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**The Breaking of the Fellowship** - 3. …almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was.

squire
Half-elven


Jun 17 2015, 6:48pm

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**The Breaking of the Fellowship** - 3. …almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Can't Post

Oh, hi! We’re continuing our discussion of the last chapter in Book II of The Lord of the Rings. Frodo has escaped the predation of Boromir by putting on the One Ring and, invisible, runs to the top of Amon Hen, the “Hill of Seeing”.



Frodo’s Vision From Amon Hen (Cor Blok)

3.1 Frodo Views the World from the Seat of Seeing
Summary: Frodo runs to the top of the hill in a panic. He finds the Seat of Seeing, and climbs up to sit in it. His vision is at once obscured by the “world of mist” that the Ring gives entry to, and sharpened so that he sees distant things clearly yet seemingly shrunken. Unconstrained by geography or distance, he views a great sweep of Middle-earth in four directions, from the Misty Mountains to the mouth of the Anduin, and from Isengard to the plains of Rhun. He notes that all these lands are preparing for, or are already at, war. His eye is drawn “unwilling” to Mordor, and he sees the Barad-dur, Fortress of Sauron.

Remember this passage from ‘The Mirror of Galadriel’ two chapters ago:
At once the Mirror cleared and he saw a twilit land. Mountains loomed dark in the distance against a pale sky. A long grey road wound back out of sight. Far away a figure came slowly down the road. … The mist cleared and he saw a sight which he had never seen before but knew at once: the Sea. … Then a wide river flowing through a populous city. Then a white fortress with seven towers. … But suddenly the Mirror went altogether dark… In the black abyss there appeared a single Eye that slowly grew, until it filled nearly all the Mirror. … the Eye began to rove, searching this way and that; and Frodo knew with certainty and horror that among the many things that it sought he himself was one. But he also knew that it could not see him – not yet, not unless he willed it. The Ring that hung upon its chain about his neck grew heavy, … The Mirror seemed to be growing hot … He was slipping forward. ‘Do not touch the water!’ said the Lady Galadriel softly. … He stepped back shaking all over and looked at the Lady. LotR II.7.

Compare it to the present one:
He seemed to be in a world of mist in which there were only shadows: the Ring was upon him. Then here and there the mist gave way and he saw many visions: small and clear as if they were under his eyes upon a table, and yet remote. There was no sound, only bright living images. The world seemed to have shrunk and fallen silent. He was sitting upon the Seat of Seeing, on Amon Hen, the Hill of the Eye of the Men of Númenor. … But everywhere he looked he saw the signs of war. … All the power of the Dark Lord was in motion. Then turning south again he beheld Minas Tirith. Far away it seemed, and beautiful: white-walled, many-towered, proud and fair upon its mountain-seat; its battlements glittered with steel, and its turrets were bright with many banners. Hope leaped in his heart. … eastward, unwilling his eye was drawn. … Then at last his gaze was held: …. he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him.
And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir he threw himself from the seat, crouching, covering his head with his grey hood.
LotR II.9.

Yikes. Consider: the ‘mist’, the ‘seeing’, Minas Tirith, the searching of the Eye, Frodo’s ‘knowing’ what’s going on, the role of the Ring, the placement and purpose of these scenes in the story, and whatever else…
A. How are these scenes different, and how are they alike - and more importantly, WHY?

My impression is that most readers remember the Mirror, and the Palantirs, far more than they do Amon Hen as examples of Tolkien’s far-seeing magics in Middle-earth. Yet Frodo’s experience here is quite remarkable and (to me) seriously magical, especially when we consider these Seats are the work of the Dunedain, not the Elves.
B. What do you think about the relative memorability and “importance” of the Hills of Seeing and Hearing in Middle-earth and the legendarium?

C. Why did Gondor erect these amazing Hearing and Seeing stations, and the colossi of the Argonath, at this point on its borders but (as far as we know: Gap of Rohan, passes of Mordor, etc.) nowhere else?

