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DainPig
Gondor
Jun 19 2015, 2:21pm
Post #1 of 52
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The giant worms exist!
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I know. Many people hated the worm scene in BOTFA.
"They don't exist in Tolkien Mithology!" They said.
But I disagree...
Here's a interesting link. It Take you to Tolkien Gateway, one of the best Middle earth wikis.
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Were-worms
In the first edition of The Hobbit, Bilbo mentioned "were-worms" living on the "Last Desert." So, we have now the source of Peter Jack!
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 19 2015, 3:07pm
Post #2 of 52
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Actually, the were-worms exist in later editions as well. The change is that the first edition gave their origin as China. Most folks on this forum are already well aware that they were at least mentioned by Tolkien.
Tolkien never described the were-worms, but it seems doubtful that they would have been much like the sandworms of Arrakis (Frank Herbert's Dune). He definitely did not indicate that they could be found anywhere close to the region of Rhovanion where the Lonely Mountain is located.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 19 2015, 3:09pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 19 2015, 3:26pm
Post #3 of 52
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I don't think it's any more doubtful that were-worms were as depicted than anything else. We have no information whatever other than their name and that they dwelt (at least but not necessarily only) in a desert. They are a creature of the mind's eye of the reader and very much open to our imagination.
It's also, possibly, a bit rough to say that they were certainly not found anywhere near to Erebor. Whether "East of East" of the Shire or in a proto-China from the pronto - Northern Europe if we were going to guess a location then the far side of Erebor and the Iron Hills would seem to be fairly high on the list, wouldn't it?
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Jun 19 2015, 3:28pm
Post #4 of 52
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I find the interpretation by pj to be too much, we all know worms in tolkiens mythology refers to dragons, so if anything this one line from bilbo must refer to dragon creatures, especially if you add the china reference into the mix.
Im 99 % certain tolkien never envisioned big earth eating underground worms, and to include them into the hobbit films at the battle kinds sums up some of the negative aspects of the films.
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shadowdog
Rohan
Jun 19 2015, 3:39pm
Post #5 of 52
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do we know for a fact that Tolkien used the term were-worms to refer to dragons?
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 19 2015, 3:39pm
Post #6 of 52
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Well, no. Sometimes worms meant dragons and sometimes worms.
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There isn't any merit to suggesting Tolkien always used the word to mean dragon.
I've no idea what Tolkien envisaged, myself, if anything! But that's a bit beside the point for me. What he writes leaves it open for the reader to imagine.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 19 2015, 3:39pm
Post #7 of 52
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Well, it certainly seems that the Last Desert, East of East, would be far even from Erebor; although the description is undoubtedly vague. I'm not even ready to say that the wild Were-worms were meant to represent a real creature of Middle-earth. They may have been an invention of hobbit imagination, or creatures of legend based on a very different reality. What I am relatively sure of is that Professor Tolkien would have been horrified by Peter Jackson's use of the Were-worms in TH:BotFA.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 19 2015, 3:41pm)
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shadowdog
Rohan
Jun 19 2015, 3:41pm
Post #8 of 52
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What Tolkien would have though about Jackson's depiction of the were-worms?
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 19 2015, 3:45pm
Post #9 of 52
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My point would be that if we can take any suggestion of location we are certainly in the right direction. We are not North of North or South of South or in proto-Australia.
I, of course, agree that we know so little that we don't even know whether they were a Hobbity-tale, though I, equally of course, suggest this demonstrates the futility of demanding a specific interpretation!
I've no idea about guessing the thoughts of other people who also happen to be dead!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 19 2015, 3:47pm
Post #10 of 52
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What Tolkien would have though about Jackson's depiction of the were-worms?
It is my personal opinion, but I don't think that it is much of a stretch.
I could be wrong. Tolkien might have loved the Were-worms. But I doubt it.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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brotherbeck
Rivendell
Jun 19 2015, 9:29pm
Post #11 of 52
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It is my personal opinion that the 'were-worms' in The Battle of the Five Armies are like giant middle fingers from the filmmakers straight at the Spirit of Tolkien's writings. The scene with them in the film was the scene that really killed it for me as far as giving the filmmakers the benefit of the doubt.
