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Some quests about Silmarillion

Konrad S
Lorien

Jun 17 2015, 6:24am

Post #1 of 20 (2213 views)
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Some quests about Silmarillion Can't Post

1 First is Finwe high king of noldor, soon Feanor, Soon Maedhros but he gives the heir to Fingolfin, soon Fingon, soon Turgon, Soon Gilgalad so if Gilgalad is son of Fingon , why should Turgon be king, u have answear that, he was with the sindar and Cirdan and not many was sure that he was alive. But if Gilgalad is the son of Odoreth then he is evil and take the throne from the heir of Fingolfin. We look at the house of Finarfin, Finarfin blonde hair, Eärwen Blonde, Finrod, Aegnor, Angrod and Galadriel Blonde,Eldalótë unknow , Celeborn Blonde, Orodreth and Finduilas Blonde. Celebrían Blonde or Silver and Gilgalad BLACK why should he was from house of Finarfin? Next if he is from house of Finarfin, why should he get the throne after Turgon maybe Girls cannot be Queens or Kings but boys can be both, and Tuor is an man, but Eärendil he is half Elf and Elrond can be king/ lord after Gilgalad and after that should it go to The great House of Feanor they are oldest and when Turgon die, is Maedhros, Maglor, Celegorm, Curufin, Charanthir, Amrod and/or Amras and Celebrimbor. On the third age is some nobels still alive Thranduil, Elrond, Glorfindel, Cirdan and Galadriel. The Right heir should be Elrond Thranduil is Sindar, cirdan is Sindar, Galadriel is in House of finarfin and rule with and sindar and Silvian realm. Glorfindel was never in the house of Finwe so what i think is that Gilgalad is son of Fingon.



To the last when Dior have stoolen one silmaril he know that Sons of feanor have the oath, but he still dont give it back to Sons of Feanor why is that not little Greedy for an elf he risk his pepole to die. Only bechause he is Greedy and want the Silmaril. I tought they where wise they also eat Dwarfs the think they are Dears.


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jun 17 2015, 8:08am

Post #2 of 20 (2183 views)
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In the case of Dior [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember that his father and his mother, Beren and Luthien, won the jewel from Morgoth with precious little help from the sons of Feanor and he might well resent having to lose the jewel after all that they had done.


Konrad S
Lorien

Jun 17 2015, 8:13am

Post #3 of 20 (2182 views)
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A Jewel, that belonging to someone other or his own and his pepoles death. [In reply to] Can't Post

Did Tolkien mentioned something that he is like mentally ill?


Nerven
Rivendell

Jun 17 2015, 12:49pm

Post #4 of 20 (2162 views)
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. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote

In Reply To
1 First is Finwe high king of noldor, soon Feanor, Soon Maedhros but he gives the heir to Fingolfin, soon Fingon, soon Turgon, Soon Gilgalad so if Gilgalad is son of Fingon , why should Turgon be king, u have answear that, he was with the sindar and Cirdan and not many was sure that he was alive. But if Gilgalad is the son of Odoreth then he is evil and take the throne from the heir of Fingolfin. We look at the house of Finarfin, Finarfin blonde hair, Eärwen Blonde, Finrod, Aegnor, Angrod and Galadriel Blonde,Eldalótë unknow , Celeborn Blonde, Orodreth and Finduilas Blonde. Celebrían Blonde or Silver and Gilgalad BLACK why should he was from house of Finarfin? Next if he is from house of Finarfin, why should he get the throne after Turgon maybe Girls cannot be Queens or Kings but boys can be both, and Tuor is an man, but Eärendil he is half Elf and Elrond can be king/ lord after Gilgalad and after that should it go to The great House of Feanor they are oldest and when Turgon die, is Maedhros, Maglor, Celegorm, Curufin, Charanthir, Amrod and/or Amras and Celebrimbor. On the third age is some nobels still alive Thranduil, Elrond, Glorfindel, Cirdan and Galadriel. The Right heir should be Elrond Thranduil is Sindar, cirdan is Sindar, Galadriel is in House of finarfin and rule with and sindar and Silvian realm. Glorfindel was never in the house of Finwe so what i think is that Gilgalad is son of Fingon.