D. How much do the visions of the War inform Frodo in his actions from now on?

Some of his visions are of the War fought in the North: the Beornings, Lorien, Mirkwood (fell beasts!!). These episodes do not come into the story again (except once or twice by implication, and also in the Appendices).
E. Should the reader expect to be given more information later, as in fact we are given for the events previewed to the West, South, and East?








The Entwash As Seen From Amon Hen (LotR Online)

3.2 Frodo Is Almost Seen By the Eye of the Enemy
Summary: On viewing the Dark Tower of Mordor, Frodo is aware of the Eye of the Enemy. It too senses the vision-spell of the Ringbearer and begins looking for him. Like a finger feeling in the dark, it probes Wilderland, getting closer and closer to knowing exactly where Frodo, and the Ring, is. He is terrified and drops from the seat, hiding and yet in part preparing to surrender his will to the Lord of the Rings. Just then another power sends a thought to him: “Fool, take off the Ring!” Torn almost in two, Frodo has one last second to make a decision, and does so: he takes off the Ring, and the shadow passes over him in the sunlight and fades off to the west.

F. How is it that the Eye does not sleep?

The Eye is trying to “know just exactly where he is”. It misses Frodo, barely.
G. What would have happened if it had found his exact location?

From the text:
He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell.

H. How is it that Frodo cannot know what it is he is crying out loud?

I. Why the use of the odd word – very unhobbitlike – “verily” in Frodo’s (possible) submission?

J. Is this the first time that Frodo sees the “dark side” in himself regarding the Ring?

Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!

K. Is there any reader who doesn’t get who this ‘other point of power’ is?

L. Why then doesn’t Frodo get it, even in retrospect?

Frodo is torn between “the Voice” and “the Eye”, we are told, before he reacquires his own agency.
M. Are we supposed to make the connection with Amon Lhaw, the Hill of Hearing, across the river, and think that the other power is there?

The Voice and the Eye: In The Lord of the Rings, both spoken words and voices, and visual images and sights, are presented at times as having great power.
N. Can Tolkien be said to favor one over the other, in any sense?

Writhing in torture, pierced and torn apart, Frodo is ‘suddenly … free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so.’
O. What is the cause, or who is the agent, of this ‘sudden’ last-second gift of free will?

P. How does this moment compare with Frodo’s dilemma in the Barrow, which Gandalf called “touch and go: perhaps the most dangerous moment of all”?




Frodo on Amon Hen in the Sunlight (Gospodar Prstenova)

3.3 Frodo Resolves to Leave the Company and Go to Mordor Alone
Summary: Frodo, exhausted, is also relieved. The decision has been made for him by Boromir’s fall to the Ring: to travel further with the Company is court another such disaster. He loves his friends too much to lead them to torment and death, and so he decides to go alone. As he descends the hill, he hears cries and realizes the company is looking for him. To stop for explanations and farewells would defeat his resolution, so he puts the Ring back on and, invisible again, silently heads for Parth Galen and the Great River.

Frodo proclaims aloud, “I will do now what I must. … I will go alone. At once.”
Q. Compare his formal tone and diction here to his more famous line later on: ‘I have come, but I do not choose now to do what I came to do.’

As in the example just given, Frodo repeatedly speaks his thoughts to himself aloud in this section.
R. Why speak aloud, rather than think to himself?

Frodo muses on the Ring’s evil effects “already at work even in the Company”. He says, “Some I cannot trust”. He then names Sam, Merry, Pippin, and Strider as those he can trust.
S. Well? Well??

Frodo, in his soliloquies, justifies his decision to sneak off to Mordor alone, concluding that Sam, at least, “surely … will understand”. And Sam, later in the chapter, will predict this:
‘‘I don’t think you understand my master at all. He isn’t hesitating about which way to go. Of course not! What’s the good of Minas Tirith anyway? To him, I mean… Mr. Frodo, he knows he’s got to find the Cracks of Doom, if he can. … But he’s still too frightened to start. And he isn’t worrying about us either: whether we’ll go along with him or no. He knows we mean to. That’s another thing that’s bothering him. If he screws himself up to go, he’ll want to go alone. Mark my words!’