The same thing happened to me watching The Desolation of Smaug when Legolas was having a brawl with a CGI Bolg in a Laketown that had just been invaded by orcs - it crossed the line for me of adaptation and showed that the filmmakers either don't like the story of The Hobbit very much at all or are simply not concerned even in the slightest with staying true to the spirit of Tolkien's writings.
Yes, we all know that the were-worms are mentioned in the story, and yes, none of us can know for sure what The Professor would think of Peter Jackson's portrayal of the were-worms in the film... but given his concerns of adaptations of his writings he himself expressed in letters, and given the way he predominantly used the word 'worm' in his writings, and given the way the Tolkien Estate feels about these films I think it is fair to say it is a good guess that he would be completely horrified.
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Eruclauron
Bree
Jun 19 2015, 9:55pm
Post #12 of 52
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I read an article a short while back about the Were-worms, and the possibility that they were based on the Mongolian death worm: http://musingsofatolkienist.blogspot.com/2014/12/what-are-were-worms-in-hobbit.html (Sorry, I'm not sure how to make that a link), and personally, that's what I thought of when I first read of the mention of Were-worms in The Hobbit. The article mentions the possibility that they were some kind of dragon as well, but I still prefer the idea of the Were-worms being Middle-earth's own Mongolian death worm.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 19 2015, 9:56pm
Post #13 of 52
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I think the movie worms are a combination of two things Tolkien mentioned.
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One is the Were-worms. The other is "nameless". Gandalf mentions them in his description of his battle with the Balrog.
"We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Gloin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things."
Combine the name of the "were-worms" with the nature of the Nameless Gnawing Things and you might well get something approximating the movie. And if they can be found deep beneath Moria, they might be deep beneath Erebor as well. Gandalf says that even Sauron knows them not, but....what if he did?
Is it a stretch? Sure. But it's also made of elements that are not as completely un-Tolkien as one might think at first glance. There are a lot of glimpses or mentions of strange things in Middle-earth that never get fully explained. For instance, what exactly was the Watcher in the Water? It's no less strange or wild than giant earth-eating Things, except that Tolkien gave it a role and description rather than a single glancing mention.
And of course many of these elements go back to older myths. In Norse mythology, there's the creature Nidhogg, who gnaws at the roots of the World Tree. It is described as a serpent and a dragon. Serpent, of course, is the meaning of the Old English word "wyrm". So we have a creature that is a worm and a dragon.
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
(This post was edited by Silverlode on Jun 19 2015, 9:57pm)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 19 2015, 10:27pm
Post #14 of 52
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The worms help the orcs to pop up into the battle
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And as far as I can see, I don't see them playing another major role.
There was simply no other way for an army to erupt in a cinematically launched feud between elves and dwarves.
None of the rising suspense between Thranduil and Dain would have occured if Elvish scouts with elvish ears and eyes would have seen a full army of orcs coming.
That's simply some of the Tolkien's writings that were difficult to adapt.
If you want hundreds of orcs popping out of nowhere, you have to get them coming from under the ground, and so you have to get gigantic delving creatures.
Does it really hurt that they are a little bit Dunesque ?
I think that was unavoidable.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jun 19 2015, 11:01pm
Post #15 of 52
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Agreed..."These Orc Armies? Where are they?"
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Gandalf had no answer..
to Thranduiel's question.
They Show up
Then leave...
This is a Fantasy,
yet some need an explanation... as if?
This is a real world.
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Jun 20 2015, 3:18pm
Post #16 of 52
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not were but definitely worms
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Worms
probably hundreds of references to the term worm or wyrm to mean serpent or dragon, zero to to actually mean tworms that live underground and eat rocks! anyone who supports this jackson theory or interprets bilbos throw away line in the book i think is completely misguided.
yes there are unknowns in the tolkien world, like the watcher in the water, but that doesnt mean that gives us free reign to start making up whatever we like, it destroys the illusion, less is more.it dilutes the world he created. even the watcher was hidden from view. for a good reason. imagination!
