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**The Breaking of the Fellowship** - 5. ‘Of all the confounded nuisances you are the worst, Sam!’ he said.

squire
Half-elven


Jun 20 2015, 3:21pm

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**The Breaking of the Fellowship** - 5. ‘Of all the confounded nuisances you are the worst, Sam!’ he said. Can't Post

Welcome to the final post in this discussion of the final chapter of Book 2 of The Lord of the Rings. As always, I encourage you to answer only the questions that interest you, rather than feeling compelled to cover it all. The only rule of a Reading Room discussion is that there are no rules (almost).



Aragorn continues up Amon Hen (Scott Peery)

5.1 Aragorn leaves Sam behind, but Sam realizes where Frodo must be
Summary: Aragorn catches up with Sam, but then outpaces the hobbit as he runs up the hill in hope that the Seat of Seeing will be of aid. Sam pauses and works out that Boromir must have somehow frightened Frodo into making the decision to go East, alone. Logically (for once), Sam thinks that Frodo must therefore be getting his gear together by the boats, before crossing the River.

Aragorn catches up to Sam at the lawn with the stone and the rowan trees, which Frodo took some time to get to while wandering up the hill of Amon Hen earlier that morning.
A. If a Ranger runs twice as fast as a hobbit, say 9 mph vs 4.5 mph, and the distance to the upper lawn from Parth Galen is, say, a mile, then how much time had passed until Aragorn chewed out Boromir and began to run after Sam?

Aragorn orders Sam to follow him to the top of the hill, saying “none of us should be alone”. But exhilarated by spotting Frodo’s tracks and by the prospect of trying the Seat of Seeing while also doing his duty of finding Frodo, the Ranger leaves Sam far behind almost immediately. And that is the last we see of Aragorn in this volume of The Lord of the Rings.
B. How does Aragorn, in this chapter, stack up to the occasional criticism of him as “perfect hero”?

C. Why doesn’t Aragorn see Frodo’s tracks coming back down the hill?

Sam reasons through what happened between Boromir and Frodo, inferring that the episode spurred Frodo to start out for Mordor, alone.
D. Why is Sam certain that Frodo has decided to head for Mordor and the Fire, rather than to claim the Ring for his own, or to “fling it in the river and bolt”?

Thinking it through even further, Sam realizes that Frodo will need a boat to cross the river, and “like lightning” heads for the boats himself.
E. Shouldn’t Aragorn (or Boromir) have thought through Frodo’s plight with the same logic, and deputed himself or someone (maybe even Sam) to guard the boats?


5.2 Sam nearly drowns while catching up to Frodo in the boat
Summary: Sam frantically bolts down the hill to the lawn of Parth Galen, and the bank where the boats are. Gaping, he sees a boat moving by itself into the water. Calling Frodo’s name, he races after it and leaps into the water, missing the boat and sinking under water. From the boat comes a gasp and it turns; Frodo grabs Sam by the hair as he gasps for air in terror of drowning. Still invisible, Frodo calms Sam into clinging to the gunwale, and the boat returns to shore. Sam flounders out, and Frodo takes off the Ring.

Running as fast as he can to catch up with Frodo, “Sam fell and cut his knees.”
F. Ow. How often and where does anyone else stumble, fall, or trip and cut, bruise, or otherwise damage themselves in this heroic epic?

Sam sees a supernatural vision that occurs nowhere else in the stories, as far as I can tell: an object being moved by an invisible wearer of the Ring, so that it appears to move by itself.

A Diversion into Our Family History: Not that Tolkien wasn’t aware of the possibilities and problems of this kind of thing. In his first draft of Book 1, Tolkien has his Frodo character play a magic trick on the hated Farmer Maggot. Invisible due to the Ring, he hijacks and drinks a mug of ale:
‘Well! Here’s your health and good luck!’ said the farmer, reaching for his mug. But at that moment the mug left the table, rose, tilted in the air, and then returned empty to its place. – HoME VI.4, 96.
As Christopher Tolkien notes, the comic potential of this “outrageous” stunt could be expanded, and was in the next revision:
Bingo (then the Ringbearer’s name) takes his revenge on Maggot by drinking from the mug, then haunting the farmer by invisibly yelling at him that ‘there’s a Baggins inside your house, a very angry Baggins’, and pushing him into the fireplace. [Maggot] sat up again just in time to see his own hat … sail out of the door, which opened so as to let it pass. ‘Hi, here!’ yelled the farmer… At that the hat went off at great speed towards the gate; but as the farmer ran after it, it came sailing back through the air and fell at his feet. – HoME VI.17, 292-93.
Christopher Tolkien remarks that he, as a youth, enjoyed this comedy so much that his father hesitated to take it out even as it became unsustainable against other demands of the plot and the story. Father and son debated why the hat remained visible while on Bingo’s head, and JRRT rewrote it so a jug of beer, not a hat, sailed out of the house and down the lane. CT comments that, with the change of Maggot to a friendly agent, “disappeared the last (more or less) light-hearted use of the Ring.” (Ibid.)
G. To what degree is this episode, with Sam “gazing, stock-still, gaping” at the impossibly sliding boat, and the exchange “Now take my hand!” “I can’t see your hand.” “Here it is.”, a “light-hearted” and inappropriate use of the Ring’s invisibility power?

H. Why are Frodo’s clothes invisible, but not the boat – or the paddle?

I. Why does Frodo continue to wear the Ring, when moving the boat betrays his presence and location just as if he himself was still visible?

A lot of commentary on Frodo and Sam’s relationship notes how Sam acts as Frodo’s ‘mother’ or care-giver, drawing on the example of British manservants both in the War and in peacetime. Yet here it is Sam who is depicted as a desperate and panicked child; I especially am struck by the parental figures in “Frodo was just in time to grasp Sam by the hair”, “Fear was staring in his round brown eyes.” and “’Don’t pinch, lad! I won’t let you go.”
J. Where else, and in what contexts, do we see Frodo acting as Sam’s ‘father’ or elder guardian?

K. Of all the authorial choices about how to get these two together on their journey East, why stage the near-drowning of Sam?


