactive volcano!
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 22 2015, 9:55pm
Post #10 of 17
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If it was a volcano then it has been inactive for a very long time. Unfortunately, I can't be more specific.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jun 22 2015, 11:02pm
Post #11 of 17
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Here is a hypothetical geological explanation
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http://pascals-puppy.blogspot.com/...y-mountain_8985.html
"Okay, so far I've proposed that the Lonely Mountain is the eroded remnant of the intrusive igneous and hydrothermal component of an ancient arc-volcanic system. "
See the previous links on the page to go to the beginning.
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Jun 22 2015, 11:03pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jun 23 2015, 10:56am
Post #12 of 17
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Yes Morthoron, among the arguments against the idea (that the Arkenstone is a Silmaril), I would say this is a notable one.
So far I have seen (read on line) two attempts to get round this high hurdle, but both are, to my mind, strained attempts. One being that, what is meant is that the Dwarves cut lava rock, or some sort of rock or earth stuck to the jool, to reveal a finished gem, a Silmaril!
Another being that there are two "traditions" concerning the finding of the Arkenstone, and that the one in The Hobbit is wrong. Which I don't buy, and I think speaks to how solid the description is in The Hobbit, as far as what is meant by "cut and fashioned"...
... that the Arkenstone was a special jool in raw form, made more special by Dwarven skill and craftsmanship.
I think there is a measure of literary borrowing here, just as with (in my opinion) Thingol and the Elven King of Mirkwood, but that doesn't make the Elven king actually Thingol of course, nor the Arkenstone actually a Silmaril.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jun 23 2015, 11:02am)
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Nuradar
Rohan
Jun 23 2015, 1:09pm
Post #13 of 17
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I appreciate your thoughts on this, everyone, thank you. It's a pretty intriguing thought, but one has to make quite an attempt to ague they are the same stone.
Still, part of me is open to the possibility, even though it's a very small one :)
Thanks!
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jun 23 2015, 7:59pm
Post #14 of 17
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The simple answer to the question is no but the more interesting question is why in this adult re-imagining that sits as a pre equal to a much grander quest story it might have been played as tantalisingly possible.
We often discuss ambiguity with negative connotations but to leave certain elements unanswered increases the sense of mystique and fascination.
Certainly the jewel we get is very underwhelming and the most powerful part of the film myth is the inscription which Gloin reads which make it much more impactive. For me the description in the book is much stronger.
The Arkenstone is a central symbolic motif of the inherent nature of the films. Its importance evolved and changed as the films were made and then it finally disappears disgarded to be explained only for the special edition…. or not. It should have been seen as the quintessential icon of the film from start to end helping transforming the films into something grander and more epoch making. To tantalising imply it may have been placed back inside the story the vision of Eru re fashioned would have also kept the Dwarven lead nature of the story more central with the necromancer story kept on the edge but still explained.
Grow and re imagine the central story not sub plots of minor characters. Deepen the myth find its true significance, thats how the professor worked discovering the importance of the actual Silmarils as he moved through the Book of Lost Tales to the Re Imagined Silmarillion of the 1950's work.
It would certainly have given the films more focus for the Arkenstone to be more Silmaril like- the worm understood.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 23 2015, 8:31pm
Post #15 of 17
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What we have is the Arkenstone left in Bard's Pocket.
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For me, that's fine ambiguity. 
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adt100
Rohan
Jun 24 2015, 3:22pm
Post #16 of 17
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With regard the jewel we get in the film...
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Whilst physically I did not very much care for the design (it looked far too much like a multicoloured, glowing CGI blob for my liking), I don't really think it was underplayed in the film. In fact, having not read the book for a number of years before seeing the film I actually thought that they'd made a much bigger deal of the Arkenstone in the films. Maybe re-reading now I would come away with a greater feeling of the significance of the Arkenstone, but it was honestly never something that struck too strongly with me in the book. I was probably more excited by the prospects of talking spider, goblins, dragons and gold!
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jun 24 2015, 8:56pm
Post #17 of 17
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The Arkenstone in the book is a very straightforward proposition its importance grows naturally in a straight forward way after its "cell like" introduction and plays out logically.
In the films it is caught up in the evolving notion of the Quest and so emerges by the beginning of the second film as the purpose for the Quest. I thought that was a wonderful organic development. This fabulous jewel sanctifies the person whom holds it and the dwarven might will rally round behind it.
So slightly after it has begun the Quest becomes a dangerous journey to the mountain by stealth with Thorin taking the the most unexpected of companions.
Rather like the Silmarillion the overall tradition of the narrative remains unchanged but the circumstances of the story telling are substantially changed and could have gone on changing beyond the point they reached in the films.
The long term objective is still to reclaim Erebor and restore the kingship but the Quest is no longer an old fashioned fairy story where 14 go off to slay the dragon and divide the spoils and have adventures. It is a deadly serious geo political matter which should be achieved by discretion finding unexpected help and hurdles on the way. Galadriel supports it whereas Thranduil the embittered isolationist has a terrible personal grievance over another jewel or jewels. The Master has no option but to help and the only reason Thorin puts up with the low level shenanigans he comes across in Lake Town is because he needs to he is faced with expedient choices just as Frodo is 60 years later.
Curiously enough if the emphasis of discretion and secrecy becomes predominant the secret exit by Thror and Thrain and re entry to Erebor by stealth and the Map and the Key fit well with such a shift. Other things become less important redundant or uncomfortable.
So the Arkenstone has grown from book to film but it could have been even more Silmarril like.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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