Celeborn has silver hair, as well as Earwen and Celebrian. I´m not sure Gil Galads hair colour was ever mentioned.

Tuor couldn´t become the king because he would soon die and is not a descendant of the king (well he is the husband of the kings dauighter Idril, but I doubt that would make it possible for him to be king of the Noldor), Earendil was more on the sea than on land and Elronds claim would be through Idril but in elven society that doesn´t count, you have to be the son of the son of that particular line, so at the end only Gil Galad was left.
As for Gil Galads line, Tolkiens last world on the matter was that he was of the house of Finarfin and I agree and it´s a nice parallel, in Aman Finarfin is king of the Noldor and in ME his great grandchild Gil Galad is.

Feanors house (the not so great one imo) have no claim either "The Dispossessed shall they be for ever" and Meadros gave the kingship to the house of Fingolfin when Fingon, I believe, saved him from the cliff.

Dior had a right to the Silmarils, after all HIS parents were able to get them from Morgoths crown, Feanors sons lost all rights to the gems, they were not worthy anymore, the stones were burning them anyway, because only pure people could touch them.


(This post was edited by Nerven on Jun 17 2015, 12:55pm)


Konrad S
Lorien

Jun 17 2015, 4:32pm

Post #5 of 20 (2147 views)
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Yeah sure dior parents where big evil theifs that took the Jewel. [In reply to] Can't Post

And this i say the Greatest of the 3 houses was Feanor Finarfin did left hes sons and daugther to die in middle earth and Dior had no freaking right to the Jewel and then we know that the gem burned in thingols hand and hes heir bechause they where no pure souls. For now im sure Gilgalad son of Fingon and Dior did so Sons of Feanor lost their honor. Dior had as much claim of that jewel taht Morgoth had. Rip House of Feanor the greatest of the houses.

I hate that Dior.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 17 2015, 4:56pm

Post #6 of 20 (2142 views)
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Beren and Luthien were big, evil thieves? [In reply to] Can't Post

Please, tell me that you wrote that with tongue firmly planted in cheek! Beren took the silmaril from Morgoth who stole the jewels in the first place. If you have an issue, it should be with Thingol, I think.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Konrad S
Lorien

Jun 17 2015, 6:32pm

Post #7 of 20 (2135 views)
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Nah still hate Beren and Luthien but i love Sons of Feanor [In reply to] Can't Post

I hate them all Thingol,Beren, Luthien, Dior, Elwing, Oropher and Thranduil. Legolas is okay and so Eärandil.


Nerven
Rivendell

Jun 17 2015, 9:19pm

Post #8 of 20 (2124 views)
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. [In reply to] Can't Post

How can one hate Luthien? She´s like the purest thing ever, OK her marysue-ishness is a bit annoying at times.

Thingol really had no claim but I doubt the gems were burning his hands, he was surely prud and rash but he wasn´t evil, unlike Feanor and his sons, mudering thousands of people, Celegorm and Caranthir (or their servanrs, dunno) leaving 2 poor little babys into the woods to die or Celegorm wanting Luthien as his wife by force and then after been denied shooting at her, really those guys are the most evil elves ever IMO. The only one who seems to be an exception is Maglor who cared for Elrond.

OK, so you hate all those elves you listed, what about Elrond and Galadriel?


(This post was edited by Nerven on Jun 17 2015, 9:21pm)


Konrad S
Lorien

Jun 18 2015, 6:19am

Post #9 of 20 (2084 views)
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Galadriel i like her in third age but not in first. [In reply to] Can't Post

And they had an oath they had to they could only do peace to give the jewel. Where in silmarillion do they kill to babys?


