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AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 19 2015, 12:47am
Post #1 of 14
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De-glorifying the eagles...
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I've seen quite a few complaints online about the eagles turning up again in BoFA and turning the tide. I was thinking about ways that the eagles could be de-glorified, so that they don't feel like an indestructible force that comes out of nowhere and saves the day. I realised there's really only one way it could have been done and that's to show the eagles struggle...
Whenever the eagles show up, they plough through the enemy effortlessly, which makes them seem over-powered. Although it would be a terrible thing to see, I think the film could have benefited from showing the bats swarm together and take down an eagle or two. It would be a very dramatic image to see an eagle covered in bats crashing to the ground and would have helped make the whole thing seem like less of a convenient battle decider.
Any thoughts on this idea?
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Jun 19 2015, 12:48am)
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jun 19 2015, 5:55am
Post #2 of 14
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I was expecting to see exactly what you described. There's still a chance. *fingers crossed*
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jun 19 2015, 7:18am
Post #3 of 14
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One of the great theme's of Tolkiens sub creation is that the Gods are more invested in the unrolling of the vision that Eru revealed to the Ainur than in our modern world of incident and accident.
We the audience and they the participants are part of that story and for some they will be transformed or even lost during that journey. if those whom have been "chosen" hold to the course then the story that was envisioned will be realised. But the Gods recognising the error of the First Age know that there are at "a pinch" moments when they will intervene they sent the Istari to act as a catalyst for good and when the films make a connection directly between the Istari and the Eagles it is an extension of the "Good Will" of the Ainu.
In the LOTR Frodo (and Sam and Aragorn) are transformed by their journeys and Frodo, and later Sam, take ship because of the sanction of the Ainu and they were able to do that because it was granted through the prayer of Arwen (though at different times in book and film) and saved from Mount Doom by Manwe's Eagles, specifically Gwaihir.
In The Hobbit Thorin (and Thrain and even Thror) lose all to bring about their part in the story and of course Bilbo is transformed lost to the world of the trivial and ordinary by his experience. This is a sad and grim tale for the line of Durin and for "Uncle Bilbo" a future of an ever present restlessness. This is the heart of the jeopardy.
For the Eagles to arrive at a pinch when the story is all but over, all the sacrifices have been made just to, in the case of the five armies "tidy things up" makes sense.
If one is driven by this philosophical argument then their intervention would be slightly different. They would appear
in reduced numbers to invest them with a greater sense of specialness. They should be emblematic in the turn of the tide of the battle rather than functional. The turn of the tide should very clearly be the key antagonists death.
As Thorin is dieing.
As in the film at the end of Bilbo's "hardships" which begin when he wakes up.
I would, to help transform the more adult Hobbit toward its destination of Silmarillion and LOTR
Once Radagast has handed over his staff and said goodbye to his friend, as a last act send the Moth.
Introduce Beorn elsewhere his arrival is more Metro Goldwyn Mayer than Tolkien.
Complete their intervention with an exchange between Gwaihir and Gandalf
Bats and flying Elves, canon and non canon would go under the delete button at Mirimar.
I am sure you know this but the Eagles involvement are misunderstood by those whom fail to understand and notice where the real jeopardy is in these stories. They are not "bred for war" they are a fleeting distant ephemeral sign that middle earth has not been overlooked.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jun 19 2015, 7:21am)
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jun 19 2015, 8:37am
Post #4 of 14
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I'd definitely rather not see any such scene. I'm fine with the Eagles the way they are in the films that they appear in – except that more of them should have been shown in the third film, along with more Beorn and several other things. The glimpse of them was a little too fleeting in the last film. 
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Jun 19 2015, 8:39am)
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Shagrat
Gondor
Jun 19 2015, 12:13pm
Post #5 of 14
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When they originally spoke about the eagles being part of the plan rather than a deux ex machina once again, I envisaged them arriving and having an initial impact, only to eventually find their effectiveness diminished as they're overwhelmed by bats or brought down by launching devices. I know it's unpleasant, but these aren't real animals and I think it would have given the story greater impact, not only to see the eagles hurt but realize that they can't always save the day. Then, when all seems lost, Beorn arrives on his own to turn the tide, as that battleplan originally indicated. Them arriving together in the film didn't work, and felt like an afterthought. I'd love for this to be changed in the EE but I very much doubt it.