5.3 Frodo accepts Sam’s company, and they pack up
Summary: Frodo scolds Sam for delaying him; he is desperate to get away before his companions return and talk him out of his plan. Sam in turn scolds Frodo for thinking of leaving him behind. They bicker lovingly until Frodo laughs and gives in, accepting Sam as his fated helpmate. Sam eagerly grabs his pack, and some spare food. As they set off, Frodo exclaims how glad he is that Sam is with him, but expresses regret that he will never see the others again. “Strider will look after them”, he muses. Sam hopefully offers that, possibly, they may yet survive their fatal adventure to Mordor.

Frodo and Sam debate in reasonable tones about how and why Frodo must go alone, or how and why Sam must accompany him.
L. What does this exchange bring out about the two hobbits’ relationship, that we didn’t know or understand before?

M. Should we expect more drama: Yelling? Crying? The emergence of hitherto repressed feelings?

Sam says he’s all packed, as “I thought we should be off today.” Yet the company only arrived the night before, and have been traveling from campsite to campsite on a daily basis for weeks.
N. How is Sam “all ready” to go with Frodo in a way the others, it seems, would not be?

Frodo laughs and is “glad, I cannot tell you how glad” to realize that “we were meant to go together.”
O. Yet Frodo fought as hard as he could to escape Sam and leave him behind – or didn’t he?

Once again something is presented by the characters as being “meant to be.” The passive voice disguises the actual expression, which is that “Someone meant this to be.”
P. Who is the “someone” the characters conceive of when they say this?

This is not an original observation, but religion originates in humanity’s perception that there is a fate or an intent in the way events play out. We humans pray to the agent or agents that we think can affect our fates, hoping to influence that agent to our benefit.
P. Why doesn’t Frodo take a second to thank Eru, or the Valar, for the blessing of being given Sam as a companion on the road to Mordor?

Sam contradicts Frodo’s rational but glum assessment that they will never see their friends again.
Q. Is this the author reassuring us that although the story will get scary, in fact there will be a happy ending?




Frodo and Sam Depart (LotR by Bakshi)

5.4 Frodo and Sam cross the River and set off for the Land of Shadow.
Summary: Frodo and Sam paddle out into Anduin, and only barely escape the falls as they pass south of Tol Brandir in the middle of the stream. They land on the eastern shore at the foot of Amon Lhaw, and set off up into the hills of the Emyn Muil, seeking a way into the Land of Shadow.

The struggle with the current, to avoid being swept over the falls, is described dramatically and concisely.
R. How could Frodo the hobbit, barely helped by Sam, fight a strong current when we’ve already seen that the Men find the boats hard to handle in fast water?

We have seen Strider, the greatest huntsman and tracker of the age, get lost or misdirected in unfamiliar territory at least twice already. But Sam and Frodo set off into the hills, “seeking a path” to Mordor.
S. Does Frodo have a map, a compass, or merely a photographic memory and an excellent sense of direction?




Ace paperback edition, 1965 (cover art by Jack Gaughan)

5.5 The End of Book Two and Volume One
Summary: In italicized text, the chapter and book and volume concludes with “Here ends the first part of the history of the War of the Ring.” We are told briefly that the next part is The Two Towers, so called because the story landscapes are dominated by Orthanc and Minas Morgul, in which “the sundered fellowship” engages in “deeds and perils”. Even more briefly we learn that the third part is The Return of the King, telling of the “last defence” against Sauron, and “the end of the mission of the Ring-bearer.”

This book ends in a very low-key way, I think.
T. Which of the six books of LotR end in cliff-hangers, and which with resolutions?

I have heard that there is a debate about which two towers The Two Towers is supposed to refer to.
U. Doesn’t this epilogue put that debate to rest?

V. Is “the end of the mission of the Ring-bearer” the best way to sum up Book 6?

As we know, the breaking of the 6-book romance The Lord of the Rings into three volumes for economy of publication has led to it being mischaracterized ever since as a trilogy. This epilogue clearly plays a part in informing the reader that there are two more volumes, especially in the context of the first printing, when the next two volumes were not even published yet. But since then there have been one-volume and six-volume editions, neither of which look like trilogies.
W. In the non-trilogy editions, do Tolkien's two mid-volume epilogues disappear, or get extended to the additional volume breaks, or are they left in as part of the author's original text?

Thanks for everybody’s participation and all the excellent thoughts and responses so far! It’s been a pleasure, as always, to really read a chapter in order to craft a good discussion in the company of the Reading Room.

Here ends the second part of the Sixth discussion of the War of the Ring.
X. Any questions?



squire online:
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Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jun 20 2015, 6:46pm

Post #2 of 16 (3083 views)
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C. D. E. F. [In reply to] Can't Post

 

C. Why doesn’t Aragorn see Frodo’s tracks coming back down the hill?

Sneakin’ ahead to Book III he does see returning tracks.

D. Why is Sam certain that Frodo has decided to head for Mordor and the Fire, rather than to claim the Ring for his own, or to “fling it in the river and bolt”?

Again, Sam is the only one that stopped in his tracks and used his head instead of his (slow) feet. He knew his master’s mind and guessed his master’s intentions at this point.

’Whoa, Sam Gamgee! . . . Your legs are too short, so use your head!’ – he did.

E. Shouldn’t Aragorn (or Boromir) have thought through Frodo’s plight with the same logic, and deputed himself or someone (maybe even Sam) to guard the boats?

Yes! Helter Skelter. Sitting and thinking makes the day. *Cheers the lowly gardener* Running amok makes for a confused mind and bad decisions.

Running as fast as he can to catch up with Frodo, “Sam fell and cut his knees.”
F. Ow. How often and where does anyone else stumble, fall, or trip and cut, bruise, or otherwise damage themselves in this heroic epic?


Oh, more fun!

Going waay back, -The Hobbit-

There’s some stumbling from the Thirteen Bumblers as they enter Bag End.
Bilbo fell on the floor – “Struck by lightning!”
Dori (carrying Bilbo) was grabbed from behind and fell.
Bilbo stumbled and fell as Gollum passed him by.
Bombur fell in the Enchanted River.

-LOTR-

Lottsa Hobbits ‘fell’ at the Long-Expected Party and had to be hauled off in wheelbarrows.
Frodo falls in the Withywindle and dragged out by Sam. (More horse-sense from SamWISE: “There’s more behind this than sun and warm air. . . I don’t like this great big tree.)
Frodo falls from the table at the Prancing Pony.
Merry fell over outside the Pony (Black Breath?)
Bill Ferney might have fallen after an apple on the nose.
Frodo ‘threw himself on the ground’ before being stabbed by the Morgul-knife- O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
Frodo fell from Asfaloth on the east side of the Ford of Rivendell.