BlackFox
Half-elven


Jun 18 2015, 7:55am

Post #10 of 20 (2081 views)
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During the Sack of Doriath [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But Dior returned no answer to the sons of Fëanor; and Celegorm stirred up his brothers to prepare an assault upon Doriath. They came at unawares in the middle of winter, and fought with Dior in the Thousand Caves; and so befell the second slaying of Elf by Elf. There fell Celegorm by Dior's hand, and there fell Curufin, and dark Caranthir; but Dior was slain also, and Nimloth his wife, and the cruel servants of Celegorm seized his young sons and left them to starve in the forest. Of this Maedhros indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing, and of the fate of Eluréd and Elurín no tale tells.
- Of the Ruin of Doriath




Konrad S
Lorien

Jun 18 2015, 9:49am

Post #11 of 20 (2076 views)
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They tryed to find the kids dont kill them. [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Nerven
Rivendell

Jun 18 2015, 10:11am

Post #12 of 20 (2073 views)
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OK, it seems that it were not Feanors sons who left the babys to starve in the woods but their servants and Maedhros repented quikly but I´m not sure about Celegrom.
I often wonder how their mother Nerdanel felt, Feanor forever in Mandos, her sons maybe too for a long time and then the crimes they did, I agree there was a curse and if they would not obey to it, they would have eternal darkness (or somethng along the lines) but they never fulfilled their oath and it seems that they still have only darkness arond them, like Maglor wandering the shores of the World, singing laments for his despair and regret.That´s really sad.

Why don´t you like Galadriel in the first age, she was pretty cool then.


Konrad S
Lorien

Jun 18 2015, 10:24am

Post #13 of 20 (2069 views)
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Umm [In reply to] Can't Post

But the sons of feanor had no choice they had sworn to Iluvatar, dior had a choice, Thingol had, near all other had. But dont Sons of Feanor


And i dont like Galadriel in the first age bechause she hated Feanor


(This post was edited by Konrad S on Jun 18 2015, 10:34am)


BlackFox
Half-elven


Jun 18 2015, 10:55am

Post #14 of 20 (2067 views)
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They did have a choice [In reply to] Can't Post

They made it when they swore the oath.



Konrad S
Lorien

Jun 18 2015, 11:10am

Post #15 of 20 (2061 views)
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Ummmm no.... [In reply to] Can't Post

But they still dont knowed that their fellow elfs would such ascrazy, stupid and evil thing.


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 19 2015, 1:21pm

Post #16 of 20 (2022 views)
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primosomethingorother [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
1 First is Finwe high king of noldor, soon Feanor, Soon Maedhros but he gives the heir to Fingolfin, soon Fingon, soon Turgon, Soon Gilgalad so if Gilgalad is son of Fingon, why should Turgon be king, u have answear that, he was with the sindar and Cirdan and not many was sure that he was alive.



Or (another possibility) Turgon is older. See below.



Quote
But if Gilgalad is the son of Odoreth then he is evil and take the throne from the heir of Fingolfin. We look at the house of Finarfin, Finarfin blonde hair, Eärwen Blonde, Finrod, Aegnor, Angrod and Galadriel Blonde, Eldalótë unknow, Celeborn Blonde, Orodreth and Finduilas Blonde. Celebrían Blonde or Silver and Gilgalad BLACK why should he was from house of Finarfin?



Does Tolkien describe Gil-galad's hair anywhere?


Quote
Next if he is from house of Finarfin, why should he get the throne after Turgon maybe Girls cannot be Queens or Kings but boys can be both, and Tuor is an man, but Eärendil he is half Elf and Elrond can be king/ lord after Gilgalad and after that should it go to The great House of Feanor they are oldest and when Turgon die, is Maedhros, Maglor, Celegorm, Curufin, Charanthir, Amrod and/or Amras and Celebrimbor. On the third age is some nobels still alive Thranduil, Elrond, Glorfindel, Cirdan and Galadriel. The Right heir should be Elrond Thranduil is Sindar, cirdan is Sindar, Galadriel is in House of finarfin and rule with and sindar and Silvian realm. Glorfindel was never in the house of Finwe so what i think is that Gilgalad is son of Fingon.



I've posted this before here (it's a collection from posts by Solicitr, all from another forum). Folks don't have to agree with it necessarily, but I like it...