To be honest, the way Jackson has spoken about the eagles, as though he was fed up with them, I'm surprised he went with what he did. I'd like to think he did it just to save time and will expand on it for the EE, but as I said, I don't hold out any hope.
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Imladris18
Lorien
Jun 19 2015, 1:45pm
Post #6 of 14
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I think a scene with Gandalf (or Radagast) explaining the eagles' situation to Bilbo or the dwarves and why it's a big deal that they even show up at all is all that's needed.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 19 2015, 8:16pm
Post #7 of 14
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I was actually hoping that PJ would add in an aerial battle between the bats and eagles...
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Would have added a completely new dynamic that would have done a lot to set this battle apart from Helm's Deep and Pelennor.
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brotherbeck
Rivendell
Jun 19 2015, 9:08pm
Post #8 of 14
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I think that idea of explaining just the tiniest bit about the Eagles and showing their vulnerability would have gone a long way towards making the climax of the film feel more satisfying and complete. As it stands now the end of the battle is just completely random and choppy. You really need to fill in so much of what is taking place for yourself. The couple seconds we do get of Eagles and Beorn feels so truncated and like an absolute after-thought that they really should have just left it out entirely.
I know the Eagles acting like a deus ex machina repeatedly is one of the big criticisms of the source material for these Tolkien adaptations, but at least Tolkien gave reasons and explanations in his writing. Honestly just one or two quick lines of dialogue explaining that the Eagles are a part of the Wild and act on their own accord would solve the whole problem and also make it more dramatic when they do show up to help.
This whole idea reinforces one of my biggest problems with the entire trilogy, and that is not having a clear script ahead of time and then sticking to it seems to have lead to a film them to lose many of the themes of the original story.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 19 2015, 10:00pm
Post #9 of 14
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I thought there was talk of an aerial battle while the film....
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...was in production.
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 19 2015, 10:48pm
Post #10 of 14
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Audiences would never have appreciated a bigger role for them in the ending, whether Señor Tolkien gave explanations for them or not.
The what-again effect would surely have ruined the end of the journey far more than any of the Alfrid's rantings.
Of course they arrive, then everybody knows that this is an end for the Orcs and that battle.
The core of the fight was set on Ravenhill, a fight getting to its end when all the fighters, both sides, are killed.
There the movie differs widely from the Book, where all the deaths happen in the midst of the scrum, but remember how Gothmog will be killed by Aragorn on Pelennor Fields. We already have that kind of ending elsewhere in the Hexalogy.
I Think Peter Jackson wanted to keep something specific in each of his endings. Not the same colour, not the same place, not the same feeling.
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AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 19 2015, 11:40pm
Post #11 of 14
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My OP was originally a bit longer...
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I did include the quote from PJ saying that the aerial battle would be reminiscent of Great War dogfights, with bats and eagles vying for supremacy. But I didn't want to end yet another thread with "maybe in the EE..." haha
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brotherbeck
Rivendell
Jun 20 2015, 1:17am
Post #12 of 14
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I didn't know the eagles showing up meant the end for the orcs and the overall battle. I was actually confused sitting in the movie theater as to exactly what was going on. My wife even leaned over and asked me what happened, to which I responded "I have no idea" because I didn't pick up on the really small orcs retreating back into their tunnels way off in the background of a shot. It honestly just felt like the movie ran out of time for the battle so they just moved on to the next thing.
If the filmmakers really thought the eagles showing up to save the day again was a bad idea then they shouldn't have used them *exactly* that way. Either cut them completely and end the battle differently or show them struggling a little bit so they don't seem like such all-powerful and super-convenient battle enders.
(This post was edited by brotherbeck on Jun 20 2015, 1:19am)
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jun 20 2015, 6:47am
Post #13 of 14
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A "Dog" Fight by Bats and Eagles
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Thats an interesting concept isn't it 
Thank you for reminding us you are quite right he did talk about echoing first world war air battles. However his emphasis became vignettes and personal intimate battles rather than the broad sweep of the battles of the first Trilogy. That to was a great idea in theory.