T. Was Sam correct entirely, or did he mistake any part of Frodo’s thinking or decision?

Frodo puts on the Ring again, to help him evade detection by his fellows as he seeks the boats.
U. How come he dares to do this after just missing being seen or sensed by the Dark Lord?



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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oliphaunt
Lorien


Jun 18 2015, 11:46am

Post #2 of 17 (3207 views)
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Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii to you [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, hi! Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii to you!

B. What do you think about the relative memorability and “importance” of the Hills of Seeing and Hearing in Middle-earth and the legendarium?
Yes, that's what I've always wondered. There are discussions about the Mirror and the Palantirs - we are informed they are "magic". But the events on Amon Hen are left obscure. Is it the Ring, is it the Seat, is it some combination? Aragorn sits there too, and only sees an Eagle, far off. If anyone has the "right", it would be Aragorn. Aragorn later masters the Palantir, but he does not see visions on Amon Hen.

C. Why did Gondor erect these amazing Hearing and Seeing stations, and the colossi of the Argonath, at this point on its borders but (as far as we know: Gap of Rohan, passes of Mordor, etc.) nowhere else? How many projects of that size could they manage?

D. How much do the visions of the War inform Frodo in his actions from now on?
Somewhat off the point, but I was surprised that Frodo found the sight of Minas Tirith so encouraging right after his encounter with Boromir.

E. Should the reader expect to be given more information later, as in fact we are given for the events previewed to the West, South, and East?
Yes, I think there should have been 10,000 pages!

F. How is it that the Eye does not sleep?
Do disincarnate beings ever sleep? Maybe that's why the Eye is looking so red.

G. What would have happened if it had found his exact location?
Would have sent out the Nazgul ahead of schedule.

H. How is it that Frodo cannot know what it is he is crying out loud?
He's under a lot of mental strain from these opposite powers trying to influence him.

I. Why the use of the odd word – very unhobbitlike – “verily” in Frodo’s (possible) submission?
He's being manipulated to think and say it.

J. Is this the first time that Frodo sees the “dark side” in himself regarding the Ring?
He's already had the enemy control him (think Weathertop, and even in the Shire), but this is a further progression.

K. Is there any reader who doesn’t get who this ‘other point of power’ is?
The word "fool" is a give away.

L. Why then doesn’t Frodo get it, even in retrospect?
I can see how it would seem impossible.

M. Are we supposed to make the connection with Amon Lhaw, the Hill of Hearing, across the river, and think that the other power is there?
I never thought of that. But it's Hearing, not Speaking.

N. Can Tolkien be said to favor one over the other, in any sense?
No, they are both powerful. Sauron used images to deceive Saruman and Denethor. Saruman's power is in his voice. Elves songs have a way of reaching people who do not know the language. Galadriel's mirror shows images.

O. What is the cause, or who is the agent, of this ‘sudden’ last-second gift of free will?
He's always had free will. Maybe the One is helping him remember it.

P. How does this moment compare with Frodo’s dilemma in the Barrow, which Gandalf called “touch and go: perhaps the most dangerous moment of all”?
That was the most dangerous moment between Hobbiton and Rivendell. I'm wondering why the Barrow was more dangerous than Weathertop. Maybe because Frodo considered the consequence of leaving Sam Merry and Pippin behind to save himself. Here on Amon Hen he'd be betraying all the Free People.


R. Why speak aloud, rather than think to himself?
When I talk to myself, its a sign that I'm serious. Or seriously irritated.

S. Well? Well??
Never trust an Elf.

T. Was Sam correct entirely, or did he mistake any part of Frodo’s thinking or decision?
Sam adores Frodo, but he is in for a few surprises.

U. How come he dares to do this after just missing being seen or sensed by the Dark Lord?
He did need to be invisible to get out of there. And the Ring is exerting power over, drawing him in.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jun 18 2015, 4:58pm

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In Reply To

K. Is there any reader who doesn’t get who this ‘other point of power’ is?
The word "fool" is a give away.


Until, sometime in the past few years, I was enlightened by the sages of the Reading Room, it had never occurred to me that this was Gandalf. (And, having read the book some 30-40 times, I had plenty of opportunities to have this occur to me). The words attributed to the force do remind one of Gandalf, but I presumed this was due to Frodo remembering him and his words in the past...



Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jun 18 2015, 4:59pm

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Oh, squire's having fun... [In reply to] Can't Post

F. How is it that the Eye does not sleep?
We don’t know the exact constitution of Sauron although we can assume he was at least somewhat carnate. There are people today that can get by on 3 or 4 hours of sleep at night and still function. It’s not too far out to assume that Sauron needed no sleep, or some part of his structure was always ‘awake’ and on guard.

H. How is it that Frodo cannot know what it is he is crying out loud?.
He is under the influence of The Ring and also on Amon Hen which in itself seems to have some influence over the Ringbearer. (More on that thought. . .)

K. Is there any reader who doesn’t get who this ‘other point of power’ is?
I think the very word “fool” gives it away to the observant. One of Gandalf’s favorite words of ‘endearment’…

L. Why then doesn’t Frodo get it, even in retrospect?
I think Frodo “gets it” as he did quickly takes off the Ring; although he may not have “gotten it” to the point of who sent the telepathic msg.

L. Why then doesn’t Frodo get it, even in retrospect?.
Hmm, didn’t he “get it”? He was “free to choose” and after some short indecision he took off The Ring and immediately the view from Amon Hen took on a normalcy.
And as Aragorn felt no mystical experience from Amon Hen should we not assume that The Ring and its Bearer (whomever) in conjunction with being on Amon Hen gave this location its mysterious qualities, whereas the ordinary person (not that Aragorn was normal) would have but a view of “nothing save the distant hills, . . .” (oops, next chapter).

Frodo is torn between “the Voice” and “the Eye”, we are told, before he reacquires his own agency.
M. Are we supposed to make the connection with Amon Lhaw, the Hill of Hearing, across the river, and think that the other power is there?

Interesting! I had never made the connection of Gandalf’s “high place” as possibly being Amon Lhaw, as he was but 9 days from the top of Zirak-zigal.

I had always assumed his high place was in or very near to Fangorn. The time-frame seems more logical this way. (And Gandalf sees Treebeard on Feb. 27 (TT, The White Rider), but a single day from the Breaking of the Fellowship.) And what would he be doing on the eastern side of the lake? Could he have even made it that far in the time allotted ?
Besides, as oliphaunt says Amon Lhaw is hearing not speaking or ‘sending’.

T. Was Sam correct entirely, or did he mistake any part of Frodo’s thinking or decision?
Sam at this point has more horse-sense than the rest of the Fellowship put together.
Even a lowly servant/gardener can have a wisdom beyond the so called intellectual. I know Mensa members who can’t tie their shoes but they can decipher Einstein’s field equations.

Frodo puts on the Ring again, to help him evade detection by his fellows as he seeks the boats.
U. How come he dares to do this after just missing being seen or sensed by the Dark Lord?

A bit-o-luck. He had left Amon Hen and whatever power The Ring and the High Seat together had was nullified? Sides, as you say, he wanted to get away from all whether truly friend (which he didn’t want to put in danger), or possible antagonist (Legolas or Gimli – naw! But Boromir was still alive at this point).

Anyway HERE and NOW Frodo joins the small cabal of the truly heroic.

An sí



noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 18 2015, 8:24pm

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Took me a while too... [In reply to] Can't Post

How many people get it on first reading, I wonder:did anyone begin to wonder whether Gandalf was really dead?

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 18 2015, 8:28pm

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"Frodo is torn between “the Voice” and “the Eye” " [In reply to] Can't Post

There are just too many talent shows in TV Wink

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 18 2015, 8:38pm

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"verily I come" - who says that? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's quite an effective shock that Frodo is not sure whether he's defied the Dark Lord, or is willingly making his way to his capture.

