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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The attention to detail is amazing in these films!
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Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien


Jun 19 2015, 11:04pm

Post #1 of 82 (2977 views)
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The attention to detail is amazing in these films! Can't Post

I was watching the Sons of Durin Scene, and I realized while I was looking at Erebor that Smaug's Claw Marks were there, you can see it near 2:07, near the Top Left Corner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gleorTAQ3AM

"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."

(This post was edited by Hobbity Hobbit on Jun 19 2015, 11:06pm)


DainPig
Gondor


Jun 19 2015, 11:37pm

Post #2 of 82 (2811 views)
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Yeah, nice observation [In reply to] Can't Post

The marks were there since the first attack that destroyed the kingdom

How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jun 20 2015, 12:39am

Post #3 of 82 (2775 views)
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That's Definitely one of the Main JOYS of..Multiple viewings. [In reply to] Can't Post

..
Forget the Characters..
Check out the Backgrounds.!

A couple to things if people watch your GREAT Link, NOW!.

1. The Head Butt between Thorin & Kili?
Echoes Balin & Dwalin's.. in BagEND.

{BUT is Also has a "Maori Reference" for Kiwi's}

2. "The Flying Wedge", where Thorin leads his tiny company into
the desperate Suicide Run..FINALLY? entering the Battle.

This Maneuver, is used in the Sport of Rugby, NZ's Futball.
another KIWI reference.

WHICH are GREAT WINKS {!} to his Country
who tried really Hard to entertain the REST
of our World.

{DAMN the Naysayers,
FULL Speed ahead SIR PJ}
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"

(This post was edited by Bombadil on Jun 20 2015, 12:40am)


Bofur01
Lorien


Jun 20 2015, 9:03am

Post #4 of 82 (2648 views)
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Shame the bell from 10 seconds ago disappears... [In reply to] Can't Post

And Thorin's shield appears and disappears...


Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien


Jun 20 2015, 1:10pm

Post #5 of 82 (2592 views)
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I was talking about the detail of the CGI... [In reply to] Can't Post

not the continuity.

There are many continuity problems in most movies. The same thing happens in Lord of the Rings, the pieces of the axe keeps disappearing and reappearing throughout. Denethor runs from the Tomb of Denethor, off a long bridge and past the White Tree (which would most likely take 10 minutes) while he was a lit on fire with oil. One of the Hobbit's feet came off in a scene, I have to re-look at it.

What do you mean his shield disappears? I might have not noticed it, but I'm pretty sure he's holding it the whole time. The bell most likely recedes, but I'm not sure, it does look a bit odd when you concentrate on it, but you aren't really supposed to. It took about 5 seconds for the bell to go backwards, with it being slowed by the hitting of the wall, and 3 seconds pass between, so it would most likely seem that it would have gone back into the shadows. Not saying it doesn't look weird, it isn't anything new to cinema though.

"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."


Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien


Jun 20 2015, 1:22pm

Post #6 of 82 (2583 views)
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Never knew that [In reply to] Can't Post

about The Flying Wedge! I believe Thorin charges in a similar way to the chapter on the Durins in the ROTK Appendixes.

If you have ever seen smoke from factories, it look's a lot like Smaug's Attack, the CGI was absolutely amazing, they put all the smoke there and put all the details of the wood.

Also, in the Forge Scene, in the Fall of Gondolin they poured molten metals on invading dragons, and the scene was also symbolic.

If you look on the Appendixes for the Movie, they aged Smaug, which was really cool!

The Tauriel and Arwen lines were repeated in the healing scenes, so it sounded kind of like a spell!

Beyond the Forest and The Feast of Starlight are a mix of Khuzdul, and Sindarin to show the openness of the characters.

"Hae ephadron (Sindarin)
theri thaur (Khuzdul)
am na dhû
ias fîr i ambar
A trehil i 'alad 'lân uir tri 'wilith"

"I go walking
Beyond the forest
Where the world falls away
And the white light
Of forever fills the air"

If you look on the shots where Azog is high on Ravenhill, you can see everything in the battle, to the trolls carrying catapults and shooting them into Dale (not talking about the scene, just when you see Azog on Ravenhill), numerous troops fighting, arrows, and other things flying around. It's well detailed, it reminds me of a game a friend plays (Total War).

"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."


Gandalf the Green
Rivendell

Jun 21 2015, 7:22am

Post #7 of 82 (2426 views)
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No [In reply to] Can't Post

This 'attention to detail' thing you speak of can only be applied to some things like this. Continuity-wise, they missed the mark on the most logical and easiest of things, so an overall attention to detail is quite severely lacking in this trilogy.