I thought the Ravenhill idea was inspired and could have given the third film a unique and singular sequence where Thorin and the Antagonist have the turning point moment. A handful of protagonists in a remote harsh empty location that either end up dead or transformed. I also liked the blending of cinema tradition with Tolkien, the final stand off between Azog and Thorin echoes both Fingolfin/Morgoth and the denouement in "Skyfall" where exactly the same technique is used as a rouse to get the antagonist under water.
With that section completed the tide is turned and the Eagles appear and with their leader dead the enemy is routed and the battle rather like the book in many ways is reduced. However he added more than "Nephews Death/Thorin Death /Antagonist Death and good bye to Bilbo/and Dwalin surviving and that made the denouement to long and left the Eagles/ Beorn/ Radagast section feeling like tokenism especially when some of the second army have already very conveniently arrived in time to do battle with Legolas and Tauriel. Indeed if Beorn and Radagast were not at the funeral they could have been left out of this version of the film with out any loss of story telling. Put simply the second army Eagles section is marginalised and a much simpler Eagles arrive as a sign of completion at the right moment would have worked.
The other really important story that is missing from the battle section comes before the denouement it is the agreed co operation between Dain, Bard and Elves which leads to the crucial geo political healing of the free peoples which is symbolised at "the funeral".
For me the Eagles should remain emblematic as an ending "sign" and the other far more important stories told. I thought the judgement to leave out the dog fight was a good one.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jun 20 2015, 6:59am)
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the 13th warrior
Rivendell
Jun 22 2015, 10:38am
Post #14 of 14
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Let's Give The Eagles Some Credit, Gandalf's Ace in the Hole--"The Istari Squadron"
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Hello Michelle J and others, I'm pondering the eagles debate, if we think about the birds that actually exist here on our earth, I don't see how they would have anything but a supreme advantage in these aerial attacks. Makes their "air war" in the LOTR,Hobbit movies very believable.
In our world, eagles are the "apex predator" - top of the line of their species, no predator above them, making them fearless and confident. They have been known to successfully attack, carry off, rip up and feed on a variety of large mammals, fish, reptiles. Powerful flyers, their ability to hover, pivot, dive, ascend, soar, come to a stop is incredible.
For them to swoop down on orcs pre occupied in heat of battle, not expecting them, and wreak havoc would seem plausible, credible--there is simply no preparation one could make to defend yourself. It's a strafing run by a dozen or so big experienced birds who know what they're doing, when the dumb orc trooper is clueless about "death from the skies." One thing I like about all the eagles sequences in LOTR and Hobbit was the pre-planning between Gandalf, the moth and the eagles. Eagles hovering high over the battle, waiting for the signal, already seeing how troops are arranged, points of attack, final tactical prep. Gandalf seems to have option of being signaled by the moth the birds are ready, or he sends the moth as messenger to get the birds. In a way, that moth is a great aerial hero too. The quiet little recon/intell insect holding the fate of Middle Earth on its furry body and wings.
Gandalf had special relationship with these birds too. Point of pride for the eagles to be called on in their wizard friend's most dire hours, desperate situations. They were intelligent birds; their talking to Bilbo in the book Hobbit indicated smarts, humor, and even a bit of pride. So they knew what the stakes were and how they were the wizard's last best ace in the hole. And it's not like the embattled Free Folk of Middle Earth couldn't use a break too given how much was stacked against them. Perhaps, the eagles had the camaraderie and espirit de corps of elite flying forces in our world history. Gandalf's special "Istari Eagle Squadron" had never failed the wizard and took pride in their record. They also had to switch from attack mode to medic-evac, carrying off Frodo, Sam, the dwarves, injured Thorin etc. Versatile creatures, those birds.
I will agree with some critics who think they make it look a little easy. To re-imagine, perhaps as the Battle of 5 Armies claimed its share of "good guy" victims, an eagle might have been mortally wounded doing something brave, perhaps seizing the fallen and wounded, when it suffered a deadly spear thrust, then in noble final spirit, went kamikaze and crashed into some huge troll forces on its way out. Can you tell I liked "The Battle of Britain" and "Tora Tora Tora" when I was a younger guy?
Just a few aerial tactic thoughts,
The Thirteenth Warrior,
"From the scroll rooms of Gondor..."
(This post was edited by the 13th warrior on Jun 22 2015, 10:41am)
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