My guess is that we're seeing one of the effects the Ring has on its bearer: it fractures their personality (think of Smeagol/Gollum). I think that we're hearing the part of Frodo that has been corrupted by the Ring here. That is, the part that is like Gollum, not the residual Smeagol.

I wonder whether that has anything to do with Frodo's uncharacteristic talking to himself shortly afterwards?

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jun 18 2015, 10:45pm

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Well, all right, most people say it's Gandalf as 'fool,' does give it away and Gandalf does say as much when we meet him next. Unless of course either of the following two conspiracy theories move anyone.

Gandalf is not too fond of having a title given to him. Especially something like the Voice and in capital letters as well. A bit un-Gandalf like. Of course, someone else has a very pesuasive voice in ME and it has been referred to as his greatest attribute. And has a mythic object to him, the Palantir and sits in a high place were he could perhaps sense a Hobbit with the Ring on. Saruman maybe? Of course, it is not in Saruman's interest's either to have Frodo expose himself to Sauron in that manner.

Isildur. Or possibly Isildur's shade. This is ME in the third age were occasionally ghosts do exist. Now, probably the seat of seeing was created by Isildur, maybe he had a bit of himself left in it. And as he claimed the Ring as well, maybe when Frodo had the Ring on the seat of Kings, the shade of Isildur was capable of giving one last shout.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 19 2015, 3:06pm

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It would be cool to think that Isildur came back to try to right the past. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 19 2015, 9:53pm

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Thanks for leading! [In reply to] Can't Post

A. How are these scenes different, and how are they alike - and more importantly, WHY?

Lothlorien is hidden from Sauron. Tol Brandir is not. And Frodo is now wearing the ring. I’d wager if the ring touched the water of Galadriel’s mirror the visions would have been even more terrifying.

I could say something about the name “Nen Hithoel” and “mist”, but I won’t.


My impression is that most readers remember the Mirror, and the Palantirs, far more than they do Amon Hen as examples of Tolkien’s far-seeing magics in Middle-earth. Yet Frodo’s experience here is quite remarkable and (to me) seriously magical, especially when we consider these Seats are the work of the Dunedain, not the Elves.
B. What do you think about the relative memorability and “importance” of the Hills of Seeing and Hearing in Middle-earth and the legendarium?


They don’t really give any clues the reader can use a priori.


C. Why did Gondor erect these amazing Hearing and Seeing stations, and the colossi of the Argonath, at this point on its borders but (as far as we know: Gap of Rohan, passes of Mordor, etc.) nowhere else?

It’s at the division of the northern and southern kingdoms, thus probably a place for the rulers of Arnor and Gondor to meet, confer, and look into each other’s lands as part of a a power point presentation, not to mention keeping watch on the east: “Just look at the state of the docks of Harlond! We need a bigger appropriation for Gondor public works!” “Oh, yeah? Well, take a look at all the potholes on the Great Road! The road tolls are our biggest moneymaker!” “Uh, guys… Might want to take a peek at that dust cloud in the East. I think wainriders are a’coming.”


D. How much do the visions of the War inform Frodo in his actions from now on?

I can’t see any, but I’ll be interested in what others say.


Some of his visions are of the War fought in the North: the Beornings, Lorien, Mirkwood (fell beasts!!). These episodes do not come into the story again (except once or twice by implication, and also in the Appendices).
E. Should the reader expect to be given more information later, as in fact we are given for the events previewed to the West, South, and East?


Part of the attraction of the L.R. is, I think, due to the glimpses of a large history in the background: an attraction like that of viewing far off an unvisited island, or seeing the towers of a distant city gleaming in a sunlit mist. To go there is to destroy the magic, unless new unattainable vistas are again revealed.
-Letter # 247


F. How is it that the Eye does not sleep?

Maybe the Right Eye of Sauron and the Left Eye of Sauron take turns sleeping.


The Eye is trying to “know just exactly where he is”. It misses Frodo, barely.
G. What would have happened if it had found his exact location?


The Keystone Nazgul accompanied by "Yakety Sax".


From the text:
He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell.