Azaghâl
Lorien


Jun 21 2015, 11:05am

Post #8 of 82 (2392 views)
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If only that attetion to detail had been put into the storytelling and character development. [In reply to] Can't Post

FrownWink

*Baruk khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!*


lonelymountainhermit
Lorien


Jun 21 2015, 2:11pm

Post #9 of 82 (2368 views)
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Why would they waste their time with that? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 21 2015, 2:58pm

Post #10 of 82 (2363 views)
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What would have been really amazing attention to detail... [In reply to] Can't Post

Really amazing attention to detail would have been if the tapestry that Bard found in Lake-town reflected the birthyears of Thorin and his siblings in terms of the film-canon! Also, if Ravenhill on Thorin's map reflected where we see it in the actual movie (although we can excuse that if the alteration had not been made yet in Peter Jackson's plans).

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien


Jun 21 2015, 3:36pm

Post #11 of 82 (2342 views)
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Can you please name? [In reply to] Can't Post

What details are lacking?

"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."


Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien


Jun 21 2015, 3:47pm

Post #12 of 82 (2335 views)
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Their birthyears are book-canon on the tapestry... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ravenhill was moved like you said, and there are continuity problems with the tapestry, but that is still very detailed. Though we don't know what their true birthyears are because the events and years have been moved around, we don't know necessarily because everything that happened over 17 years happened in less than a month in the Shire and Dol Guldur was moved to during The Hobbit (which makes sense, because it would be a lot more interesting then to see Gandalf and the White Council talk for awhile two-three different times in each movie.

The movie isn't perfect, but you guys are really not seeing the point. There is detail in all of the CGI, even if it doesn't turn as well as you would have wanted to be. There is a difference between visual appearance and detail. Something can be very ugly, but still be very detailed. This is the same with music, I'm talking here about the CGI, the Music, and how well things some things are here.

You guys do say that most of the threads here are complimenting the movies, but we usually do get slammed by other people who don't like the movies and off this site is pretty much wild territory. You didn't get the movie you wanted, but many of us did, and people like me and Bombadil see the effort. They did put effort into it, even if you didn't like how it turned out. You guys should watch the Appendixes, but I doubt you will which is understandable. I wouldn't want to be around something I hate either. But it's really annoying when something I intend to praise gets completely changed for people just to slam things. I'm not blaming you yourself, but all of you guys. I do get that you guys want to debate about your feelings sometimes, but it's not debating here, it's just showing pure hatred. I like these forums because there are strong rules and people are a lot nicer than before. Whereas if I go to places like IMBD, I get comments like "go die" in places where I wouldn't name. And I get a lot of insults and curse words too, just because I like The Hobbit and to be honest, people who love The Hobbit also do the same to other people, and that's why I like it here.

P.S.

I'm sorry about what I posted above, looking at it, it sounds a little bit rude. But seriously, what would you change that has to do about the detail of CGI and music?

"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."

(This post was edited by Hobbity Hobbit on Jun 21 2015, 3:53pm)


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Jun 21 2015, 6:43pm

Post #13 of 82 (2269 views)
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Is it a month, though? [In reply to] Can't Post

I may be misremembering, but when I saw FOTR, I just assumed that an indeterminate period of time had passed - but not specified. And when we get to ROTK, we find out how far places like Minas Tirith are from the Shire, so we realise (if we haven't read the book) that a significant period of time must have passed between Gandalf going off and returning. I'd probably have assumed at least 6 months to a year, or even longer. Given that our characters age differently to humans, as a book first person, I'm happy to assume that 17 years passed when I watch that part of the film. Or is there something specific that I've forgotten about that contradicts this?


In Reply To
Though we don't know what their true birthyears are because the events and years have been moved around, we don't know necessarily because everything that happened over 17 years happened in less than a month in the Shire and Dol Guldur was moved to during The Hobbit (which makes sense, because it would be a lot more interesting then to see Gandalf and the White Council talk for awhile two-three different times in each movie.


"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jun 21 2015, 6:51pm

Post #14 of 82 (2266 views)
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Remind me on Ravenhill. [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember talking about this before BOFA was available on DVD but it appears that Ravenhill is in the same place as in AUJ and on the map. The label is at the end of the spur, rather than written across it, but that seems to be the style of the map.

Remind what the trouble was?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 21 2015, 8:40pm

Post #15 of 82 (2233 views)
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Exactly [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Their birthyears are book-canon on the tapestry...


Yes, they are. However, those years are not consistent with the film-canon where Thorin is a bit younger than he was in the book (and allegedly a little younger than Dwalin) and the dragon invaded Erebor at a more recent (but unspecified) date. We are told in the extended edition Appendices that the Battle of Moria (Azanulbizar) still takes place in TA 2799, but we have no confirmation of that in the films themselves.