Ok! Tons more— Go, go . . .

Comes to mind that Eomer stumbles or is tripped at Helm’s Deep and saved by a small hairy hero. “Baruk Khazad, Khazad ai-menu!” ‘An axe fell and swept back, and two orcs dropped headless!’ You gotta love it. (A favorite quote (among a thousand!))



squire
Half-elven


Jun 22 2015, 3:13am

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A trip is as good as a fall, but neither one hurts at all [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice listing of various stumbles, falls and trips. What I found curious about this one (Sam's) is that he actually suffers an injury, whereas in none of the mishaps you cite do we ever hear of anyone getting hurt in any way.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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tgshaw
The Shire

Jun 22 2015, 12:28pm

Post #4 of 16 (2974 views)
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Replying to: P and W [In reply to] Can't Post

P. Why doesn’t Frodo take a second to thank Eru, or the Valar, for the blessing of being given Sam as a companion on the road to Mordor?

Because that's the way Tolkien wrote it - and I'm not being flippant. It's just one instance of "that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named" (cf. letter #192). JRRT was doing exactly what he was trying to do - have the religious intent absorbed into the story without it being explicit. I'd be so bold as to suggest that the reaction of "Wait a second. If it was 'meant' to happen, there had to be someone behind it," was exactly the response he would have wanted.
Also, as someone who first read LotR in 1969, I can tell you that when it was published, someone mentioning "Eru" would have just elicited a "huh?" among readers. The Valar are mentioned once, when one of Faramir's men calls on them to turn the Mumak aside, but they're not explained (and an also-unexplained mention in Appendix A). The only supernatural being it would have made any sense for Frodo to thank would have been Elbereth, and we're never told who she really is. Sometimes those of us in "later days" forget that LotR was pre-Sil and pre-Letters. A lot that we take for granted was simply unknown and would have taken more explanation than Tolkien wanted to put into the story.


W. In the non-trilogy editions, do Tolkien's two mid-volume epilogues disappear, or get extended to the additional volume breaks, or are they left in as part of the author's original text?
In my one-volume version, they disappear. Not sure if that's true of every version.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jun 22 2015, 12:47pm

Post #5 of 16 (2967 views)
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Okay, I bumbled the stumble [In reply to] Can't Post

and got a little carried away with my trip, fall, and stumble.

Here are a few where I hopefully have followed your question and there are (probably) some injury (be they minor or no).

Frodo fell with a cry when seized by the Watcher in the Water.
Gandalf “fell to the ground”, shaken after some wizardry at the eastern door to the Chamber of Mazarbul.
Gandalf fell (was actually “pulled”) from the Bridge of Khazad-dum. But we regularly (and correctly) talk of Gandalf’s “fall” from the Bridge. Doom, doom, doom!
Beside Sam falling and cutting his knees (as you mention) he also fell face downward into the water in attempt to catch Frodo in the boat.
Saruman ‘fell back and crawled away’ as Gandalf cast him from the Order of Istari. (Mental anguish?)
Pippin ‘with a strangled cry … fell back and lay still’ after gazing into the palantir at Dol Baran.

Sam ‘toppled backwards’ as he was attacked by Gollum outside Shelob’s lair.
Baldor ‘fell upon his face’ and died in the Paths of the Dead.
Faramir was hit by a ‘deadly dart’ and fell to the earth on the Pelennor.
Theoden “fell beneath” Snowmane on the Pelennor.
The Witch-king “stumbled forward” as Merry’s sword struck behind his knee.
Eowyn “stumbled to her knees” as the Witch-king struck his mace-blow on the Pelennor.

Okay, skipping quickly towards the end:
Beregond “was stunned and overborne, and he fell” at the battle before the Morannon.

Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
-JRR Tolkien


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 22 2015, 2:15pm

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Welcome tgshaw! :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you're entirely right. There's a deliberate lack of any organized religion in the story.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jun 22 2015, 6:10pm

Post #7 of 16 (2950 views)
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G-K [In reply to] Can't Post

G. To what degree is this episode, with Sam “gazing, stock-still, gaping” at the impossibly sliding boat, and the exchange “Now take my hand!” “I can’t see your hand.” “Here it is.”, a “light-hearted” and inappropriate use of the Ring’s invisibility power?

What’s a matter that Frodo. Here’s a boat slipping away on its own?
Shoulda taken off the Ring after launching, eh? But then why should he?

H. Why are Frodo’s clothes invisible, but not the boat – or the paddle?

Apparently The Ring only makes the wearer, his duds, and (usually) his weapon invisible.
Or why is the chain holding the Ring visible? Or why did the spiders in The Hobbit see Sting.

I. Why does Frodo continue to wear the Ring, when moving the boat betrays his presence and location just as if he himself was still visible?

See G. And Frodo wouldn’t have time to take off the Ring after Sam fell in the water – hurried…


J. Where else, and in what contexts, do we see Frodo acting as Sam’s ‘father’ or elder guardian?

“Sam! Time!” – Frodo draws Sam out of the cellar (after Sam had said goodbye to the beer-barrel).


K. Of all the authorial choices about how to get these two together on their journey East, why stage the near-drowning of Sam?

Shows Sam’s loyalty to Frodo to put himself in harm’s way and his determination not to leave his friend and master. I think a good authorial choice and a great way to end Book II.

Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
-JRR Tolkien


Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 22 2015, 9:26pm

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"...he drew me out of deep waters" [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragorn catches up to Sam at the lawn with the stone and the rowan trees, which Frodo took some time to get to while wandering up the hill of Amon Hen earlier that morning.
A. If a Ranger runs twice as fast as a hobbit, say 9 mph vs 4.5 mph, and the distance to the upper lawn from Parth Galen is, say, a mile, then how much time had passed until Aragorn chewed out Boromir and began to run after Sam?


About thirteen minutes.