H. How is it that Frodo cannot know what it is he is crying out loud?


For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
-1 Corinthians 14:2


I. Why the use of the odd word – very unhobbitlike – “verily” in Frodo’s (possible) submission?

Cause that’s not Frodo talking.


J. Is this the first time that Frodo sees the “dark side” in himself regarding the Ring?

I’d go with his challenge at the Ford myself, but many people see that as one of Frodo’s finest hours.


Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!

K. Is there any reader who doesn’t get who this ‘other point of power’ is?


Uhhh…..


L. Why then doesn’t Frodo get it, even in retrospect?

Gandalf is dead. If you’re only a little hobbit death is pretty final in concept.


Frodo is torn between “the Voice” and “the Eye”, we are told, before he reacquires his own agency.
M. Are we supposed to make the connection with Amon Lhaw, the Hill of Hearing, across the river, and think that the other power is there?


Makes sense.


The Voice and the Eye: In The Lord of the Rings, both spoken words and voices, and visual images and sights, are presented at times as having great power.
N. Can Tolkien be said to favor one over the other, in any sense?


You’re asking that about a philologist?


Writhing in torture, pierced and torn apart, Frodo is ‘suddenly … free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so.’
O. What is the cause, or who is the agent, of this ‘sudden’ last-second gift of free will?


I’d think the balancing point cancelled each other out for a brief moment.


P. How does this moment compare with Frodo’s dilemma in the Barrow, which Gandalf called “touch and go: perhaps the most dangerous moment of all”?

There he almost left his friends to their deaths. Here he leaves his friends to their lives.


Frodo proclaims aloud, “I will do now what I must. … I will go alone. At once.”
Q. Compare his formal tone and diction here to his more famous line later on: ‘I have come, but I do not choose now to do what I came to do.’


One shows the victory of Frodo over the Ring, the other shows the Ring’s victory over Frodo.


As in the example just given, Frodo repeatedly speaks his thoughts to himself aloud in this section.
R. Why speak aloud, rather than think to himself?


Supposedly speaking thoughts/experiences/ideas/whatever aloud impresses them more firmly in your brain. Plus it often helps your resolve.

Also speaking loudly in the woods can scare off animals, but somehow I don’t think it would work too well in this neck of Middle-earth.


Frodo muses on the Ring’s evil effects “already at work even in the Company”. He says, “Some I cannot trust”. He then names Sam, Merry, Pippin, and Strider as those he can trust.
S. Well? Well??


Never trust an Elf. As for trusting The Dwarf, that goes without saying.


T. Was Sam correct entirely, or did he mistake any part of Frodo’s thinking or decision?

Pert much on the nose.


Frodo puts on the Ring again, to help him evade detection by his fellows as he seeks the boats.
U. How come he dares to do this after just missing being seen or sensed by the Dark Lord?


He’s not looking through some magic power magnifier this time. Besides, the Eye was last known going west on a wild hobbit chase. It’ll take a while before it considers doubling back.


Thanks for leading! Stimulating as always!

******************************************

I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jun 19 2015, 10:54pm

Post #11 of 17 (3112 views)
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Well, I suppose he would know, wouldn't he? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


squire
Half-elven


Jun 22 2015, 3:01am

Post #12 of 17 (3080 views)
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“Verily, verily, I am saying to you” [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought the 'verily' usage had a religious tone, and having looked it up, I see it does. It is a stock term in the King James Bible, most often in the phrase "Verily I say unto you..." at the beginning of something Jesus tells his disciples. It turns out this is a translation choice for the formulaic Greek word amen (ἀμὴν), which carries the general meaning of "truly" or "so let it be" or "without possibility of a doubt".