Quote
'An observation on 'male primogeniture:' I don't think it quite fits the given accounts (any of them) to impose the Salic Law on the Eldarin royal houses. The more I revolve the claim of kingship as it in fact passed (and didn't pass), the more I am convinced that Kingship among the Elves could pass in the female line, but not to a female: she would preserve it for her male descendants. If this is the case then it makes perfect sense why Dior is Thingol's Heir, not Luthien; that Earendil son of Idril rules at the Havens (and that his wife Elwing was not "Queen" of the Sindarin majority there), and that T[olkien] never even considers Galadriel as being a claimant. (Perhaps one reason he dumped Amroth as G & C's son is that Amroth would have suddenly become a claimant- instead, G has a daughter, who has a daughter...whose son Eldarion 'scion of Elves' is considerd the ruler of Middle-earth's remaining Eldar.).

(...) I think that may be it precisely: seniority in age was what mattered, rather than line of descent. G-G was older than Earendil. After all, the Elves' quasi-immortality poses a real problem for the traditional Mannish system of lineal primogeniture -- there's always a chance that a child from a senior line to the reigning King could pop up.

(...) Perhaps the law was simply "the eldest male member of the Royal House in Middle-earth." Elves didn't have to worry about an older generation being short-lived! Therefore Turgon would come before GG, no matter who GG's father was, and GG would then be senior to Earendil.'

Solicitr




In any case, in Tolkien's changing imagination Gil-galad was a Finarfinian before he was a Fingolfinian... and then ultimately switched back to Finarfin's house.


Konrad S
Lorien

Jun 19 2015, 3:28pm

Post #17 of 20 (2010 views)
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That with the hair... [In reply to] Can't Post

Shhh! Okay he have black hair in the films so he have black hair in the books. Like Legolas has blonde hair in the book he also has it in the film. So now we leave that point. Gilgalad have black hair.


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 20 2015, 12:33pm

Post #18 of 20 (1953 views)
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I assume you are having a bit of fun here... [In reply to] Can't Post

... as the films cannot settle canonical hair colour of course. They have to choose a colour obviously, if they are going to show a person's hair. Anyway for example, Legolas' hair colour in the books is unknown despite a tantalizing description of his dark head...

... that is, his dark head in certain conditions (darkness or dim light).

And despite that his father Thranduil is golden haired in the books.


PhantomS
Rohan


Jun 25 2015, 4:06pm

Post #19 of 20 (1849 views)
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I can imagine [In reply to] Can't Post

Gilgalad shaving his head and telling Elendil "This'll end all the speculation..."

if no one can agree to what his hair color is, he might as well go bald. Not many of those in Middle Earth@


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jul 2 2015, 10:31am

Post #20 of 20 (1769 views)
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Another golden elf [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, we know that Gil-galad ended up being a Finarfinian, and if we take the lead from Appendix F, that most of the Eldar were dark-haired except the golden House of Finarfin... well I think it would be odd for Gil-galad to be dark-haired.

There is really no argument that Tolkien's last word on Gil-galad was that he was a Finarfinian. Christopher Tolkien says so, it's just that his father -- as with various other late ideas -- never really revised the Quenta Silmarillion with this woven in, but that's what happens with the author passing before all his latest ideas get incorporated into the "finished" version of things.

Where the disagreement comes from, is whether or not this was the "best" or correct decision, and as we see, discussion arises as to the laws or customs of becoming king.

My only "problem" with Gil-galad as a Finafinian concerns the Fall of Nargothrond (Gil-galad becomes brother to Finduilas) and the Turin element (Turin's great influence on policy in Nargothrond), but I'm not saying Tolkien couldn't have dealt with the issue...

... I'm only saying he would have to; keeping in mind that JRRT was quite free to alter things that had not, from his perspective, appeared in print yet. For example, if Finduilas tells Turin that she has no brother some people say the idea "doesn't work"...

... I say, well yes that "wouldn't" work; but Tolkien only needs to change this! In theory, the reader would never know she had said anything of the sort in the first place.

 
 

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