Aragorn orders Sam to follow him to the top of the hill, saying “none of us should be alone”. But exhilarated by spotting Frodo’s tracks and by the prospect of trying the Seat of Seeing while also doing his duty of finding Frodo, the Ranger leaves Sam far behind almost immediately. And that is the last we see of Aragorn in this volume of The Lord of the Rings.
B. How does Aragorn, in this chapter, stack up to the occasional criticism of him as “perfect hero”?


”A sudden panic or madness seemed to have fallen on the Company” seems to include Aragorn.


C. Why doesn’t Aragorn see Frodo’s tracks coming back down the hill?

He’s tracking Sam, he’s bee-lining for the Seat of Seeing, and since he’s running he’s viewing the ground from only one angle so the prints downward may be obscured due to the direction of light at that time of day.


Sam reasons through what happened between Boromir and Frodo, inferring that the episode spurred Frodo to start out for Mordor, alone.
D. Why is Sam certain that Frodo has decided to head for Mordor and the Fire, rather than to claim the Ring for his own, or to “fling it in the river and bolt”?


He knows Frodo.


Thinking it through even further, Sam realizes that Frodo will need a boat to cross the river, and “like lightning” heads for the boats himself.
E. Shouldn’t Aragorn (or Boromir) have thought through Frodo’s plight with the same logic, and deputed himself or someone (maybe even Sam) to guard the boats?


“A sudden panic or madness…”


Running as fast as he can to catch up with Frodo, “Sam fell and cut his knees.”
F. Ow. How often and where does anyone else stumble, fall, or trip and cut, bruise, or otherwise damage themselves in this heroic epic?


One does not simply walk into Mordor.


Sam sees a supernatural vision that occurs nowhere else in the stories, as far as I can tell: an object being moved by an invisible wearer of the Ring, so that it appears to move by itself.

G. To what degree is this episode, with Sam “gazing, stock-still, gaping” at the impossibly sliding boat, and the exchange “Now take my hand!” “I can’t see your hand.” “Here it is.”, a “light-hearted” and inappropriate use of the Ring’s invisibility power?


It’s more a demonstration of the impracticality of the use of the Ring in a group. The Ring is best used by a lone individual as Bilbo mostly used it in The Hobbit. When used within a group, as Bilbo tried at BoFA and Frodo did here, the results can be potentially deadly, for Bilbo then and Sam now. So we might consider that if indeed Frodo had gone into Mordor alone he probably would have used the Ring frequently, perhaps almost constantly, with unforeseen results possibly including almost certain detection by the Enemy and/or an increased rate of corruption leading to Frodo claiming the Ring before he even entered Mordor. In any case, by accompanying Frodo Sam countered the Ring’s growing influence on Frodo, if only long enough for Frodo to make it to Mount Doom.

Tolkien is subtle.


H. Why are Frodo’s clothes invisible, but not the boat – or the paddle?

One might argue because they are Elven made. After all, Sting was made by the Elves of Gondolin and the spiders only saw it when the invisible Bilbo drew it: ”The spiders saw the sword, though I don’t suppose they knew what it was…" (-Flies and Spiders). (But why it was invisible in the invisible scabbard is yet another question.) But the Elven hood and cloaks are Eldar-made. However they were made to be ”a great aid in keeping out of the sight of unfriendly eyes, whether you walk among the stones or the trees”. But then Sam’s eyes aren’t unfriendly, and Frodo is not among stones or trees. So “Eldar made” doesn’t seem to be the answer.

One might wonder if Tolkien felt morally conflicted about presenting nudity in a children’s book, but the Company bathes and dries naked at the Carrock, and in LOTR the hobbits run naked on the Barrow-downs.

Ultimately it is a Mystery.

BTW, the worst consequence of body-only invisibility for a hobbit:

"Bear in mind," said Kemp, "his food shows. After eating, his food
shows until it is assimilated. So that he has to hide after eating.”

-HG Wells, The Invisible Man


I. Why does Frodo continue to wear the Ring, when moving the boat betrays his presence and location just as if he himself was still visible?

Ask the Ring.


A lot of commentary on Frodo and Sam’s relationship notes how Sam acts as Frodo’s ‘mother’ or care-giver, drawing on the example of British manservants both in the War and in peacetime. Yet here it is Sam who is depicted as a desperate and panicked child; I especially am struck by the parental figures in “Frodo was just in time to grasp Sam by the hair”, “Fear was staring in his round brown eyes.” and “’Don’t pinch, lad! I won’t let you go.”
J. Where else, and in what contexts, do we see Frodo acting as Sam’s ‘father’ or elder guardian?


'Mr. Frodo, sir!' cried Sam quaking. 'Don't let him hurt me, sir! Don't let him turn me into anything unnatural!

'I shall have to go. But' – and here he looked hard at Sam – 'if you really care about me, you will keep that dead secret. See? If you don't, if you even breathe a word of what you've heard here, then I hope Gandalf will turn you into a spotted toad and fill the garden full of grass-snakes.'
Sam fell on his knees, trembling.

-The Shadow of the Past

”But you are my heir: all that I had and might have had I leave to you. And also you have Rose, and Elanor; and Frodo-lad will come, and Rosie-lass, and Merry, and Goldilocks, and Pippin; and perhaps more that I cannot see. Your hands and your wits will be needed everywhere. You will be the Mayor, of course, as long as you want to be, and the most famous gardener in history; and you will read things out of the Red Book, and keep alive the memory of the age that is gone. so that people will remember the Great Danger and so love their beloved land all the more. And that will keep you as busy and as happy as anyone can be, as long as your part of the Story goes on.”
-The Grey Havens

Though frankly I tend to view Blbo as their father figure, and Frodo as Sam as brothers, Say, Moses and Aaron, but that’s probably just me.


K. Of all the authorial choices about how to get these two together on their journey East, why stage the near-drowning of Sam?

I could talk about Moses washing and anointing Aaron, or Jesus walking on water and reaching down to save Peter from drowning, but I'll go with David in the Wilderness:

He reached down from on high and took hold of me; he drew me out of deep waters.
-Psalm 18:16


Frodo and Sam debate in reasonable tones about how and why Frodo must go alone, or how and why Sam must accompany him.
L. What does this exchange bring out about the two hobbits’ relationship, that we didn’t know or understand before?


Sam is tenacious, and Frodo really seems to have a soft spot for him.