Technically, the ages of all the other Dwarves on the tapestry could be correct as given. It is only those for Thorin and his brother and sister that would need to be altered to be internally consistent with the movies.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 21 2015, 8:54pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 21 2015, 8:50pm

Post #16 of 82 (2226 views)
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Ravenhill [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I remember talking about this before BOFA was available on DVD but it appears that Ravenhill is in the same place as in AUJ and on the map. The label is at the end of the spur, rather than written across it, but that seems to be the style of the map.

Remind what the trouble was?


If you carefully watch the opening of TH:BotFA when the company is on Ravenhill, watching Smaug's attack on Lake-town, you can tell that it is not in the same location that is shown on the map. Thorin's map has Ravenhill where Tolkien describes it: near the end of the spur of the Lonely Mountain to the west of Dale. The scene with Bilbo and the Dwarves on Ravenhill reveals it to be on a separate outcropping that is between and slightly west of Dale and the Front Gate. The likely cause of the discrepancy is probably because the alterations to the valley were not made until after the prop map was produced.


If we look at the image in the TH:BotFA Visual Companion of Thranduil's map (the one on which Bilbo places the Arkenstone when he presents it to Thranduil and Bard) we can see Ravenhill in its new location.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Elarie
Grey Havens

Jun 22 2015, 12:41am

Post #17 of 82 (2188 views)
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That is an amazing detail [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for mentioning that - I've watched these movies a lot but I never noticed that. I also love the amazingly detailed work that went into these movies, particularly the costumes and props which I would love to see in person, and there's probably a lot that I still haven't noticed. Nice catch!

__________________

Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.

(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jun 22 2015, 6:21am

Post #18 of 82 (2148 views)
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Ravenhills Affect on the story telling [In reply to] Can't Post

O-S I know you are very diligent on detail so if I may I will ask you a question which emerges simply out of the drama.

When I have watched the Ravenhill sequence one matter that I do not understand is how Bolg, his Gunderbad Orcs and the 100 mercenaries arrive from the south.

1) In AUJ the Ravenhill is seen jutting out as a single promontory from the North-South Western spur with Dale further South with a gap between the promontory and dale.

2) IN BOFA in the scene you refer to the topography appears to be the same you can see Dale due South with the Ravenhill keep being relatively at a much higher point. It is so high that they can see over the Western Spur.

3) When The Rams climb up the sheer side of the East face and reach the waterfall in the North East corner they have gained considerable height.

4) Later in the battle the advanced party from the second army which is coming from the South West not the North as Gandalf suggests they seem able to climb up on to the ice field from a relatively high plateau behind Dale. however that relatively high plateau is a deep valley which can be seen from the overlook in DOS. Indeed when Radagast flies over the ice shield and you look back the Ravenhill Keep seems to be set down below the crest of the Western Spur. The army are travelling from the south toward the Ravenhill down a mountain side slope whose ridge on which it first appears is at an even great height. If the army had emerged on the overlook ridge from the west it would make sense but Radgasts fly past from the northerly direction puts it south as does Thorins look over Azog's shoulder during the Ice sheet flight.

Put simply it is as if the geography of the Ravenhill "spur" on the north and south are at odds and the geography west of Dale and South of the Ravenhill spur is "on the move".

I would welcome your thoughts.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jun 22 2015, 6:23am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 22 2015, 6:46am

Post #19 of 82 (2133 views)
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Do Bolg's forces arrive from the south? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've returned the DVD to NetFlix and won't have another physical copy of the movie until the extended edition comes out on Blu-ray.


Azog's army: Do the Were-worms emerge from the western spur or the eastern one? Azog's forces do come from the south, which explains why they need an edge to provide an element of surprise. There is no other way that they could have arrived at the Mountain unseen since they were coming from Dol Guldur.


Bolg's army was coming from Gundabad and had broken ground and ridges to provide them with cover. But it seems to me that they must have climbed over one of the ridges on either side of the valley of Dale; otherwise, they would have been seen from far off. However, the final assault of the goblins in Tolkien's account of the Battle of Five Armies did come from around the eastern spur of Mountain (as did the initial one) and Jackson might have duplicated that for Bolg's attack. The goblin mercenaries could have attacked from one or both ridges, which would also parallel part of the battle in the book.


Ravenhill had to be moved for the films because the original site was miles away from both the Front Gate and from Dale. It was a five-hour hike to get there from the Gate under good conditions (not that constraints of time or distance mean much to Peter Jackson). It also would have been too far away for Azog's signal flags to be useful.