So when Frodo says Verily I come, I come to you we get a number of messages. First, I think, we learn that Sauron is a god, who aspires to be God. The part of Frodo that is enslaved to the Ring and its Lord is worshipping Sauron here, promising to reveal, deliver, and surrender the Ring with the fervor of a devout convert. Second, by echoing the language of Christ we get a sense of the sheer profanity of Sauron's aspirations to turn devilry into divinity. In later writings and letters Tolkien developed strongly his idea that Sauron encouraged the Middle-earth equivalent of the Black Mass: His minions in the East (and in Numenor) sacrificed to him or his master Morgoth, the devil, as a mockery of Eru the One. Finally, it is Frodo who is speaking here as Christ spoke, but at this moment his mission and sacrifice and martyrdom are about to go horribly wrong, as the irony of this word choice helps make clear.



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squire
Half-elven


Jun 22 2015, 3:05am

Post #13 of 17 (3077 views)
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I love those ideas! [In reply to] Can't Post

The Voice as either Saruman or Isildur! Cool!

But, of course unlikely to the point of impossibility, given Gandalf's account of the episode to the Three Hunters later in the story:
'Very nearly [the Ring] was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed.' - LotR III.5




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sador
Half-elven


Jun 30 2015, 2:18pm

Post #14 of 17 (2968 views)
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Lemme see... [In reply to] Can't Post

A. How are these scenes different, and how are they alike - and more importantly, WHY?
They seem to be all important to the war strategy.

This is the Hill of Seeing of the King of Gondor; this is what he is supposed to look for.

B. What do you think about the relative memorability and “importance” of the Hills of Seeing and Hearing in Middle-earth and the legendarium?
Well, the visions here are less personal, and are not directly connected to Frodo and the Quest. It is easy to overlook them in this chapter, which is full of drama as is.

C. Why did Gondor erect these amazing Hearing and Seeing stations, and the colossi of the Argonath, at this point on its borders but (as far as we know: Gap of Rohan, passes of Mordor, etc.) nowhere else?
In a way, this is the only border it recognised (with Arnor). But a
rguably, this refers only to the Argonath.

I have always thought Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw's magical attributes preceded the seats. Ddeicated to Manwe and Varda somehow? I don't know.


D. How much do the visions of the War inform Frodo in his actions from now on?
Hardly. They only give a sense of urgency.
Which is why most readers fail to appreciate the magic (as you've asked in question B).

E. Should the reader expect to be given more information later, as in fact we are given for the events previewed to the West, South, and East?
Well, I'm not sure the reader has any right to expect all the gaps will be filled. And Tolkien love to leave several questions open.

By the way, how can Frodo see in all four directions? Is this a rotating chair, or is it just a seat with no back?



F. How is it that the Eye does not sleep?
Never tired. Beats Elves every time.

G. What would have happened if it had found his exact location?
I suppose Frodo would be transfixed, and compelled somehow to escape and deliver himslef to the Nazgul.

H. How is it that Frodo cannot know what it is he is crying out loud?
The Ring is taking over; do you think Frodo knew what he saids to Gollum on the slopes of Mount Doom?


I. Why the use of the odd word – very unhobbitlike – “verily” in Frodo’s (possible) submission?
It is the Ring speaking to its Master.

By the way, 'Amen' is Hebrew.

J. Is this the first time that Frodo sees the “dark side” in himself regarding the Ring?

I like Darkstone's theory about the Brandywine crossing, but I'm not quite sure.

And even before that, there was the temptation in the Barrow. Where, and who, did that come from?

K. Is there any reader who doesn’t get who this ‘other point of power’ is?
Me!

(When it was pointed out to me, I did kick myself)

L. Why then doesn’t Frodo get it, even in retrospect?
Why do you think he doesn't? At the moment he has no reason to think Gandalf was alive; but once he found out that Gandalf had returned, in the Field of Cormallen - perhaps he did.

M. Are we supposed to make the connection with Amon Lhaw, the Hill of Hearing, across the river, and think that the other power is there?
No. Frodo hears where he is, atop Amon Hen.
Are you suggesting Gandalf spoke somewhere else, but his voice was received and amplified by Amon Lhaw? I don't think so.

By the way - originally, Tolkien intended Gandalf to sit on Tol Brandir.

N. Can Tolkien be said to favor one over the other, in any sense?
Images with his sight, sounds with his ears, of course.