M. Should we expect more drama: Yelling? Crying? The emergence of hitherto repressed feelings?

Time’s a’wasting. Some of the others may show up.


Sam says he’s all packed, as “I thought we should be off today.” Yet the company only arrived the night before, and have been traveling from campsite to campsite on a daily basis for weeks.
N. How is Sam “all ready” to go with Frodo in a way the others, it seems, would not be?


Sam learned from the last time the Fellowship had to stop and take time to sort through all its accumulated junk:

Sam burst into tears, and fumbled with the straps, unlading all the pony's packs and throwing them on the ground. The others sorted out the goods, making a pile of all that could be left behind, and dividing up the rest.
-A Journey in the Dark


Frodo laughs and is “glad, I cannot tell you how glad” to realize that “we were meant to go together.”
O. Yet Frodo fought as hard as he could to escape Sam and leave him behind – or didn’t he?


Of course he did, but “The best-laid schemes o' mice an' hobbits/ Gang aft agley.”


Once again something is presented by the characters as being “meant to be.” The passive voice disguises the actual expression, which is that “Someone meant this to be.”
P. Who is the “someone” the characters conceive of when they say this?


Life, the universe, everything.


This is not an original observation, but religion originates in humanity’s perception that there is a fate or an intent in the way events play out. We humans pray to the agent or agents that we think can affect our fates, hoping to influence that agent to our benefit.
P. Why doesn’t Frodo take a second to thank Eru, or the Valar, for the blessing of being given Sam as a companion on the road to Mordor?


“Thank you, Eru, for sending Sam along with me on a fool’s errand that’s already got Gandalf killed, and that will probably get Sam killed, me killed, and, when the ring is back on Saruon’s finger, everybody else killed.”

Um, no.


Sam contradicts Frodo’s rational but glum assessment that they will never see their friends again.
Q. Is this the author reassuring us that although the story will get scary, in fact there will be a happy ending?


Or assuring himself a spare hobbit so he can kill one when it’s time to prove how serious the situation is.


The struggle with the current, to avoid being swept over the falls, is described dramatically and concisely.
R. How could Frodo the hobbit, barely helped by Sam, fight a strong current when we’ve already seen that the Men find the boats hard to handle in fast water?


"These boats are light-built, and they are crafty and unlike the boats of other folk. They will not sink, lade them as you will; but they are wayward if mishandled.”

Indeed, one suspects Boromir’s boat wouldn’t have gone over the falls if it hadn’t wanted to.


We have seen Strider, the greatest huntsman and tracker of the age, get lost or misdirected in unfamiliar territory at least twice already. But Sam and Frodo set off into the hills, “seeking a path” to Mordor.
S. Does Frodo have a map, a compass, or merely a photographic memory and an excellent sense of direction?


And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night.
-Exodus 31:21


This book ends in a very low-key way, I think.
T. Which of the six books of LotR end in cliff-hangers, and which with resolutions?


He heard and saw no more.

Then shouldering their burdens, they set off, seeking a path that would bring them over the grey hills of the Emyn Muil, and down into the Land of Shadow.

As he fell slowly into sleep, Pippin had a strange feeling: he and Gandalf were still as stone, seated upon the statue of a running horse, while the world rolled away beneath his feet with a great noise of wind.

Frodo was alive but taken by the Enemy.

And his thought fled far away and his eyes saw no more.

'Well, I'm back,' he said.



I have heard that there is a debate about which two towers The Two Towers is supposed to refer to.
U. Doesn’t this epilogue put that debate to rest?


"The Two Towers" gets as near as possible to finding a title to cover the widely divergent Books 3 and 4; and can be left ambiguous - it might refer to Isengard and Barad-dûr, or to Minas Tirith and B; or Isengard and Cirith Ungol.
-Letter #140


V. Is “the end of the mission of the Ring-bearer” the best way to sum up Book 6?

How about “The end of the Ring-bearer”?


W. In the non-trilogy editions, do Tolkien's two mid-volume epilogues disappear, or get extended to the additional volume breaks, or are they left in as part of the author's original text?

Yes, no, sometimes.


Thanks for everybody’s participation and all the excellent thoughts and responses so far! It’s been a pleasure, as always, to really read a chapter in order to craft a good discussion in the company of the Reading Room.

Here ends the second part of the Sixth discussion of the War of the Ring.
X. Any questions?


Where’s the pie?

******************************************

I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


squire
Half-elven


Jun 23 2015, 1:51am

Post #9 of 16 (2943 views)
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I wish you'd take second breakfast without wearing the Ring - uuulp!! [In reply to] Can't Post

A.... how much time had passed until Aragorn chewed out Boromir and began to run after Sam? About thirteen minutes.

"Close, but no cigar," cackled the wizard. Sam would take 13 odd minutes to run a mile, but Aragorn would take half that, or just less than 7 minutes, to catch up with him. Thus the scene we read as
‘An hour since he vanished!’ shouted Sam. ‘We must try and find him at once. Come on! ‘
‘Wait a moment!’ cried Aragorn. ‘We must divide up into pairs, and arrange-here, hold on! Wait! ‘
It was no good. They took no notice of him. Sam had dashed off first. ...
‘We shall all be scattered and lost,’ groaned Aragorn. ‘Boromir! I do not know what part you have played in this mischief, but help now! ...I shall return soon.’
which is about a minute or two at most of dialogue and action, must have taken over six minutes to play out. Or not. I know it's unfair to task Tolkien with these juvenile middle-school math problems but that's the kind of unfair middle-school math teacher I am.

C. Why doesn’t Aragorn see Frodo’s tracks coming back down the hill? ... the prints downward may be obscured due to the direction of light at that time of day.
I like that. I don't believe it - because as already noted by another respondent, Aragorn in fact spots Frodo's reversing tracks a few minutes later higher up the hill - but I like it. Because it reminds us that tracking, even by Aragorn, is anything but an exact science.