(This post was edited by balbo biggins on Jun 20 2015, 3:21pm)
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shadowdog
Rohan
Jun 20 2015, 4:08pm
Post #17 of 52
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It is important to remember that Bilbo knew little of the world outside of Hobbit lands. Thus his statement about where the were-worms lived would have been vague and not pointing to a particular place we can locate on a map of Middle Earth.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 20 2015, 4:59pm
Post #18 of 52
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So just to check you are actually saying
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That Tolkien never used the word "worm" to refer to worms? Are you kidding?
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Jun 20 2015, 5:08pm
Post #19 of 52
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That Tolkien never used the word "worm" to refer to worms? Are you kidding?
no, im saying he never used the word worm to refer to giant rock eating underground monsters that help orcs.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 20 2015, 5:20pm
Post #20 of 52
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Well at least it wasn't that ridiculous!
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Tolkien uses the word worm to refer both to dragons and to worms. When he uses it in the term were-worm we don't know which he meant, if either.
To suggest he only ever meant dragons is simply incorrect.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jun 20 2015, 5:47pm
Post #21 of 52
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"..The Spirit of Tolkien's Writings..?"
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Who is to say
they know more about what
Tolkien was Thinking
than anyone else................... HERE.?
The Professor had a World-View that is NOTHING
like what ?..the readers of his books have now, 75 years later?
Crashing "PJ's Party" with
Condescending remarks about his
Creativity in "Embellishing" a small book, seems to
Cause some minds to just WALK AWAY feeling
SSOoo..Superior?
Seems some
Students of Tolkien?... find that what PJ created?
really hard to co-exist ..
"The World is a Very Large Place
yet your
Opinion is just a small part of it"
{Para-Phased by someone we all seem to agree on.}
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Jun 20 2015, 6:09pm
Post #22 of 52
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Tolkien uses the word worm to refer both to dragons and to worms. When he uses it in the term were-worm we don't know which he meant, if either.
To suggest he only ever meant dragons is simply incorrect.
i never said he only used the term for dragons, your misquoting me, ill refer you back to my previous post.
and ill put it simply, how many times did tolkien refer to dragons as worms? lots
how many times did he refer stone eating giant underground monsters as worms? ZERO
to conclude, were worms if taken literally and not as hobbit folklore, are most likely a dragon like creature. to jump to any other conclusion , i think, IMO is wrong.
(This post was edited by balbo biggins on Jun 20 2015, 6:15pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 20 2015, 6:40pm
Post #23 of 52
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How often did Tolkien use the word worm for dragons? Lots
How often did Tolkien use the word worm for worms? Lots
So, if we want to assume an etymological basis for an undescribed creature, a were-worm, should we assume worm means dragon or worm? We can't be sure.
That's the top and tail of it. To your circular point we may as well say that clearly were-worms were not dragons as Tolkien never uses that term for dragons elsewhere (but I don't think that would hold any water either!)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 20 2015, 7:17pm
Post #24 of 52
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What a were-worm should be like ?
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Maybe a shape-shifting creature like werewolves or werebears like Beorn.
I Think that Tolkien thought about creatures part-humanoids, and part-worms, digging tunnels.
If PJ's team had had more time to think about it, they might have avoided borrowing Frank Herbert's giant worms
But who did tell them anyway ?
Post-naysayers ?
Bah.
(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Jun 20 2015, 7:17pm)
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lonelymountainhermit
Lorien
Jun 21 2015, 1:31am
Post #25 of 52
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middle fingers are a fitting analogy
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There came a point in the second movie where it barely resembled the source material. It's obvious "The Hobbit" wasn't the movie PJ wanted to make. He should have just wrote and directed his own fantasy story. Then he could have done whatever he wanted,elves getting it on with dwarves, cirque de soliel style barrel scenes, orcs in just about every scene, and no one would have been bothered by it.
(This post was edited by lonelymountainhermit on Jun 21 2015, 1:33am)
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