Btw, if you have a copy of Karen Wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-earth there is an excellent illustration on page 113 of the break-down of the Battle of Five Armies from the book. Ravenhill would be approximately where the word 'Elvenking' appears.



"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 22 2015, 7:00am)


dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 22 2015, 7:09am

Post #20 of 82 (2115 views)
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Bolg's army arrives from the north, not the south.... [In reply to] Can't Post

..or at least, Gandalf says they do. Legolas (admittedly not the best guide to direction!) arrives with the news of the second orc army coming from the north. Bilbo asks which way is north and Gandalf says 'Ravenhill'. So Bolg's army is arriving from the north - which seems broadly right to me. Azog's army approaches from a south, south-westish direction, Bolg's from the north. Legolas also says he's heading north to Gundabad when he rides off with Tauriel from the Long Lake.


Milieuterrien
Rohan

Jun 22 2015, 7:33am

Post #21 of 82 (2113 views)
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And Azog's forces arrive from the south/south West [In reply to] Can't Post

... in the movie.

You can see Dain's Dwarves arriving from the east, then running to the south to confront the arrival of the orcs coming from Dol Guldur after diving into the ground before emerging with the help of wereworms

On your map, Dale is not shown nor is Raven Hill

The other change from the book is that Men's take shelter in Dale (instead of taking a pre-war position from a slope of Erebor, the elves taking another slope)

Tolkien put a full army of men ready to fight Thorin dwarves, while P Jackson put a residual laketown population of refugees just searching to save their lives
For P Jackson, Elves were the only ones to really engage against the dwarves, and they did that from the valley facing the gates of Erebor.

The main difference between Tolkien and Jackson is that Jackson had to build the battle scene in order to put it on screen in 2010's blockbusters era.

What I'm not sure about is whether Legolas had to ride North West in order to reach Gundabad and Bolg's army
Apparently Bolg himself arrives from the North West (stepping on Raven Hill), but where the rest of his army come from is not very clear to me.


(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Jun 22 2015, 7:41am)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jun 22 2015, 11:16am

Post #22 of 82 (2078 views)
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I shall have to go and have a peek. [In reply to] Can't Post

But it sounds like I would still point the issue of cartographic style. I'm not sure that the labels are placed so precisely on Thorin's map as to specify how far down the spur the peak lies (though the drawing does suggest a peak part way down, as it goes).

I would point to the label for the lonely mountain by comparison. It doesn't cross any of the drawings themselves and is similarly not a precise marker.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jun 22 2015, 11:38am

Post #23 of 82 (2072 views)
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My Orientation is based on Radagasts arrival [In reply to] Can't Post

HI D.M.,

Tolkien would have marvelled I am reading his letters to Christopher on a Kobo on a train journey with Wi Fi.- that has to be Elvish !!

Have a look at the sequence where Radgast arrives which positions the second army, Dale and The Ravenhill and see what you think I think he is flying away from the mountain (due south) toward the second army.

Well come your thoughts.

My thanks to OS will study your response latter.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 22 2015, 3:01pm

Post #24 of 82 (2034 views)
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Dale and Ravenhill [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
On your map, Dale is not shown nor is Raven Hill


Which is why I described where Ravenhill should be according to Tolkien's description. The locations are labeled, though, on Thorin's map in AUJ and BotFA (orientated so that East is on top):





Jackson (and Fonstad) place Dale a bit closer to the Front Gate, placing the traditional location of Ravenhill to the south-west of the ruins. Jackson places Ravenhill on an outcropping of rock north of Dale, on the west bank of the river.


In Reply To

The main difference between Tolkien and Jackson is that Jackson had to build the battle scene in order to put it on screen in 2010's blockbusters era.


Yes. And to make Ravenhill a useful location in the battle, it had to be moved closer to the action.



In Reply To
What I'm not sure about is whether Legolas had to ride North West in order to reach Gundabad and Bolg's army
Apparently Bolg himself arrives from the North West (stepping on Raven Hill), but where the rest of his army come from is not very clear to me.


The Grey Mountains are to the north, but Gundabad, itself, is where the Grey Mountains and the Misty Mountains intersect. So, it is north, but also about 350 miles to the west.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Roheryn1
The Shire

Jun 22 2015, 3:02pm

Post #25 of 82 (2038 views)
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It's windy in Middle Earth [In reply to] Can't Post

Apart from the battle analysis, I really enjoy the way the characters' hair is always moving, if only slightly, in the breeze. They must have had a wind machine permanently on. Maybe it was also a way to keep the dwarfs cool under their bulky costumes !? Wink

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