H. Why are Frodo’s clothes invisible, but not the boat – or the paddle? ... "Bear in mind," said Kemp, "his food shows. After eating, his food shows until it is assimilated. So that he has to hide after eating.” -HG Wells, The Invisible Man
Oh, yeah, H.G.Wells gets all scientific on us. But I should think Tolkien had read the book - it's classy sci-fi, which Tolkien had a taste for - and deliberately avoided that kind of nonsense. Yo, Bilbo, I see you or more precisely, I see your second breakfast. My own interpretation of the Ring's invisibility power is not that one is physically invisible as in one's physical tissues are completely transparent, but rather one's self is no longer perceptible to those living in the natural world. It's not that you can't be seen, it's that others can't see you. Tolkien develops this a bit in LotR more so than in The Hobbit, when the wraiths can see Frodo and he can see Glorfindel shining at the Ford. The Hobbit has a supporting detail that LotR ignores, that a Ring wearer is slightly visible in the primal Light of the noonday sun! Tolkien's concept seems to be that there is a shadow plane (the invisible world, to mortals) which the Eldar, and Sauron and the Ringwraiths, exist in and are able to see in. The Ring translates mortals into this plane, where they don't belong.
The clothing vs. paddle issue remains contentious. Christopher Tolkien said his father concluded that one could distinguish between objects that belonged to the Ring wearer, and objects that were "external" to him. Clothes were in the former class, objects held or carried were in the latter class (HoME VI.17, p. 297 note 13). Oh yeah? In the end, I vote that Tolkien is going with what everybody knows: when you have an invisibility Ring, you and your clothes and your recent lunch are invisible just BECAUSE.

K. Of all the authorial choices about how to get these two together on their journey East, why stage the near-drowning of Sam? I'll go with David in the Wilderness: He reached down from on high and took hold of me; he drew me out of deep waters.
I wouldn't put it past Tolkien for him to have had that verse in mind. I myself think it has to do with hobbits', and Sam's in particular, aversion to water, swimming, boats, etc. For Sam to wade into water over his head after his master, is the ultimate devotion a hobbit can show, which is what Tolkien wanted to bring out here. Sam will risk a fate 'worse than death' - i.e. drowning - to be with Frodo.

P. Why doesn’t Frodo take a second to thank Eru, or the Valar, for the blessing of being given Sam as a companion on the road to Mordor? “Thank you, Eru, for sending Sam along with me on a fool’s errand ... that will probably get Sam killed, me killed, and ... everybody else killed.” Um, no.
I think that's going too far in interpreting Frodo's feelings of thanksgiving. Yes, he knows all that stuff. His point is he's grateful that Sam will be there to share his unpleasant fate with him, and that Sam loves him enough to want to come along. Frodo's simple non-prayer is "I am glad, and this was meant to be" - that's what I would like to see translated into "Thank the Valar, Sam is coming with me." If the Gondorian soldier can invoke the Valar, and Faramir can observe a moment of silence to the Valar, and Sam can sing to Varda in his moment of despair, I'd love to know why Frodo can't invoke the Powers here.

T. Which of the six books of LotR end in cliff-hangers, and which with resolutions?
Thanks for those quotes. As I see it, three books end with cliff-hangers (Frodo at the Ford, Sam in Cirith Ungol, Pippin at the Last Battle) and three end with resolutions (Frodo on his way to Mordor, Pippin on the horse with Gandalf, and Sam coming home). But there's no particular artistic pattern that I can see in such a small sample.

X. Any questions? Where’s the pie?
I can't believe you missed it.

Thanks for all your clever and thoughtful responses!



squire online:
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noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 23 2015, 3:57pm

Post #10 of 16 (2904 views)
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invisibility mechanics [In reply to] Can't Post

It's kinda interesting that the Ring's behaviour (in terms of what it makes invisible) seems to make sense - until analysed. I agree it makes invisible a sort of common-sense concept of a person (including clothes, and things the ring-user might be carrying). But that common-sense breaks down quickly when one thinks of tricksy exceptions. If anything, it's surprising it works so well in the absence of tricksy exceptions!

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

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squire
Half-elven


Jun 23 2015, 5:53pm

Post #11 of 16 (2900 views)
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Don't read the fine print [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I think Tolkien generally has a sound sense of 'devices' and their dangers (as he refers to the Eagles, for instance). The Ring's invisibility power is minimized in The Lord of the Rings, compared to The Hobbit, for a lot of reasons, and the few times it's used it's generally to demonstrate the ironic and eerie dangers of making oneself more visible to various unseen Powers in the world.
That's why I think this quasi-comic scene with Frodo, the boat, and Sam is an slight but still unnecessary mis-step on the author's part: it's about magical invisibility itself, not the difference between the visible and invisible worlds.



squire online:
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Al Carondas
Lorien

Jun 25 2015, 1:58am

Post #12 of 16 (2824 views)
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I feel like Sam running to catch up with the discussion [In reply to] Can't Post

Just picked up the book again after a long while. Mind if I jump in midstream with some scattered thoughts?

D. Why is Sam certain that Frodo has decided to head for Mordor and the Fire, rather than to claim the Ring for his own, or to “fling it in the river and bolt”?

I think that Tolkien is laying the groundwork for chapters to come by developing the characters of Sam and Frodo and showing the nature and depth of their bond. In this case, I agree with Darkstone that Tolkien is showing us that Sam is the one who knows Frodo best.

E. Shouldn’t Aragorn (or Boromir) have thought through Frodo’s plight with the same logic, and deputed himself or someone (maybe even Sam) to guard the boats?

Aragorn is concerned about Frodo's safety - first and foremost. He's worried about orcs on the west side of the river. He wants to find Frodo before anything happens to him in the woods. I don't think he quite gets around to worrying about Frodo stealing off alone in one of the boats. And really, from Aragorn's point of view, doesn't it seem like a rather unreasonable thing for Frodo to attempt? They have all been in this affair together up to this point. They all still trust each other. (remember, Aragorn doesn't know yet the details of Boromir's encounter with Frodo). And trying to go off to Mordor completely alone is such an unwise decision that I doubt it ever crossed Aragorn's mind.

Boromir, on the other hand, is still reeling from his encounter with Frodo. He's not thinking straight to begin with. He just saw someone vanish into thin air, and also he just felt himself consumed by a sudden and inexplicable madness that nearly moved him to theft and betrayal. These are hugely uncharacteristic acts for Boromir. So I think he is initially just befuddled and conflicted. This is the impression I get of him when he returns to the Fellowship. Then, when Aragorn commands him to look to Merry and Pippin, he has no time to do anything else but the job he has been given. Perhaps he thinks that he must not fail these two hobbits the way that he failed Frodo.