But no, I wouldn't say any single sense is "privileged". Tolkien tries to convey a complete sensory experience - he have descriptions of scents and tastes, and even tactile feelings.

O. What is the cause, or who is the agent, of this ‘sudden’ last-second gift of free will?
Eru, of course.
But was it was the free will he was naturally endowed with, and hadn't been all sapped out of him yet, or a special Grace given now? I can't say.

P. How does this moment compare with Frodo’s dilemma in the Barrow, which Gandalf called “touch and go: perhaps the most dangerous moment of all”?
Ah, GMAT!
But yes, he was near to making an irreversible mistake there; as he was now.

Q. Compare his formal tone and diction here to his more famous line later on: ‘I have come, but I do not choose now to do what I came to do.’
In Mount Doom he speaks in the past; the present is negative, "I do not choose to do", not "I choose not to do".

Here Frodo still has his freedom to choose. So he declares what he will do.

R. Why speak aloud, rather than think to himself?
It formalises the thought, and makes it binding.

S. Well? Well??
Well, he was wrong about Sam - even if not by too much.
I am sure the others would fall into evil sooner.

But then, Frodo himself didn't exactly pass the test with flying colours, did he?

T. Was Sam correct entirely, or did he mistake any part of Frodo’s thinking or decision?
Well, he didn't consider the mistrust Frodo felt.
But he did not know in advance of the two narrow escapes Frodo had.
At what stage do you think Frodo told him?

U. How come he dares to do this after just missing being seen or sensed by the Dark Lord?
Well, the Ring did leave its mark; he begins feeling distrustful of others, and trsuts in himself to be able to take it off in time.

Which makes me wonder, had Sam not fallen into the River - would Frodo have taken the Ring off again?
What do you think?




squire
Half-elven


Jun 30 2015, 7:56pm

Post #15 of 17 (2960 views)
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"Had Sam not fallen into the River - would Frodo have taken the Ring off again?" [In reply to] Can't Post

I LOVE that question!

All I had focused on was the possibly inappropriate use of the Ring for semi-comic effect, for and getting away when part of the getaway kit remains visible.

But as you caught, Frodo is assuming no one is going to catch him before he gets away. So yes - when would he, or even would he at all - have taken off the Ring once over the River and onto the eastern shore, heading closer and closer to Mordor from then on?

I guess our best guide is that Sam, later on, easily takes off the Ring in order to see more clearly, when he is much closer to Mordor in Cirith Ungol. On the other hand, Sam at that later point will have only borne the Ring for a brief time, whereas Frodo at this present point in the story has carried it a lot longer, and has several times been tempted by its evil to use it for bad purposes, or even to surrender it to Sauron.



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noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 1 2015, 4:03pm

Post #16 of 17 (2945 views)
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bravo! I'd never thought of that! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jul 1 2015, 4:16pm

Post #17 of 17 (2943 views)
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"I will now do what I must" Frodo as a mirror-image of Gollum? [In reply to] Can't Post

"I will now do what I must" says Frodo on Amon Hen

Prof Verlyn Flieger (in an essay 'Fate And free will in Middle-earth, from 'Green suns and Faerie, Kent State University Press, 2012) suggests that this sentence of Frodo's should be parsed as "I now desire to follow my fate". She contasts it with what Gandalf says of Gollum, in response to the news at the Council of Elrond that Gollum has escaped. Then, Gandalf says of Gollum "He must do what he will". That could read as 'I don't care what he does' but Prof Flieger suggests it should be construed as "he is fated to follow his desire"

"Will" has a few senses in English, of course. I remember an English friend of mine in conversation with a man whose mother tongue was German, & who was kindly suggesting a walk up the mountain as a splendid activity for my friend. The German ended "Good! Tomorrow you will go up the mountain and you will enjoy yourself!" he meant it as a prediction, of course, and a reflection of his satisfaction that he'd been able to help a fellow tourist. Perhaps he had not realised it sounded like a command. Prof Flieger's argument relies on the assumption that Tolkien is using one of the meanings of 'will' very precisely, which seems feasible if unprovable to me.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154

 
 

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