F. Ow. How often and where does anyone else stumble, fall, or trip and cut, bruise, or otherwise damage themselves in this heroic epic?

A deliberate attempt by JRRT to demonstrate both Sam's panic and determination. Note the quick follow up to Sam's stumble: "Up he got and ran on." Samwise Honey Badger!

K. Of all the authorial choices about how to get these two together on their journey East, why stage the near-drowning of Sam?

I agree with Squire. This is the payoff for all the previous illustration of Sam's particular aversion to water. He must stop Frodo. Drowning? Honey Samwise don't care!

L. What does this exchange bring out about the two hobbits’ relationship, that we didn’t know or understand before?

Great question. I think it shows just how alienated Frodo feels because of his burden. He is completely torn at this point. It is crazy for him to try to go off alone, and I think he knows it deep down. But he also can't bear to endanger the others via the presence of the Ring, as happened with Boromir. Sam's return is thus dreaded beforehand (to his reason), but so welcomed (by his heart) when it actually occurs...

P. Who is the “someone” the characters conceive of when they say this?

In this case, I don't think the fated feeling that Frodo has is necessarily religious. I think it is more about Frodo realizing that no hobbit is an island, and that it wasn't 'right' for him to attempt this quest alone. In a sort of cosmic, poetic sense. Evil should be overcome through trust and love, not alienation. Just seems wrong to try to go it alone. When Sam proves his worthiness by stopping Frodo from doing so, I think Frodo just feels in his heart the rightness of their going off together.

Or maybe it is another nod to God. I don't know.

Q. Is this the author reassuring us that although the story will get scary, in fact there will be a happy ending?

I think it is the author trying to show us the rift that is opening between the still hopeful Sam and the increasingly desolate Frodo. As well as Sam understands Frodo, he cannot understand the Ring, and that will become increasingly important in the story from here on in.

R. How could Frodo the hobbit, barely helped by Sam, fight a strong current when we’ve already seen that the Men find the boats hard to handle in fast water?

I think their struggle against the current as they set out on their own on the final leg of the quest is a symbolic illustration of their inner struggle to break with the Fellowship.

"Good Morning!"


squire
Half-elven


Jun 25 2015, 2:11am

Post #13 of 16 (2822 views)
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Some great thoughts there [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for weighing in!

I particularly like your take on Boromir: confused as to what happened to himself, to break faith and oath and attack a companion he'd been delegated to protect. The question of Boromir's repentance, whether it was complete and honest, must (I suppose) be left to the discussion of the next chapter.

Also a great point about the rift between Frodo and Sam as the Ring begins to take over Frodo. But I'm not sure that's what's happening here (in the scene at Parth Galen). At this point, I don't think Frodo's decisions are being influenced by the Ring as an evil force, but by his own conscience as a moral agent.



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Al Carondas
Lorien

Jun 25 2015, 2:38am

Post #14 of 16 (2820 views)
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Thanks, Squire [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you about the Ring, by the way. I didn't mean to suggest that Frodo is being directly influenced by the Ring. Just that he is starting to feel alienated from everyone else, including Sam, because he is beginning to appreciate the true danger and power of the Ring in a way that he knows only a ringbearer can.

"Good Morning!"


sador
Half-elven


Jul 2 2015, 12:23pm

Post #15 of 16 (2704 views)
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"You know he's moving fast, [In reply to] Can't Post

...But he's still going slow,
He's ahead in the race,
And there is not far to go,
And your load is so heavy
And your legs want to rest.
It's all right."

- The Moody Blues, The Tortoise and the Hare.


A. If a Ranger runs twice as fast as a hobbit, say 9 mph vs 4.5 mph, and the distance to the upper lawn from Parth Galen is, say, a mile, then how much time had passed until Aragorn chewed out Boromir and began to run after Sam?
Oh, please!

I see that Darkstone had made the calculation, and I'm not even checking it.

B. How does Aragorn, in this chapter, stack up to the occasional criticism of him as “perfect hero”?

Quote
And if I only could,
Make a deal with God,
And get him to swap our places,
Be running up that road,
Be running up that hill,
Be running up that building.

Well, he's trying. But so far, the deal isn't working out.

C. Why doesn’t Aragorn see Frodo’s tracks coming back down the hill?
Well, that corresponds to the question how come Frodo didn't run across anyone when going down.
It is possible that Frodo just trod on something on his way up, and not down? I don't know that much about tracking.

D. Why is Sam certain that Frodo has decided to head for Mordor and the Fire, rather than to claim the Ring for his own, or to “fling it in the river and bolt”?
I don't think it occurs to Sam that Frodo might claim the Ring - or surrender it to Sauron, either. He holds too much trust in Frodo's inherent goodness and wisdom.

E. Shouldn’t Aragorn (or Boromir) have thought through Frodo’s plight with the same logic, and deputed himself or someone (maybe even Sam) to guard the boats?
Yes, for sure.
As a matter of fact, once there are orcs nearby - the boats must have been guarded anyway.
Chalk that down for another sign of incompetence; unless they had an implicit trust in the boats that they would conceal themselves?



F. Ow. How often and where does anyone else stumble, fall, or trip and cut, bruise, or otherwise damage themselves in this heroic epic?
Again, you have here two able cataloguers of trivia, which I won't try to emulate.

I do expect it happened, but never anything serious - so Tolkien discreetly ignored it; except for here, in which it was important to show Sam's single-mindedness.
Just like the Fellowship probably suffered from itches, sore throats, and any number of bodily pains and needs; but these are not relevant to this pre-post-modern story.
Now, had James Joyce been the author...

G. To what degree is this episode, with Sam “gazing, stock-still, gaping” at the impossibly sliding boat, and the exchange “Now take my hand!” “I can’t see your hand.” “Here it is.”, a “light-hearted” and inappropriate use of the Ring’s invisibility power?
Why inappropriate?


H. Why are Frodo’s clothes invisible, but not the boat – or the paddle?
Well, the mechanics of invisibility are a bit unclear.

I would guess the boat is not born by Frodo, but bears him - had he worn the Ring toogether with Sam, do you suggest Sam would be invisible too, or would he appear to be gliding on the water? - but the paddle is a good question; unless it is attached to the boat, it should be considered carried by Frodo.

But then you have that old story about Farmer Maggot - which I can only suppose that whatever was seen before Frodo took it, remained visible; but nobody saw Frodo! Isn't this a bit like a tree which falls in a forest making no sound?

Another possibility is that things which Frodo carries while wearing the Ring become invisible with him, but not others - so if Bilbo put on his Ring before donning his helmet in the Battle of Five Armies, would the helmet be visible?

So I return to the first guess; or else we have to revert to the "rule-breaking" option, that Tolkien simply didn't think this out fully. But then, who else did?

I. Why does Frodo continue to wear the Ring, when moving the boat betrays his presence and location just as if he himself was still visible?
Because he plans to keep in on the other side, or else he finds it difficult to take it off.

J. Where else, and in what contexts, do we see Frodo acting as Sam’s ‘father’ or elder guardian?
Well, he does commend him to the Gaffer, as having given perfect satisfaction.

K. Of all the authorial choices about how to get these two together on their journey East, why stage the near-drowning of Sam?
To force Frodo to take the Ring off (following my idea).

Or to end this volume with a comic note, to mitigate the cliffhanger (following yours).


L. What does this exchange bring out about the two hobbits’ relationship, that we didn’t know or understand before?
Hmm... the only thing I might think of is Frodo's actual attachment to Sam (we knew well-enough the other side); but wasn't this expressed already a couple of pages ago, when Frodo decided to leave alone?

M. Should we expect more drama: Yelling? Crying? The emergence of hitherto repressed feelings?
I like it better as is.
Although Jackson's version isn't that bad.

N. How is Sam “all ready” to go with Frodo in a way the others, it seems, would not be?
Well, he probably did guess a long time before that Frodo meant to leave alone; to the others, it seems to have been just another stop on the road. For instance, Sam probably picked up an extra coil of rope, and set the food bags all ready, and the waterbottles full.

But then again, as a batman (or valet?), he was probably used to preparing everything in a way the other members of the Fellowship were not.

O. Yet Frodo fought as hard as he could to escape Sam and leave him behind – or didn’t he?
So? He didn't realise they were meant to go together back then!

Frodo has learned - from Bilbo, Gandalf, Gildor, Elrond - to trust in Eru and His providence; once he recognises it, he is glad.

And of course, nobody really wants to go to Mordor all alone.

P. Who is the “someone” the characters conceive of when they say this?
The Author.
(by which I've meant Him the Silmarillion calls 'Eru', and appendix A 'The One')

P (ii). Why doesn’t Frodo take a second to thank Eru, or the Valar, for the blessing of being given Sam as a companion on the road to Mordor?
For instance, who says he can?
Prayer is seen as a special Grace, that we are allowed to give thanks, praise, or present our supplications to God. It is not so obvious that everyone is allowed to pray; some religions grant this privelege just to a few, if any.

When Tolkien wrote that Middle-earth was deviod of religion, he did not means there was no faith - he meant there was no way of initiating contact with the Divine.
Was this a part of his own faith? Do Catholics believe that before Jesus, this Grace was denied and prayer was unanswered? Surely not in full, as they do accept the Old Testament (as Christians call it), in which the Patriarchs and Prophets clearly do pray.

Anyway, Middle-earth is in this kind of spiritual limbo.

Q. Is this the author reassuring us that although the story will get scary, in fact there will be a happy ending?
He did so already, however cryptically, in the Prologue. And at the beginning of The Shadow of the Past.
In this case - well, not really; he only shows Sam as an optimist.


R. How could Frodo the hobbit, barely helped by Sam, fight a strong current when we’ve already seen that the Men find the boats hard to handle in fast water?
These are Elvish boats!

Magic-schmagic, I saying.

Although they didn't really have to fight against the current; as Darkstone pointed out, it would naturally carry them to the East shore; all they had to do was to avoid being carried to far to the South.

S. Does Frodo have a map, a compass, or merely a photographic memory and an excellent sense of direction?

As we will see in Book IV, no. But he believes.


T. Which of the six books of LotR end in cliff-hangers, and which with resolutions?
Book I - seems like a resolution, but not entirely clear.

Books II & III - you might call it resolutions; at least the decisions what to do next are made - and then we have a full book to see if and how they play out.
Books IV & V- definite cliffhangers.

U. Doesn’t this epilogue put that debate to rest?
I used to think so; then it was pointed out to me that Tolkien himself had his misgivings.
See the discussion here (especially in visualweasel's response).

V. Is “the end of the mission of the Ring-bearer” the best way to sum up Book 6?
It seems odd, seeing that there are still two-thirds of the chapter to go.
Unless you see the recovery of the Shire as a part of his mission.

W. In the non-trilogy editions, do Tolkien's two mid-volume epilogues disappear, or get extended to the additional volume breaks, or are they left in as part of the author's original text?
In the 50 years anniversary edition, no, they do not.

X. Any questions?
Where are the refreshments?


Thank you, squire, for another of your eye-opening discussions!



tgshaw
The Shire

Jul 4 2015, 3:13pm

Post #16 of 16 (2667 views)
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spiritual limbo [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

P (ii). Why doesn’t Frodo take a second to thank Eru, or the Valar, for the blessing of being given Sam as a companion on the road to Mordor?
For instance, who says he can?
Prayer is seen as a special Grace, that we are allowed to give thanks, praise, or present our supplications to God. It is not so obvious that everyone is allowed to pray; some religions grant this privelege just to a few, if any.

When Tolkien wrote that Middle-earth was deviod of religion, he did not means there was no faith - he meant there was no way of initiating contact with the Divine.
Was this a part of his own faith? Do Catholics believe that before Jesus, this Grace was denied and prayer was unanswered? Surely not in full, as they do accept the Old Testament (as Christians call it), in which the Patriarchs and Prophets clearly do pray.

Anyway, Middle-earth is in this kind of spiritual limbo.

___________________

No, that wouldn't be Catholic belief.
From what I understand of what Tolkien wrote about the Númenoreans, after their temple on Númenor was destroyed they believed they had no way to worship Eru. I think that was just their belief, not the actual truth, but because they believed it that's how they acted. And hobbits, who learned a lot from those Men when they were becoming "civilized," probably would have picked up that sense. A "spiritual limbo" is a very good phrase, I think, although that situation would have been from the human side, not God's side.


 
 

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